Iran-Pakistan. The past, now and future.

[Indus Pakistan]

I won't hide the fact that Iran is my favourite country. The other is Turkey. However Turkey is like a good friend that is about to move away and you know your not going to see much of again but you still bid them farewell and wish the best. The reason is future of Turkey is in Europe. Sooner or later she will be accepted into the European Community and suddenly the Turk/Iranian border will be Europes new frontier.

The intention behind this thread is have a broad look into the history of the ancient peoples of Persia (Iran) and Indus Valley (Pakistan) and then look into the future. From this point on when I use the term "Pakistan" please consider that it refers to the historical Indus Valley region. I can say categorically that Iran has had more effect on Pakistan than any other country in the world. Even today despite the difficult relations we have had since 1979 Pakistan is the only country in the world where the public had favourable opinion on Iran.

"According to a new PEW survey, Pakistan is the only country polled where a majority (57%) views Iran - the country with the world's largest Shia Muslim population— favourably".

Pakistan only country where majority views Iran positively: PEW - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
Iran’s Global Image Mostly Negative | Pew Research Center

The fact is Iran and Pakistan are neighbours. There is just a line dividing us on the Taftan border point. This is geographic reality. When you move east from Iran into South Asia the first land you step into is Indus Valley or Pakistan. Indeed what the Ancient Persians called "Hind" was in fact Indus Valley or today's Pakistan. The name "Hind" was derived from the Indus River in Pakistan. The River was called "Sindhu" from where the Persians derived "Hind" from.

Therefore when Ancient Persian text refers to to "Hind" in fact your talking about the Indus Region or what is today's Pakistan. Over the centuries through translations the name has evolved and today means entirely something else. River Sindhu led to "Hind" which led to Greek Indos which led to English India which today means entirely another land, Bharat or India Republic.

This happens quite often. For example "Asia" originally was the Greek term for the modern Turkey coast. In time the meaning moved to include further east. Today in America "Asia" conjures up Chinese or Japanese people.

Asia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Indus Basin - Pakistan

However for the purposes of this thread River Indus ( Sindu) has played a vital role to Pakistan. In fact the River Indus is to Pakistan what Nile is to Eygpt. Most of Pakistan is desert. arid or semi arid. The River Indus bringing melting glacier waters from Chinese Tibet provides the water that we use to irrigate our farms which in antiquity we used the "Persian Wheel".

Sakia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most of the climate in Pakistan is continuation of the dry zone from Middle East. However at the dawn of time in the region between Pak/Iran cented on the border area there were various offshoots of early settlements that might be best called Proto Harappan. Sites like Tepe Yahya, Shar Sokhta, Bampur in Iran, Mundigak in Afghanistan, Shortugai in Uzbekistan, Kulli, Shahi Tump, Mehr Garh, Naushara, Balakot, Rehman Dheri in Pakistan were the early phase of agriculture which moved into the Indus River where Harappa and Mohenjo Daro would become some of the erarliest cradles of human civilization collectively called the Indus Valley civilization.

Iran -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tepe_Yahya
Iran- Shahr-e Sukhteh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pak - Kulli culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pak - Mehrgarh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Afghan - Mundigak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Afgan - Shortugai - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pak - Harappa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pak - Mohenjo-daro - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


All these sites where civilization began are within 200 miles of each other. Clearly there was connection between these sites as archealogical evidence has shown.

This shows quite clearly our ancestors traded and learnt to build civilization togather. This did not stop here. As time moved forward the Harappan civilization centred on the River Indus in Pakistan withered and died. Many centuries later Persia arose to become the superpower of it's time. Names like Darius, Cyrus or Xerxes even ring today. As Archaemenid Persia expanded east it moved into what is now Pakistan or the Indus Valley region.

The region that is Pakistan came under Archaemenid Persian rule. If you look at the above list which show the Persian satrapies you will see Maka (Gedrosia), Hindush (India), Tattagus (Sattagydia) and Gandara. All these satrapies would be in today's Pakistan. They are proximate to the provinces of Pakistan today.

Balochistan > Maka/Gedrosia
Sindh > Hindush/India
Punjab > Tattagus/Sattagydia
NWFP > Gandara [NWFP is now renamed Kyhber Paktunkwha]

*Please note in Persian records of the time "Hindush" refers to modern day province of Sindh. However people erronously equate that with modern day India. This is where you have to take care when translating old terms to modern day. Same name does not mean the same thing. If I call myself Cyrus that does not make mesame as the historical Cyrus just because we share the name.

