Iranian Air Defense Systems

[PeeD]

You keep mentioning “cost effectiveness” but you do not provide the cost difference between your theory (GaA TRMs) and the alternative(s).

To me just going off of cost effectiveness does not always make sense when speak about a military and an asset that is ment to counter your enemies greatest air asset (5th gen fighters).

Nazi Germany was famous for disregarding cost effectiveness in certain projects for sheer maximum capability. (Now wether that was right or wrong is beside the point).

So I would be curious to see what these cost differences you cite are so that readers can draw their own conclusions.

The alternatives are GaN TRMs in a country that is heavily sanctioned.
These are semiconductor chips, alone producing GaN wafers is a huge achievement for Iran and its import and cooperation restrictions.

So the situation is this:
- You have enough space for your array? Build a larger array instead of a more powerful TRM one (can't do that on a fighters nose)
- You have enough means to cool your array? Go for TRMs that have higher cooling requirements (less advanced).
- You can use L- or S-band TRMs instead of X-band? Go for it, it will be 30-50% cheaper.
- Your TRM's make 50% of whole system cost? Try to get it as low as possible.
- Finally your radar is 30% cheaper? Get 3 for every 2 ordered, 3rd Khordad TELAR.
+ all other dynamic factors.

Never fall in a technological trap where something is claimed to be absolute necessary (GaN) but your requirements are satisfied with a technology that costs lets say 1/3 of that. Iran is not dominated by a capitalist defense industry and should never be: Buy whats gets the job done not whats best in the market.

Honestly I'm confused by the 3rd Khordad radar, I have still serious doubts whether it is an AESA. PESA would be much more cost effective in this application... I just don't see a monopulse feed system...

an asset that is ment to counter your enemies greatest air asset (5th gen fighters).

I personally think the 3rd Khordad can do that. I outlined U.S claims about stealth, but my view is closer to the Russian side: Ground based radars will detect 5th gen stealth fighter targets at an average RCS of 0,5m² or -3dB.
Still I think that the 3rd Khordad is not the ideal choice against highest performing stealth assets, the IRGC specially developed the Najm-SD-2 system to counter those. Plus Najm series could be linked with the 3rd Khordad to give it added anti-VLO capabilities.

 

[Sineva]

The alternatives are GaN TRMs in a country that is heavily sanctioned.
These are semiconductor chips, alone producing GaN wafers is a huge achievement for Iran and its import and cooperation restrictions.

So the situation is this:
- You have enough space for your array? Build a larger array instead of a more powerful TRM one (can't do that on a fighters nose)
- You have enough means to cool your array? Go for TRMs that have higher cooling requirements (less advanced).
- You can use L- or S-band TRMs instead of X-band? Go for it, it will be 30-50% cheaper.
- Your TRM's make 50% of whole system cost? Try to get it as low as possible.
- Finally your radar is 30% cheaper? Get 3 for every 2 ordered, 3rd Khordad TELAR.
+ all other dynamic factors.

Never fall in a technological trap where something is claimed to be absolute necessary (GaN) but your requirements are satisfied with a technology that costs lets say 1/3 of that. Iran is not dominated by a capitalist defense industry and should never be: Buy whats gets the job done not whats best in the market.

Honestly I'm confused by the 3rd Khordad radar, I have still serious doubts whether it is an AESA. PESA would be much more cost effective in this application... I just don't see a monopulse feed system...



I personally think the 3rd Khordad can do that. I outlined U.S claims about stealth, but my view is closer to the Russian side: Ground based radars will detect 5th gen stealth fighter targets at an average RCS of 0,5m² or -3dB.
Still I think that the 3rd Khordad is not the ideal choice against highest performing stealth assets, the IRGC specially developed the Najm-SD-2 system to counter those. Plus Najm series could be linked with the 3rd Khordad to give it added anti-VLO capabilities.

Sounds like the old quote:
"Good enough is the enemy of perfect."

 

[Draco.IMF]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1144571341045227526

 

[TheImmortal]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1144571341045227526

The same Dmitry Medvedev that gave the order not supplying Iran with S-300?

Iran should pass on S-400 and move to S-500. Turkey’s S-400 systems will supposedly be delivered by end of year. But the S-300 iran order is more in line with s-400 anyway.

Of course in my opinions Iran ordered too few S-300. So an S-400 can reinforce the air defense network, S-500 would be even better.

Not sure Iran has the resources for either right now.

 

[Draco.IMF]

The same Dmitry Medvedev that gave the order not supplying Iran with S-300?

Iran should pass on S-400 and move to S-500. Turkey’s S-400 systems will supposedly be delivered by end of year. But the S-300 iran order is more in line with s-400 anyway.

Of course in my opinions Iran ordered too few S-300. So an S-400 can reinforce the air defense network, S-500 would be even better.

Not sure Iran has the resources for either right now.

maybe Iran can pay with Oil

 

[PeeD]

The recent news about national projects among which air defense was one of the points should be a clear message: Additional funds will be allocated to air defense and it seems the reason is the formation of a new LR-SAM backbone via the Bavar-373.
Form what is known, Bavar-373 could outperform the S-400 in at least some fields.
Since it is a "national project" scale project, a significant number can be expected in the next few years.

