Iran can now officially buy modern aircraft

[Aryan122]

@kollang @Daneshmand @JEskandari

I can see from your posts that you don't have the slightest clue about the aviation or airline industry. One of the reasons that I almost decided to leave defence.pk was because here every random dude is a defense analyst. You give advice in such a certain fashion as if you hold multiple degrees and have been working in the field for quit some years. So let me roll the paper out for you. I'm an aerospace engineering student currently in my final fourth year. my specialization is the areas of avionics and manufacturing. I also worked internships for Bombardier and Gulfstream. A couple of important point I need make.
- In Wide body airliners there is no such thing as transfer of technology. Let me give a couple of examples, A boeing 767 is manufactured in the united states but the reality is 65 percent of a boeing 767 is manufactued outside of America mainly Germany, Britain, Japan, South Korea, Spain and ... these spare parts are then shipped to seattle and finally assembled. let me give you another example. Check out Dash-8 Q400. It is by all standerds that world's quitest and most modern turboprop passenger airplane. It is manufactured in Toronto, Canada by the Canadian company bombardier but just like most Boeing airliners many of its parts are made out of Canada by companies like Mitsubushi in Japan that is responsible for the fusalge. The wing is built on site. Depending on the need of the customer, the engines are either made in Canada or America. Nonethless they all fall under the united technologies. Landing gears are also built in Oakville Ontario by a multi national company.

-You want to transfer Boeing technology then you have to go to all 450 suppliers of Boeing in 28 countries and beg them to give you their technology and guess what, they won't. Even a desperate crippled company like antonov did not accept to transfer the technology to Iran. Three years ago there was an agreement between Iran and antonov to transfer 60 percent of the IR-140 technology to Iran. Antonov last year rejected the idea. We saw what happened to Iran-140 project, 7 produced 4 crashed. Guys grow up and stop acting so childish, in aviation we don't take chances.

- Iran does not have the industrial capability for manufacturing wide body aircraft. China invested 25 billion dollars in infrastructure before being granted the license to a320 final assembly in Tianjin which was a free trade zone. The reason airbus opened a final assembly was because in the next 10 years there will be a need for at least 800 a320s not just for China but for the neighboring countries as well. China since 1985 forged a strategic partnership with airbus today China operates 1100 airbus aircrafts. Cheap labor, Cheap costs, and remember no transfer of technology just the final assembly line. Thats the best China could get.

- Now military is different there is more flexibility in military technology transfer

- Airbus Boeing Bombardier Embrear. These companies produce the best passenger airplanes. Now these companies did not reach this status over night there is a century of hard work and research behind every airplane that comes out of these companies assembly lines. You can't just seat on your A** and ask them to give you the bread of their century old hard work and dedication to science and technology.

- Don't waste your time on Russian Airplanes even aeroflot doesnt't use russian made aircrafts. Iran's aviation industry is wester-based. From training to maintannce and engineering from piloting to operations. It is better for Iran to keep its eye on Airbus and Boeing for wide body and on ERJ and Bombardier for regional.

To Iranian members here : دست از این کمونیست بازی بردارید ساخت هواپیما شوخی و مسخره بازی نیست که با خودکفایی و بازگشت به درون و اکتفا به نیرو و سرمایه های داخلی سروهمش اورد . ایالات متحده امریکا با 110 سال سابقه ساخت هواپیما و با زیرساخت های عظیم هوافضا اکثر هواپیما ها رو با کار تیمی و با اشتراک چند کشور و صد ها کمپانی خارجی می سازه . ساخت هواپیما یک کار تیمی بین چند قاره و گاهی اوقات چند هزار کمپانی بین المللی دلیل بالا بودن کیفیت هواپیما های غربی هم همینه . دلیل اینکه سوپرجت و توپولف 204 کمی متفاوت با بقیه هستند استفاده بسیار زیاد این هواپیما ها از سیستم ها ابزار های فرانسوی و انگلیسی هست .

 

[BordoEnes]

@kollang @Daneshmand @JEskandari

I can see from your posts that you don't have the slightest clue about the aviation or airline industry. One of the reasons that I almost decided to leave defence.pk was because here every random dude is a defense analyst. You give advice in such a certain fashion as if you hold multiple degrees and have been working in the field for quit some years. So let me roll the paper out for you. I'm an aerospace engineering student currently in my final fourth year. my specialization is the areas of avionics and manufacturing. I also worked internships for Bombardier and Gulfstream. A couple of important point I need make.
- In Wide body airliners there is no such thing as transfer of technology. Let me give a couple of examples, A boeing 767 is manufactured in the united states but the reality is 65 percent of a boeing 767 is manufactued outside of America mainly Germany, Britain, Japan, South Korea, Spain and ... these spare parts are then shipped to seattle and finally assembled. let me give you another example. Check out Dash-8 Q400. It is by all standerds that world's quitest and most modern turboprop passenger airplane. It is manufactured in Toronto, Canada by the Canadian company bombardier but just like most Boeing airliners many of its parts are made out of Canada by companies like Mitsubushi in Japan that is responsible for the fusalge. The wing is built on site. Depending on the need of the customer, the engines are either made in Canada or America. Nonethless they all fall under the united technologies. Landing gears are also built in Oakville Ontario by a multi national company.