Clearly the region that is Pakistan today continued to be in the Persian realm. Even after invasion by Greeks things did not change. We in Pakistan region found ourselves being under Alexander's rule but and under the same administrative structure as the old Persian Empire. Please refer to the Alexander domain and his route,

During this time Zoroastrianism and Buddhism were dominant in Pakistan. This can be seen in Indo-Parthian Kingdom. Again when the term "Indo" is used people relate that with modern day India which is a mistake. In this case it refers to the River Indus in Pakistan. The map below shows the Indo-Parthian Kingdom centred on Pakistan with some over reach into Afghanistan and Iran.

Indus River - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Indo-Parthian Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gondophares - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Taxila - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sirkap - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Part 2 continued.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I can already see our neighbours on the east are getting convulsions. I am not here to explain anything to them. I am here to try to explain my thoughts to Iranian's because of the importance I attach to that country. In doing so I understand we have had difficult times post 1979 but I am not bothered about now. I am looking at the long distance. I have my eyes set on the horizon.

I want to remind the Iranian's here to please look through your own (Persian) perspective. Do not please look through the Western perspective including the use of the word "India". As I said before if my name is "Cyrus" that does not make "me" Cyrus. Labels are not important. What they mean is important. Since the first "Cyrus" came along there have been many called "Cyrus" but non have been the "Cyrus" that you think in history.

This confusion over just a name is used by some people to create false histories and fabricate all sort of rubbish. If I can't frankly explain to the Persian's who wrote most history in this part of world I might as well give up right now.

The fact is Persia has had direct contact and relationship with what is now Pakistan from the dawn of time. Names change but we are talking about the history of our peoples and land. I ask Persian's to go to your own history books and your records to see the truth.

Achaemenid Persians had satrapies in South Asia. What were they called? Where we they? Lets look into this in detail. I have already posted a map of Achaemenid Persia where it is clear that what is now Pakistan is part of the Persian Empire. Let us look at exactly what Persian Behistun inscription, Nakshi- i-Rustam records say.

"King Darius says: These are the countries which are subject unto me, and by the grace of Ahuramazda I became king of them: Persia, Elam, Babylonia, Assyria, Arabia, Egypt, the countries by the Sea, Lydia, the Greeks, Media, Armenia, Cappadocia, Parthia, Drangiana, Aria, Chorasmia, Bactria, Sogdia, Gandara, Scythia, Sattagydia, Arachosia and Maka; twenty-three lands in all."

The Satrapies of the Achaemenid Persians

Darius' Behistun list includes 23 locations

1. Persia,
2. Elam,
3. Babylonia,
4. Assyria,
5. Arabia,
6. Egypt
7. the countries by the Sea,
8. Lydia,
9. the Greeks,
10. Media,
11. Armenia,
12. Cappadocia,
13. Parthia,
14. Drangiana,
15. Aria,
16. Chorasmia,
17. Bactria,
18. Sogdia,
19. Gandara,
20. Scythia,
21. Sattagydia,
22. Arachosia, and
23. Maka

Some of these Satrapies were divided into smaller regions.Great Satrapy Harauvatiš/Arachosia was split into:-

• 6.1. Central Main Satrapy Harauvatiš/Arachosia. #22
• 6.2. Main Satrapy Zranka/Drangiana. #14
• 6.3. Main Satrapy Maka/Gedrosia.
• 6.4. Main Satrapy Θatagus/Sattagydia. #21
• 6.5. Main Satrapy Hinduš

You need to then figure out where were Maka, Hindush, Sattagydia and Gandara. When you do the research you will find out that all these occupy what is today's Pakistan. This means most of Pakistan's ( about 6% are( Mohajirs ) migrants from India ) ancestors lived in one of those four satrapies. So when you hear Western historians talk of Persia and India they actually mean Persia and Maka, Hindus, Sattagydia and Gandhara and you can see on the map in the previous post where they are.

Gandhara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Maka (satrapy) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sattagydians - Livius
Hindush - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Achaemenid invasion of Indus valley is the Achaemenid military conquests of territories of South Asia of Indus river in 6th century BC, consisting mainly of modern-day Pakistan.[1] Achaemenid penetration into the modern Pakistan occurred in stages, starting from northern parts of Indus river and moving southward.

Achaemenid Provinces during the rule of Darius I showing Hindush, Gedrosia, Sattagydia and Gandara all now in Pakistan today.

Of course if you choose to call "Hindush, Gedrosia, Gandara "Indian" today that your choice but from the map you can tell which land these were, what that land is called today and more importantly which peoples live there today.