 

[TheImmortal]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1143548517170012160

 

[925boy]

The same Dmitry Medvedev that gave the order not supplying Iran with S-300?

Iran should pass on S-400 and move to S-500. Turkey’s S-400 systems will supposedly be delivered by end of year. But the S-300 iran order is more in line with s-400 anyway.

Of course in my opinions Iran ordered too few S-300. So an S-400 can reinforce the air defense network, S-500 would be even better.

LMAO @ you saying(rightly) that Russia via Medvedev didnt allow S300s into Iran for a while....then you go on to say IRan should get S500 instead of S400? how can you expect to get/ask for S500 when you are already insecure about getting S400? hmmm.

Not sure Iran has the resources for either right now.

Why? Do you think Iranian govt doesnt have $2-5bn now to pay for these hypothetical S400s?

S400 is turning into the developing world's trusted, reliable,affordable(relatively)tool to stop all regime change operations via air attacks by western powers. world has changed. If Russia turns on S400 over all of syria, Israel will stop doing flights over Syria. facts.

 

[TheImmortal]

LMAO @ you saying(rightly) that Russia via Medvedev didnt allow S300s into Iran for a while....then you go on to say IRan should get S500 instead of S400? how can you expect to get/ask for S500 when you are already insecure about getting S400? hmmm.


Why? Do you think Iranian govt doesnt have $2-5bn now to pay for these hypothetical S400s?

S400 is turning into the developing world's trusted, reliable,affordable(relatively)tool to stop all regime change operations via air attacks by western powers. world has changed. If Russia turns on S400 over all of syria, Israel will stop doing flights over Syria. facts.

You must have reading comprehension problems.

First the S-300 Iran ordered is a custom variant as S-300 assembly line no longer existed when Russia began delivery to Iran. Thus Iranian s-300 shares many similarities with S-400, so why would you get something that you pretty much already have?

Also I said IF Iran is going to go for an air defense system it should go for S-500 because it incorporates ABM protection which is something that Iran could learn from.

Either way I’m not optimistic about Russia delivering S-400 or S-500 to Iran. And it’s not because either system is sugh a game changer that it would shift the entire balance of power. No, it’s because It seems Russia is trying to get some leverage on US by playing the Iran weapons card.

Lastly Iran doesn’t have 2-3 billion to just throw at a system that probably won’t be delivered till late 2020 at the earliest and possibly longer if Russia drags its feet.

Iran is currently under severe sanctions where it is losing billions a month in lost oil revenue. So no, Iran isn’t going to tap the war chest unless absolutely necessary. I don’t know if S-400/S-500 is absolutely necessary at this point in time.

 

[skyshadow]

IRGC air defence force Najm802A radar. this radar links with 6 missile launcher and each launcher carry 4 missiles so each battalion has 24 missiles.

 

[Mithridates]

IRGC air defence force Najm802A radar. this radar links with 6 missile launcher and each launcher carry 4 missiles so each battalion has 24 missiles.

it's great.

 

[AmirPatriot]

The recent news about national projects among which air defense was one of the points should be a clear message: Additional funds will be allocated to air defense and it seems the reason is the formation of a new LR-SAM backbone via the Bavar-373.
Form what is known, Bavar-373 could outperform the S-400 in at least some fields.
Since it is a "national project" scale project, a significant number can be expected in the next few years.

In what aspects? While from your analyses you have indicated that Iranian AESAs are more advanced and efficient than their PESA counterparts, I do worry at how low-power they seem to be, which could make them vulnerable to jamming and longer range detection against stealth aircraft. I'm also surprised at how few targets some modern systems like 15 Khordad can engage (6 simultaneously), whereas the S-300's Tomb Stone radar is much more capable, capable of engaging 36 simultaneously.

EDIT: The Tomb Stone can engage 6 targets with 12 missiles. Range and simultaneously tracked targets remain important though.

 

[skyshadow]

Meraj_4 3D radar

range: 500+ KM

tracking targets: up to 200 targets

Vostok 3D radar

range: 360 KM

Najm_802 A

range: unknown

engaging targets simultaneously: up to 3 target simultaneously

unknown Iranian air defense system ( probably 3th of Khordad )

 

[arashkamangir]

In what aspects? While from your analyses you have indicated that Iranian AESAs are more advanced and efficient than their PESA counterparts, I do worry at how low-power they seem to be, which could make them vulnerable to jamming and longer range detection against stealth aircraft. I'm also surprised at how few targets some modern systems like 15 Khordad can engage (6 simultaneously), whereas the S-300's Tomb Stone radar is much more capable, capable of engaging 36 simultaneously.

The S-300PMU2 can engage up to 6 targets simultaneously while providing guidance for up to 12 missiles - two missiles per target ensuring target kill.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/s-3...e_missile_system_technical_data_sheet_uk.html

 

[skyshadow]

3th of Khordad with global hawk MQ_4 kill mark

3th of Khordad Command and Control Center