-You want to transfer Boeing technology then you have to go to all 450 suppliers of Boeing in 28 countries and beg them to give you their technology and guess what, they won't. Even a desperate crippled company like antonov did not accept to transfer the technology to Iran. Three years ago there was an agreement between Iran and antonov to transfer 60 percent of the IR-140 technology to Iran. Antonov last year rejected the idea. We saw what happened to Iran-140 project, 7 produced 4 crashed. Guys grow up and stop acting so childish, in aviation we don't take chances.

- Iran does not have the industrial capability for manufacturing wide body aircraft. China invested 25 billion dollars in infrastructure before being granted the license to a320 final assembly in Tianjin which was a free trade zone. The reason airbus opened a final assembly was because in the next 10 years there will be a need for at least 800 a320s not just for China but for the neighboring countries as well. China since 1985 forged a strategic partnership with airbus today China operates 1100 airbus aircrafts. Cheap labor, Cheap costs, and remember no transfer of technology just the final assembly line. Thats the best China could get.

- Now military is different there is more flexibility in military technology transfer

- Airbus Boeing Bombardier Embrear. These companies produce the best passenger airplanes. Now these companies did not reach this status over night there is a century of hard work and research behind every airplane that comes out of these companies assembly lines. You can't just seat on your A** and ask them to give you the bread of their century old hard work and dedication to science and technology.

- Don't waste your time on Russian Airplanes even aeroflot doesnt't use russian made aircrafts. Iran's aviation industry is wester-based. From training to maintannce and engineering from piloting to operations. It is better for Iran to keep its eye on Airbus and Boeing for wide body and on ERJ and Bombardier for regional.

To Iranian members here : دست از این کمونیست بازی بردارید ساخت هواپیما شوخی و مسخره بازی نیست که با خودکفایی و بازگشت به درون و اکتفا به نیرو و سرمایه های داخلی سروهمش اورد . ایالات متحده امریکا با 110 سال سابقه ساخت هواپیما و با زیرساخت های عظیم هوافضا اکثر هواپیما ها رو با کار تیمی و با اشتراک چند کشور و صد ها کمپانی خارجی می سازه . ساخت هواپیما یک کار تیمی بین چند قاره و گاهی اوقات چند هزار کمپانی بین المللی دلیل بالا بودن کیفیت هواپیما های غربی هم همینه . دلیل اینکه سوپرجت و توپولف 204 کمی متفاوت با بقیه هستند استفاده بسیار زیاد این هواپیما ها از سیستم ها ابزار های فرانسوی و انگلیسی هست .

Awesome. Im gonne start my Aviation study next month myself, plan to major as a Pilot. Got any tips?

 

[PathanBangladeshi]

Congrats to our Persian brothers, we bangladeshis share the same blood as Iranians so we are connected.

 

[danger007]

Congrats to our Persian brothers, we bangladeshis share the same blood as Iranians so we are connected.

, I don't know about this... is there any separate blood exist for you guys...

 

[PathanBangladeshi]

, I don't know about this... is there any separate blood exist for you guys...

Jealous Indian, we Bangladeshis are descended from Arabs, Turks, Pathans and Persians. @iajdani is a Persian Bangladeshi and he is clearly Iranian looking

 

[Hack-Hook]

@kollang @Daneshmand @JEskandari

I can see from your posts that you don't have the slightest clue about the aviation or airline industry. One of the reasons that I almost decided to leave defence.pk was because here every random dude is a defense analyst. You give advice in such a certain fashion as if you hold multiple degrees and have been working in the field for quit some years. So let me roll the paper out for you. I'm an aerospace engineering student currently in my final fourth year. my specialization is the areas of avionics and manufacturing. I also worked internships for Bombardier and Gulfstream. A couple of important point I need make.
- In Wide body airliners there is no such thing as transfer of technology. Let me give a couple of examples, A boeing 767 is manufactured in the united states but the reality is 65 percent of a boeing 767 is manufactued outside of America mainly Germany, Britain, Japan, South Korea, Spain and ... these spare parts are then shipped to seattle and finally assembled. let me give you another example. Check out Dash-8 Q400. It is by all standerds that world's quitest and most modern turboprop passenger airplane. It is manufactured in Toronto, Canada by the Canadian company bombardier but just like most Boeing airliners many of its parts are made out of Canada by companies like Mitsubushi in Japan that is responsible for the fusalge. The wing is built on site. Depending on the need of the customer, the engines are either made in Canada or America. Nonethless they all fall under the united technologies. Landing gears are also built in Oakville Ontario by a multi national company.

-You want to transfer Boeing technology then you have to go to all 450 suppliers of Boeing in 28 countries and beg them to give you their technology and guess what, they won't. Even a desperate crippled company like antonov did not accept to transfer the technology to Iran. Three years ago there was an agreement between Iran and antonov to transfer 60 percent of the IR-140 technology to Iran. Antonov last year rejected the idea. We saw what happened to Iran-140 project, 7 produced 4 crashed. Guys grow up and stop acting so childish, in aviation we don't take chances.