Although Arabs invaded Sindh ( Hindush ) in 7th century but they did not go beyond Sindh. Rest of what is Pakistan today remained free from Arab rule. However over the next few centuries the majority population of Indus Valley had converted to Islam. This change was brought about by Persian speaking Sufi saints whose shrines are scattered all over Pakistan and continue to attract huge number of followers.

The subsequent rule of Muslim dynasties involved Persian language, Persian culture, Persian architecture infuse into South Asia and as Pakistan was the first point of contact it recieved the infusion the most. Being Muslim dominant Persian culture was indicator of high society. Persian continued to be the official language until the British removed it.

In 1849 most of what is now Pakistan was conquered by the British and merged into their colony which they named "British India". Two battles that resulted in most of what is Pakistan falling under British control were:

The ancient Achaemenid provinces of Sattagydia/Punjab -http://Battle of Gujrat | Second Sikh War | Britannica.com

The ancient Achaemenid provinc of Hindush/Sindh was captured by the British at the Battle of Miani - Battle of Miani | Sind-British conflict | Britannica.com

After 1900 the Muslim consciousness revolved around religion - Islam and culture which in this case was Persian or Persian hybrid. This can be seen in everything. The Muslims started to revolving around Urdu and the Hindu around Hindi. Both languages have the same core but the differance is the Muslims push toward Persian and Hindu toward Sanskrit. In other words the division. This divergence applied to everything. Urdu uses using Persian derived Nastaʿlīq. Culture, art, clothing. Similar to how the Western world adopts Latin or Greek in particular the high culture in the same way the Muslims adopted Persian and everything connected like food as "high culture". The Hindu did the opposite and pushed toward Sanskrit. This process still continues even today as Hindu fanatics try to erase anything the Muslims might have brought. In this case Muslim invariably equates to Persian as those invaders mostly had Persian culture.

Post 1920s as the Muslim movement for Pakistan took off it very appparent that Pakistan's founding fathers were heavily steeped in Persian traditions. This is not surprising as Persian was seen as the thing for Muslim's to differantiate them from Hindu culture. To be Muslim you added Persian words or culture. To be Hindu you tried to remove Persian words or culture to make it more pure Hindu.

This can be seen in most of the famous figures being conversant in Persian. Many wrote books on Islam or poetry or other subjects in Persian. Allama Iqbal the Mufakkir-e-Pakistan is man who concetualized the idea of Pakistan in 1930 with his famous speach:-

Allama Iqbal
Muhammad Iqbal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"India is a continent of human groups belonging to different races, speaking different languages, and professing different religions [...] Personally, I would like to see the Punjab, North-West Frontier Province, Sindh and Baluchistan amalgamated into a single State. Self-government within the British Empire, or without the British Empire, the formation of a consolidated North-West Indian Muslim State appears to me to be the final destiny of the Muslims, at least of North-West India".

Allahabad Address - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can see in his speach he is in fact asking for the ancient satrapies of Sattagydia(Punjab), Gandara(NWFP), Gedrosia(Balochistan) and Hindush(Sindh) to be made into Pakistan.

Some of his works:-
The Secrets of the Self - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Message from the East - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Persian Psalms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gift from Hijaz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pakistan's national anthem The Qaumi Taranah (Urdu: قومی ترانہ‎, Qaumī Tarānah pronounced [ˈqɔː.mi ˈt̪ə.rɑː.nɑ], lit. "National Anthem"), also known as Pāk Sarzamīn (Urdu: پاک سرزمین‎ is heavily Persianized Urdu.

Pāk sarzamīn shād bād
Kishwar-i ḥasīn shād bād
Tū nishān-i ʿazm-i ʿālī shān
Arẓ-i Pākistān!
Markaz-i yaqīn shād bād



Pāk sarzamīn kā niz̤ām
Quwwat-i Ukhuwwat-i ʿawām
Qaum, mulk, salt̤anat
Pāyindah tābindah bād!
Shād bād manzil-i murād


Parcam-i sitārah o-hilāl
Rahbar-i taraqqī o-kamāl
Tarjumān-i māẓī, shān-i ḥāl
Jān-i istiqbāl!
Sāyah-yi Khudā-yi Ẕū l-jalāl

In his book The Frontiers of Pakistan, Iranian scholar Dr. Mujtaba Razvi noted that, "almost without exception, Pakistan has enjoyed very cordial relations with Iran since its inception on 14 August 1947. Iran was the first country to recognise Pakistan as an independent state, and Shah of Iran was the first Head of State to come on a state visit to Pakistan in March 1950".[1] Since 1947, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, the Founder of Pakistan, had advocated a pro-Iranian policy, and was the main architect of the policy that Pakistan was to pursue with regard to Iran.