- Iran does not have the industrial capability for manufacturing wide body aircraft. China invested 25 billion dollars in infrastructure before being granted the license to a320 final assembly in Tianjin which was a free trade zone. The reason airbus opened a final assembly was because in the next 10 years there will be a need for at least 800 a320s not just for China but for the neighboring countries as well. China since 1985 forged a strategic partnership with airbus today China operates 1100 airbus aircrafts. Cheap labor, Cheap costs, and remember no transfer of technology just the final assembly line. Thats the best China could get.

- Now military is different there is more flexibility in military technology transfer

- Airbus Boeing Bombardier Embrear. These companies produce the best passenger airplanes. Now these companies did not reach this status over night there is a century of hard work and research behind every airplane that comes out of these companies assembly lines. You can't just seat on your A** and ask them to give you the bread of their century old hard work and dedication to science and technology.

- Don't waste your time on Russian Airplanes even aeroflot doesnt't use russian made aircrafts. Iran's aviation industry is wester-based. From training to maintannce and engineering from piloting to operations. It is better for Iran to keep its eye on Airbus and Boeing for wide body and on ERJ and Bombardier for regional.

To Iranian members here : دست از این کمونیست بازی بردارید ساخت هواپیما شوخی و مسخره بازی نیست که با خودکفایی و بازگشت به درون و اکتفا به نیرو و سرمایه های داخلی سروهمش اورد . ایالات متحده امریکا با 110 سال سابقه ساخت هواپیما و با زیرساخت های عظیم هوافضا اکثر هواپیما ها رو با کار تیمی و با اشتراک چند کشور و صد ها کمپانی خارجی می سازه . ساخت هواپیما یک کار تیمی بین چند قاره و گاهی اوقات چند هزار کمپانی بین المللی دلیل بالا بودن کیفیت هواپیما های غربی هم همینه . دلیل اینکه سوپرجت و توپولف 204 کمی متفاوت با بقیه هستند استفاده بسیار زیاد این هواپیما ها از سیستم ها ابزار های فرانسوی و انگلیسی هست .

Didn't knew ty-204 is a wide body airplane .
We are talking about assembelly line and you talk about the components are made in other countries.
And funny you say iran fleet is western so iran must by western planes but is equipment which is used or the crew who are trained to maintain airbus a320 can be used to maintain boeing 767 ? .

And the must intresting part is that one person who is intern in some western companies says we most buy from his company.

By the way unlike you we believe if an airplanes can get all the certificates then it worth consideration.

 

[Aryan122]

QUOTE="BordoEnes, post: 7391086, member: 38977"]Awesome. Im gonne start my Aviation study next month myself, plan to major as a Pilot. Got any tips?[ QUOTE]

Please be kind and answer some of these questions. Are you a cadet? Meaning are you being sponsored by an airline? are you pursuing a college or university degree with that ? How much are you paying? In which country is your training going to take place?

Didn't knew ty-204 is a wide body airplane .
We are talking about assembelly line and you talk about the components are made in other countries.
And funny you say iran fleet is western so iran must by western planes but is equipment which is used or the crew who are trained to maintain airbus a320 can be used to maintain boeing 767 ? .

And the must intresting part is that one person who is intern in some western companies says we most buy from his company.

By the way unlike you we believe if an airplanes can get all the certificates then it worth consideration.

Tu-204 is a narrow body. I apologize for any misunderstanding.
There must be a purpose for the assembly line otherwise it will not be cost efficient. For instance Airbus has predicted that in the next 15 years Asian countries will purchase thousands of A320 type and the new version A320neo. So for cost efficiency they have opened a final assembly line in China in order to serve the needs of Asia's growing transportation system. Airbus assembly lines in France manufacture 700 hundred planes per year. It is very unlikely that Iran would place orders for hundreds of a320s. You ask me, I'd say Iran would need 100 to 200 A320s. And this does not justify assembly lines. You have to invest at least 15 billion Dollars into making the infrastructure, an assembly line like the one in Toulouse. Now, at an average 50 aircraft per month the factory will be closed down after 4 months. With 15 Billion you can order an additional 130 a320s. Now I'm making all these assumption under the impression that Airbus would agree to opening up an assembly line in Iran. Which is very unlikely. Iran doesn't have the problem of assembly. With supervision technicians with three months of workshop and training can assemble an aircraft.

Your second question. You won't believe the performance that airbus pilots show when they change planes. A320,330,340,380 all follow the same cockpit layout and philosophy. An a320 pilot can easily switch to a380. When an a320 pilot is type rated on a380 his performance is overwhelmingly better that a Boeing pilot because Airbus has followed the same methodology in design and development of all of its airplanes, pilots and technicians feel very comfortable to handle all airbus types. Currently Iran air has 6 a320s. Now lets assume that Iran orders the same number of a380. It would take these Iranian Pilots only 14 days to be fully type rated on a380. However by the same token Iranian pilots who fly Boeing types would need at least 2 to 3 months of type rating. In the same way Boeing pilots would feel very comfortable in Boeing 747-400/800, 777, 787. But in 737 for instance Boeing has implemented a completely different design both in cockpit layout and system configuration. It would not be easy for a Boeing 777 pilot to switch over to 737. The type rating would be more pain staking and lengthier.

For cost efficiency airlines tend to go for only one manufacturer or two. The more manufacturers you work with the more money you have to spend. This is why most low cost airlines operate only one type of aircraft from one manufacturer.

I have no link to Bombardier or Gulfstream, heck gulfstream is a company on private business jets mostly. I only did my summer internships there.

That's wrong. IR-140 was also a certified aircraft, turned out to be not suitable for Iran. Boeing MD-80 family too. It is one of the world's most popular airplanes. But Iranian aviation experts have said for a number of years now that the aircraft is not compatible with Iran's weather condition. Thank god nothing has happened yet.

We can have an engaging debate about Russian products vs Western products only if you are interested in an honest discussion.

 

[BordoEnes]

Please be kind and answer some of these questions. Are you a cadet? Meaning are you being sponsored by an airline? are you pursuing a college or university degree with that ? How much are you paying? In which country is your training going to take place?

Let me answer those questions in their respective order. Nope not a cadet, as i said i have yet to start to study. I am not sponsored by anyone(You can do that? Holy shitt any idea how this will be accomplished?). Not familair with international degree's but i think it was bachelor. Dont have the slightest clue of much im gonna pay but im ready for anything for this study. Naturally speaking it will be in The netherlands, Amsterdam, Hogeschool van Amsterdam: Aviation.

You can essentialy go anyway you want with the study after the first year(So engineer, pilot, concept designer etc you know it).

 

[Azeri440]

If i'm not mistaken even if Iran set a deal with airbus it will take time to manufacture the plane right ? or they have second handed - or in storage ?

companies like Airbus and Boeing have a thousand orders + for its aircraft , so yes it will take a couple years for first Iranian orders to arrive , 2nd hand planes are usually bought from other airlines directly

 

[Hack-Hook]

Iran seems to talk with Russia for Sukhoi Super jet
Russia Negotiating Supply of ‘Sukhoi Superjet’ to Iran / Sputnik International

 

[IR-TR]

I would choose A-340 but the price...US$238.0 million.

Mahan bought 8 of them for less than 300 million. They're out of production and use quite a bit more fuel than the 777. Fleets are phasing them out, and they can be had dirt cheap even lightly used. So I think we'll see a lot of those in Iran soon. Nice stop gap plane with long legs.

companies like Airbus and Boeing have a thousand orders + for its aircraft , so yes it will take a couple years for first Iranian orders to arrive , 2nd hand planes are usually bought from other airlines directly

True, but not all types. Like the 777 and a330, which have more than enough slots available. The 787 and a350 are indeed chock full until somewhere in 2018/2019.

Let me answer those questions in their respective order. Nope not a cadet, as i said i have yet to start to study. I am not sponsored by anyone(You can do that? Holy shitt any idea how this will be accomplished?). Not familair with international degree's but i think it was bachelor. Dont have the slightest clue of much im gonna pay but im ready for anything for this study. Naturally speaking it will be in The netherlands, Amsterdam, Hogeschool van Amsterdam: Aviation.

You can essentialy go anyway you want with the study after the first year(So engineer, pilot, concept designer etc you know it).

Good for you buddy. Always like to see 'allochtonen' get educated. Succes!

@kollang @Daneshmand @JEskandari

I can see from your posts that you don't have the slightest clue about the aviation or airline industry. One of the reasons that I almost decided to leave defence.pk was because here every random dude is a defense analyst. You give advice in such a certain fashion as if you hold multiple degrees and have been working in the field for quit some years. So let me roll the paper out for you. I'm an aerospace engineering student currently in my final fourth year. my specialization is the areas of avionics and manufacturing. I also worked internships for Bombardier and Gulfstream. A couple of important point I need make.
- In Wide body airliners there is no such thing as transfer of technology. Let me give a couple of examples, A boeing 767 is manufactured in the united states but the reality is 65 percent of a boeing 767 is manufactued outside of America mainly Germany, Britain, Japan, South Korea, Spain and ... these spare parts are then shipped to seattle and finally assembled. let me give you another example. Check out Dash-8 Q400. It is by all standerds that world's quitest and most modern turboprop passenger airplane. It is manufactured in Toronto, Canada by the Canadian company bombardier but just like most Boeing airliners many of its parts are made out of Canada by companies like Mitsubushi in Japan that is responsible for the fusalge. The wing is built on site. Depending on the need of the customer, the engines are either made in Canada or America. Nonethless they all fall under the united technologies. Landing gears are also built in Oakville Ontario by a multi national company.

-You want to transfer Boeing technology then you have to go to all 450 suppliers of Boeing in 28 countries and beg them to give you their technology and guess what, they won't. Even a desperate crippled company like antonov did not accept to transfer the technology to Iran. Three years ago there was an agreement between Iran and antonov to transfer 60 percent of the IR-140 technology to Iran. Antonov last year rejected the idea. We saw what happened to Iran-140 project, 7 produced 4 crashed. Guys grow up and stop acting so childish, in aviation we don't take chances.

- Iran does not have the industrial capability for manufacturing wide body aircraft. China invested 25 billion dollars in infrastructure before being granted the license to a320 final assembly in Tianjin which was a free trade zone. The reason airbus opened a final assembly was because in the next 10 years there will be a need for at least 800 a320s not just for China but for the neighboring countries as well. China since 1985 forged a strategic partnership with airbus today China operates 1100 airbus aircrafts. Cheap labor, Cheap costs, and remember no transfer of technology just the final assembly line. Thats the best China could get.