However what is amazing is the degree to which Iran supported Pakistan in her wars with India. By the old saying "good friend in need is a friend indeed" Iran came out at the top. This something we in Pakistan should not forget. Some the things Iran dis for Pakistan:-

* In 1965 war "Iran helped Pakistan like as if it was under attack" Paigham-Ilmroze.
* Under CENTO Britain and US refused to help however Iran and Turkey gave 100% support.
* Iranian foreign ministry reacted vehemantly against India crossing the Lahore sector
* Iran gave jet fuel, gasoline, small arms, ammunition and medical supplies despite US disapproval. Iranian nurses were dispatched and helped in treating the war wounded.
* After Indian protests Iran even formally accepted that they were helping Pakistan.
* Iran leased fighter aircraft to Pakistan.

* In 1971 war Iran offered full unconditional support to Pakistan.
* A joint Ir-Pak air exercise was used to transfer Iranian fighers to Pakistan.
* Reports that Iranian and Turkish C-130s were used to ferry troops to East Bengal.
* Iranian airbases were available to PAF if needed.
* Iranian foreign minister openly declared "Iran was 100% with Pakistan".

Please read full text here for details:- Iran's Relation With Pakistan: A Strategic Analysis - Dr. Satyanarayan Pattanayak - Google Books

President Ayub Khan meets the Shah

Iranian stamp with President Ayub and the Shah

Pakistan stamp with Shah and the Queen

And Iranian stamp

Clearly Iran was the most allied of allied countries with Pakistan. The rupture began with 1979 and the revolution. Upto 1979 relations were governed by both countries interests with a secular outlook. However after 1979 religion entered the equation for the first time. When you start looking through the prism of religion the Shia/Sunni divergance begins to impact the relationship.

On top of this Pakistan joined USA and Saudia in the Afghan jihad. This in time would create more differances. In addition within Pakistan Saudi influence post 1980 began to increase and with that the Shia/Sunni issue bgan to impact internal politics. We are still suffering from that today evidenced by the attack on Punjab home minister.

Suicide attack in Pakistan kills Punjab home minister and at least eight others | World news | The Guardian

Today when I look Iran most will agree that Iran poses no threat to Pakistan. Iran would never allow it's land to be used directly or indirectly against Pakistan. I know we hear a lot about the much vaunted India/Iran alliance but the reality is it is lot of talk mostly by Indians. The reality is most of trade by Iran is with China. Indian trade is neglibible.

I think the wildcard is Saudia Arabia. If Saudia Arabia can be convinced to give up it's suicidal love of sectarian politics and hatred for Iran it would be a great thing. However unltimately it is for Pakistan to carve a balanced path between both Saudia knowing that it is the custodian of te holy places and Iran a neighbour we have had and known for the last 5,000 years and will do for the next 5,000 years.

I am certainly convinced that was we move forward over the next two decades our relations with Iran will go back to the way they were before 1979. We have 5,000 years of history as neighbours.

Quick facts: At least 50 million people in Pakistan speak Iranic languages and belong to the ethnic Iranian group. These include Kurdish in Turkey, Ossetian in Russia, Persian in Iran, Dari in Afghanistan,Tajik in Tajikistan, Pashto and Baloch in Pakistan.

Pashto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Balochi language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Serpentine]

@Atanz

Excellent thread bro, thanks. I'm waiting for the rest.

 

[Aramagedon]

Iran must have good relations with all of countries in the world specially Pakistan which is our neighbor.

Long live Iran - Pak relationship.

@Atanz

Excellent thread!


Some of Iranian civilizations since 8000 BCE.

History of Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Signs of 9000-year-old settlement found in Iran's Behbahan

Kashan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shahdad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zayandeh River Culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kashafrud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Susa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Elam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tepe Sialk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chogha Bonut - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zagros Mountains - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chogha Mish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jiroft culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Iran: Cradle of Civilization, from Elamite Kingdom to Great Achaemenid Empire


Gteatest Iranian Empires:

https://defence.pk/threads/–greatest-iranian-empires–.385771/

 

[Force-India]

Good post, great history of Pakistan (real India) . Alexander tried to enter Pakistan but was stopped by army with elephants in huge numbers. In fact the River Indus is to Pakistan what Nile is to Egypt. Iran and Pakistan share history, culture, language, religion and people (race). In ancient times while Pakistan (ancient India) was thriving in arts, music, dance, maths, science, culture, its neighbour India (name unknown) had naked people roaming around in jungles.

Iran must have good relations with every country in the world specially a neighbor country.

Long live Iran - Pak friendship.

Some of Iranian civilizations since 12000 BCE.