- Now military is different there is more flexibility in military technology transfer

- Airbus Boeing Bombardier Embrear. These companies produce the best passenger airplanes. Now these companies did not reach this status over night there is a century of hard work and research behind every airplane that comes out of these companies assembly lines. You can't just seat on your A** and ask them to give you the bread of their century old hard work and dedication to science and technology.

- Don't waste your time on Russian Airplanes even aeroflot doesnt't use russian made aircrafts. Iran's aviation industry is wester-based. From training to maintannce and engineering from piloting to operations. It is better for Iran to keep its eye on Airbus and Boeing for wide body and on ERJ and Bombardier for regional.

To Iranian members here : دست از این کمونیست بازی بردارید ساخت هواپیما شوخی و مسخره بازی نیست که با خودکفایی و بازگشت به درون و اکتفا به نیرو و سرمایه های داخلی سروهمش اورد . ایالات متحده امریکا با 110 سال سابقه ساخت هواپیما و با زیرساخت های عظیم هوافضا اکثر هواپیما ها رو با کار تیمی و با اشتراک چند کشور و صد ها کمپانی خارجی می سازه . ساخت هواپیما یک کار تیمی بین چند قاره و گاهی اوقات چند هزار کمپانی بین المللی دلیل بالا بودن کیفیت هواپیما های غربی هم همینه . دلیل اینکه سوپرجت و توپولف 204 کمی متفاوت با بقیه هستند استفاده بسیار زیاد این هواپیما ها از سیستم ها ابزار های فرانسوی و انگلیسی هست .

The only way a country can get 'tech transfer' in the passanger jet industry is by teaming up and designing new aircraft together from scratch. That means you need to have a domestic industry ready (high quality one at that). The best Iran can do, is like Turkey, to start building parts, large and small, for Boeing/Airbus. As a supplier. Later on you develop design capabilities, and when the time is ripe, you team up with a foreign giant and make a small jet or propellor plane together. Designing and building large passenger jets is a very exclusive team, in which only the US, EU and soon China (and Russia a little bit) will operate. Nobody else will every join the club, except perhaps India in the coming decades.

 

[Optimos Prime IA]

Jealous Indian, we Bangladeshis are descended from Arabs, Turks, Pathans and Persians. @iajdani is a Persian Bangladeshi and he is clearly Iranian looking

Very true

 

[Daneshmand]

@kollang @Daneshmand @JEskandari

I can see from your posts that you don't have the slightest clue about the aviation or airline industry. One of the reasons that I almost decided to leave defence.pk was because here every random dude is a defense analyst. You give advice in such a certain fashion as if you hold multiple degrees and have been working in the field for quit some years. So let me roll the paper out for you. I'm an aerospace engineering student currently in my final fourth year. my specialization is the areas of avionics and manufacturing. I also worked internships for Bombardier and Gulfstream. A couple of important point I need make.
- In Wide body airliners there is no such thing as transfer of technology. Let me give a couple of examples, A boeing 767 is manufactured in the united states but the reality is 65 percent of a boeing 767 is manufactued outside of America mainly Germany, Britain, Japan, South Korea, Spain and ... these spare parts are then shipped to seattle and finally assembled. let me give you another example. Check out Dash-8 Q400. It is by all standerds that world's quitest and most modern turboprop passenger airplane. It is manufactured in Toronto, Canada by the Canadian company bombardier but just like most Boeing airliners many of its parts are made out of Canada by companies like Mitsubushi in Japan that is responsible for the fusalge. The wing is built on site. Depending on the need of the customer, the engines are either made in Canada or America. Nonethless they all fall under the united technologies. Landing gears are also built in Oakville Ontario by a multi national company.

-You want to transfer Boeing technology then you have to go to all 450 suppliers of Boeing in 28 countries and beg them to give you their technology and guess what, they won't. Even a desperate crippled company like antonov did not accept to transfer the technology to Iran. Three years ago there was an agreement between Iran and antonov to transfer 60 percent of the IR-140 technology to Iran. Antonov last year rejected the idea. We saw what happened to Iran-140 project, 7 produced 4 crashed. Guys grow up and stop acting so childish, in aviation we don't take chances.

- Iran does not have the industrial capability for manufacturing wide body aircraft. China invested 25 billion dollars in infrastructure before being granted the license to a320 final assembly in Tianjin which was a free trade zone. The reason airbus opened a final assembly was because in the next 10 years there will be a need for at least 800 a320s not just for China but for the neighboring countries as well. China since 1985 forged a strategic partnership with airbus today China operates 1100 airbus aircrafts. Cheap labor, Cheap costs, and remember no transfer of technology just the final assembly line. Thats the best China could get.

- Now military is different there is more flexibility in military technology transfer

- Airbus Boeing Bombardier Embrear. These companies produce the best passenger airplanes. Now these companies did not reach this status over night there is a century of hard work and research behind every airplane that comes out of these companies assembly lines. You can't just seat on your A** and ask them to give you the bread of their century old hard work and dedication to science and technology.

- Don't waste your time on Russian Airplanes even aeroflot doesnt't use russian made aircrafts. Iran's aviation industry is wester-based. From training to maintannce and engineering from piloting to operations. It is better for Iran to keep its eye on Airbus and Boeing for wide body and on ERJ and Bombardier for regional.

To Iranian members here : دست از این کمونیست بازی بردارید ساخت هواپیما شوخی و مسخره بازی نیست که با خودکفایی و بازگشت به درون و اکتفا به نیرو و سرمایه های داخلی سروهمش اورد . ایالات متحده امریکا با 110 سال سابقه ساخت هواپیما و با زیرساخت های عظیم هوافضا اکثر هواپیما ها رو با کار تیمی و با اشتراک چند کشور و صد ها کمپانی خارجی می سازه . ساخت هواپیما یک کار تیمی بین چند قاره و گاهی اوقات چند هزار کمپانی بین المللی دلیل بالا بودن کیفیت هواپیما های غربی هم همینه . دلیل اینکه سوپرجت و توپولف 204 کمی متفاوت با بقیه هستند استفاده بسیار زیاد این هواپیما ها از سیستم ها ابزار های فرانسوی و انگلیسی هست .

Thank you for your informative reply. I am really happy for you about having chosen such an excellent field and having the opportunity to work with the Western giants of this industry.

Before going on to reply to your objections, let me be clear that I agree with the gist of your comment specially on science and technology. But this agreement does not mean you are right. Let me explain to you why.

The argument you are making basically cuts into the foundation of what kind of future, Iran should aim for. Should Iran aim to be an agrarian, natural-resource exporting and goods importing country or a relatively industrialized society? I really appreciate your expert opinion and your knowledge of nitpicky of aviation. But I being expert in another field know about nitpickies of my field as would others know about theirs.

First of all, the Russian industrial ecosystem is different from that of modern Western industrial ecosystem. Russia due to having been behind iron curtain during the cold war, had to build everything internally by its government (not private parties). Whether it was planes or ships or TV's etc. So it is possible to negotiate transfer of technology deals, since you are dealing with one country and its ministries of industry and aviation (or their equivalent).

Look at Iran's car industry, which is Iran's biggest industry after oil and produces crappy cars. On the surface of it, this industry should not even exist. It produces unsafe, polluting, low quality, obsolete and overpriced cars. About a million units a year and if the economic conditions improve even by a little, resulting in increased demand, it already has enough spare established structural capacity to double the production. The only and singular reason for its existence is larger economic benefit for the nation at the cost of economic loss for individuals buying the cars. How so? Well, because it employs almost over a million people often among the most skilled and educated classes of Iranians who should otherwise be plowing fields. In the absence of this industry, Iran was to import all its auto requirement from abroad, which would mean loss of a million technical jobs as well as a huge flight of capital from Iran.

Assuming on average importing a car and its maintenance and spare parts over its lifetime costs about 30,000 dollars, this would mean the flight of 30 to 60 billion dollars worth of wealth each year depending on local demand. This would shrink Iran's GDP of about 450 billion dollars by 7 to 11 percent. And how Iran's car industry came about? Well Shah during his white revolution thought it would be better for Iran to have its own car industry and built structures for it to happen. Mind you but at that time in late 50's and early 60's, Iran was quite a backward and an agrarian society with no scientific or technological capability. When in 1961 Iran started to build a plant to assemble Jeep at a low production level, it was almost as complicated and a heavy undertaking for Iran as if Iran today starts assembling planes. Still today Iran is dependent on foreign supplier and foreign help to keep this industry breathing. Was Shah's decision wise? I do not know. That is for you an engineer, to answer.

Look at Iran's medical equipment and pharmaceutical industry. It was founded during Qajar and Pahlavi era when Iran kick-started some projects to produce some basic medicines and equipment. Still today, Iran is dependent on foreign countries for most of its medical needs from lab equipment to heart lung machines and from CT-scanners to dialysis machines as well as many medicines and chemicals. But this industry in Iran employs a couple of hundred thousand people producing some low quality equipment and a large portion of Iran's requirement of medicines. If Iran was to import all of that instead of having this industry which still can not function without foreign inputs of various varieties, Iran's GDP would shrink by a few percentage. Again another segment of highly skilled workforce of Iran will have to be plowing fields instead of working as inefficient producers of medical products. Is it wise to have this industry? Why should Iran manufacture low quality acetaminophen and amoxicillin if higher quality ones can be imported? Is it wise to have a bio-medical industry in Iran?

Look at Iran's oil industry. This is one of the oldest industries of Iran, over 110 years old and is the main money making machine without whose existence, Iran's quality of life would not be any different than Afghanistan. Still it can not function without foreign help. It need not only technical assistance from foreign countries but even investment from foreign countries, since Iran spends all the money this industry makes and is forced to look up to foreigners to finance new projects. After 110 years, still Iran does not have a single oil company comparable to Shell, Exxon or Nippon. To this day, Iran needs to import spares for its oil refinery, oil rigs and oil wells from foreign countries and often can not finish a single large project without foreign help. But this industry is the life-line of Iran employing about 5% of Iran's work force and clock 90% of Iran's exports. Should we bring back Anglo-Persian oil company, sign a long term 100 year contract and give the ownership of all Iran's hydrocarbon reserves to it in return for a fixed percentage of sales?

This is the story of every single industry in Iran. What you say about Aerospace industry is no more different than any other industry. If this is the case, then we should stop kidding ourselves. For instance why Iran is producing quarter of a million engineers every year when they can not run not even a single industry efficiently? Why Iran is producing half a million gradates in sciences when they will have to go on and sit on their arsses expecting high quality jobs that do not exist since the country does not have the capacity to have aerospace, automobile, rail, marine, medical, petrochemical and etc etc industries? Why so much of the nation's resources are to be spent on such universities, when there is to be no industry?