Shahdad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zayandeh River Culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kashafrud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Elam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Susa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tepe Sialk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chogha Bonut - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zagros Mountains - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chogha Mish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jiroft culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Interesting information.

 

[ito]

Probably...Iran will balance its relations with India and Pakistan, but I feel India and Iran will move towards a relationship that may be strategic in nature, while I don't see Iran and Pakistan relationship moving in that direction.

 

[New Resolve]

As long as Iran and Pak can respect each others Red Lines, this could be a great strategic relationship in the making, another great addition to the CPEC that would benefit Iran, Pak and China.

 

[yavar]

the history is past and it is not going to come back so it is not as important as now and future .
my prediction Iran Pakistan in now to future is and will be BIG ZERO .

 

[Aramagedon]

the history is past and it is not going to come back so it is not as important as now and future .
my prediction Iran Pakistan in now to future is and will be BIG ZERO .

Why?

 

[yavar]

Why?

my brother i can not make any comment in this forum
i hope you understand

 

[WAJsal]

I won't hide the fact that Iran is my favourite country

I am one of those who view Iran favorably too, mostly because they supported us in the past.

Part 2 being prepared.

This will cover the pre modern and modern. Then a look into the future possibilities.

Good, waiting... this one was well researched, keep up the good work. Seems like you know what you are doing.

The other is Turkey. However Turkey is like a good friend that is about to move away and you know your not going to see much of again but you still bid them farewell and wish the best. The reason is future of Turkey is in Europe. Sooner or later she will be accepted into the European Community and suddenly the Turk/Iranian border will be Europes new frontier.

I tend to disagree with the bold part, what you refer to is, decline in cooperation and etc, etc....In recent times we have clearly seen an unprecedented level of cooperation between the two countries. If there is anything to analyse, it's further increase in cooperation in all fields.

This will cover the pre modern and modern

In my opinion, i think the decline in our friendship and decline in cooperation is out of my understanding. We have also made mistakes. Time to correct some, true but we expect the same cooperation and trust that Iran had for us at one point in time. You need two hands to clap. Majority of Pakistan views Iran favorably and wants to have better relations with Iran(same applies for the government), what more can any country ask for. It would be better if we grow our trust in each other and gradually look to improve ties. I have seen some Iranian members who feel that we are simply slaves of KSA(different interpretations) and will do anything for them, in minority i know but this sort of mentality is a big factor, as to where we are today.
@Daneshmand , sir your thoughts....

 

[haman10]

the history is past and it is not going to come back so it is not as important as now and future .
my prediction Iran Pakistan in now to future is and will be BIG ZERO .

Very bad post .

brother , i like you a lot and u know it .

but your posts regarding pakistan are very childish and quite frankly , sometimes unacceptable .

Pakistani people have always been and will always have their own special place in our hearts . we've got our problems now but i foresee a very bright future for our countries .

i don't think your "prediction" has any value whatsoever . at least all the present clues lead to a very different conclusion .

@Atanz thanks for this great post . looking forward to it's second part , then , we'll discuss it all through

 

[Daneshmand]

Wonderful and beautiful post. Thank you @Atanz

@Daneshmand , sir your thoughts....

I am thinking. Let me some thoughts form and then I will write.

the history is past and it is not going to come back so it is not as important as now and future .
my prediction Iran Pakistan in now to future is and will be BIG ZERO .

You know nothing of history or what it means for future. Only animals have no history and for them past is truly past and future is a "big zero". Because they have no notion of history.

 

[WAJsal]

Very bad post .

brother , i like you a lot and u know it .

but your posts regarding pakistan are very childish and quite frankly , sometimes unacceptable .

Pakistani people have always been and will always have their own special place in our hearts . we've got our problems now but i foresee a very bright future for our countries .

i don't think your "prediction" has any value whatsoever . at least all the present clues lead to a very different conclusion .

@Atanz thanks for this great post . looking forward to it's second part , then , we'll discuss it all through

If both sides cooperate like we used to one's, i don't see why we can't have a bright future.

I am thinking. Let me some thoughts form and then I will write.

Always a pleasure to hear your thoughts, do tag......

 

[Srinivas]

He is talking about the part of Ancient India that is conquered by Persia and Alexander !

Good post, great history of Pakistan (real India) . Alexander tried to enter Pakistan but was stopped by army with elephants in huge numbers. In fact the River Indus is to Pakistan what Nile is to Egypt. Iran and Pakistan share history, culture, language, religion and people (race). In ancient times while Pakistan (ancient India) was thriving in arts, music, dance, maths, science, culture, its neighbour India (name unknown) had naked people roaming around in jungles.



Interesting information.