My friend, the objection that you have raised, is honest only when you are a young person studying in West to be an aerospace engineer and aspiring to work for a Western giant in the field. When applied to a young Iranian who has dreams much like you, this objection of yours, becomes dishonest. Because either we have to tell this young Iranian to go and plow the fields and don't bother to study becoming an aerospace engineer or a petrochemical engineer or etc etc and instead focus on learning farsh-baafi and namad-saazi or we have to provide subsidized and inefficient industrial structures producing substandard products to employ these young aspiring Iranians. Both choices are stark and unpleasant. But then this is what it is for these kind of nations. That is to say, we either have the choice to live a miserable, inefficient un-industrial life or alternatively a less miserable, but equally inefficient industrialized life. Shah thought the industrial way is better. IRI thought the same. I think the same. I am not sure if you have made your mind.

And before you come to claim that aerospace industry is different being a safety conscious and ethical industry, let's not get into that. Every industry is safety critical. I do not need to even remind you about Iran's car industry and its contribution to Iran's mortality rate.

About ethics, I have this ethical exercise for you to ponder on. Various estimates put Iran's requirement for new planes at 150 to 500 over the next few decades. Say we take the average plausible number of 300 new planes. If we assume the average purchase and spare parts cost of each plane from Airbus to be 400 million dollars over the next 30 years, this would come to 4 billion dollars per year. Now lets say if we assemble those cheaper Russian planes from some locally manufactured components and some foreign manufactured components and save 2 billion dollars per year, the benefit would be providing jobs to young people who otherwise would have to be employed as farsh-baaf.

The cost would be increased crash rates. Say 2000 people would die in air crashes of Iran every year, a higher rate than the entire average global aviation death rate. 2 billion dollars for 2000 lives. But 2 billion dollars invested in Iran's health care and social services, would save the lives of 20,000 people. Iran has very high DALY rates in some very preventable conditions which only require abit of investment to remedy, eg. drowning, hypertension, inter-personal violence and fire. What is the ethical thing to do here in your view? Should we save the lives of 2000 people or the lives of 20,000 people? And why? Also in your view, was it ethical for Western world to continue investing in their aviation industry when their crash rate was high? For example when Dakota's were being manufactured.

Additionally, as an engineer, how do you think these Iranian people should be employed? After all the world needs only so much farsh and namad. Should they all emigrate to West? Or should we downshift Iran's lifestyle to the level of sub-saharan life? Should we close down these universities which produce a million science and technology related graduates with expectation to be employed in high-tech industries that do not exist or alternatively should not exist in Iran?

These are the questions for you.

 

[Aryan122]

QUOTE="BordoEnes, post: 7391849, member: 38977"]Let me answer those questions in their respective order. Nope not a cadet, as i said i have yet to start to study. I am not sponsored by anyone(You can do that? Holy shitt any idea how this will be accomplished?). Not familair with international degree's but i think it was bachelor. Dont have the slightest clue of much im gonna pay but im ready for anything for this study.it will be in The netherlands, Amsterdam, Hogeschool van Amsterdam: Aviation.

You can essentialy go anyway you want with the study after the first year(So engineer, pilot, concept designer etc you know it).[ QUOTE]

I see you are from Turkey. Turkish Airlines has a cadet program for Turkish citizens. It is sponsored by the airline. They will pay your entire tuition. You'll have to go through a number of examinations if you pass then you will be sent to Florida and upon graduation you will be hired as a second officer. After 4 years you will be upgraded to first officer. Austrian has also a cadet program. Airline Cadet program for EU citizens is quit famous. In Middle East UAE has the best pilot cadet program but the thing is that it is only for UAE nationals.
You ask me the best way to become a pilot is either through the military or Airline sponsored cadet programs. They pay your tuition and you'll have a guaranteed job after graduation. Pilot training is expensive. Minimum 60K to 80K. Job opportunities are limited to your flying hours. You'll have to log at least 2500 hours before being hired by a good regional airline. That takes about 4 to 6 years. During that 4 to 6 years you basically have live with poverty wages either work as a flight instructor or have impressive connections. either way that initial 4 to 6 years is the most challenging and requires a lot of dedication. But as soon as you land a good job on a jet glass cockpit and log 3000 hours you are good to go for the rest of your life. so if you are 18 or 19 it will take you 1 to 3 years to finish up your training. But I guarantee until the age of 30 you re gonna have a hard time.
A friend of mine in the aerospace engineering program took pilot training in summer months. He graduated with a degree in engineering and PPL and CPL as well. So he was an engineer and a pilot. He was hired by bombardier as flight test engineer. Initially he was just an engineer inside the airplane during system checks but very soon he found himself in cockpit. That PPL and CPL helped him alot. He became test pilot engineer. He has logged thousands of flight hours. Gets paid 80K a year. Of course in Canada. I would suggest you do the same. Engineering would be a much better option. Unless you are an aviation enthusiast that is insane about aviation and is willing to do all it takes.

Thank you for your informative reply. I am really happy for you about having chosen such an excellent field and having the opportunity to work with the Western giants of this industry.

Before going on to reply to your objections, let me be clear that I agree with the gist of your comment specially on science and technology. But this agreement does not mean you are right. Let me explain to you why.

The argument you are making basically cuts into the foundation of what kind of future, Iran should aim for. Should Iran aim to be an agrarian, natural-resource exporting and goods importing country or a relatively industrialized society? I really appreciate your expert opinion and your knowledge of nitpicky of aviation. But I being expert in another field know about nitpickies of my field as would others know about theirs.

First of all, the Russian industrial ecosystem is different from that of modern Western industrial ecosystem. Russia due to having been behind iron curtain during the cold war, had to build everything internally by its government (not private parties). Whether it was planes or ships or TV's etc. So it is possible to negotiate transfer of technology deals, since you are dealing with one country and its ministries of industry and aviation (or their equivalent).

Look at Iran's car industry, which is Iran's biggest industry after oil and produces crappy cars. On the surface of it, this industry should not even exist. It produces unsafe, polluting, low quality, obsolete and overpriced cars. About a million units a year and if the economic conditions improve even by a little, resulting in increased demand, it already has enough spare established structural capacity to double the production. The only and singular reason for its existence is larger economic benefit for the nation at the cost of economic loss for individuals buying the cars. How so? Well, because it employs almost over a million people often among the most skilled and educated classes of Iranians who should otherwise be plowing fields. In the absence of this industry, Iran was to import all its auto requirement from abroad, which would mean loss of a million technical jobs as well as a huge flight of capital from Iran.

Assuming on average importing a car and its maintenance and spare parts over its lifetime costs about 30,000 dollars, this would mean the flight of 30 to 60 billion dollars worth of wealth each year depending on local demand. This would shrink Iran's GDP of about 450 billion dollars by 7 to 11 percent. And how Iran's car industry came about? Well Shah during his white revolution thought it would be better for Iran to have its own car industry and built structures for it to happen. Mind you but at that time in late 50's and early 60's, Iran was quite a backward and an agrarian society with no scientific or technological capability. When in 1961 Iran started to build a plant to assemble Jeep at a low production level, it was almost as complicated and a heavy undertaking for Iran as if Iran today starts assembling planes. Still today Iran is dependent on foreign supplier and foreign help to keep this industry breathing. Was Shah's decision wise? I do not know. That is for you an engineer, to answer.

Look at Iran's medical equipment and pharmaceutical industry. It was founded during Qajar and Pahlavi era when Iran kick-started some projects to produce some basic medicines and equipment. Still today, Iran is dependent on foreign countries for most of its medical needs from lab equipment to heart lung machines and from CT-scanners to dialysis machines as well as many medicines and chemicals. But this industry in Iran employs a couple of hundred thousand people producing some low quality equipment and a large portion of Iran's requirement of medicines. If Iran was to import all of that instead of having this industry which still can not function without foreign inputs of various varieties, Iran's GDP would shrink by a few percentage. Again another segment of highly skilled workforce of Iran will have to be plowing fields instead of working as inefficient producers of medical products. Is it wise to have this industry? Why should Iran manufacture low quality acetaminophen and amoxicillin if higher quality ones can be imported? Is it wise to have a bio-medical industry in Iran?

Look at Iran's oil industry. This is one of the oldest industries of Iran, over 110 years old and is the main money making machine without whose existence, Iran's quality of life would not be any different than Afghanistan. Still it can not function without foreign help. It need not only technical assistance from foreign countries but even investment from foreign countries, since Iran spends all the money this industry makes and is forced to look up to foreigners to finance new projects. After 110 years, still Iran does not have a single oil company comparable to Shell, Exxon or Nippon. To this day, Iran needs to import spares for its oil refinery, oil rigs and oil wells from foreign countries and often can not finish a single large project without foreign help. But this industry is the life-line of Iran employing about 5% of Iran's work force and clock 90% of Iran's exports. Should we bring back Anglo-Persian oil company, sign a long term 100 year contract and give the ownership of all Iran's hydrocarbon reserves to it in return for a fixed percentage of sales?

This is the story of every single industry in Iran. What you say about Aerospace industry is no more different than any other industry. If this is the case, then we should stop kidding ourselves. For instance why Iran is producing quarter of a million engineers every year when they can not run not even a single industry efficiently? Why Iran is producing half a million gradates in sciences when they will have to go on and sit on their arsses expecting high quality jobs that do not exist since the country does not have the capacity to have aerospace, automobile, rail, marine, medical, petrochemical and etc etc industries? Why so much of the nation's resources are to be spent on such universities, when there is to be no industry?

My friend, the objection that you have raised, is honest only when you are a young person studying in West to be an aerospace engineer and aspiring to work for a Western giant in the field. When applied to a young Iranian who has dreams much like you, this objection of yours, becomes dishonest. Because either we have to tell this young Iranian to go and plow the fields and don't bother to study becoming an aerospace engineer or a petrochemical engineer or etc etc and instead focus on learning farsh-baafi and namad-saazi or we have to provide subsidized and inefficient industrial structures producing substandard products to employ these young aspiring Iranians. Both choices are stark and unpleasant. But then this is . That is to say, we either have the choice to live a miserable, inefficient un-industrial life or alternatively a less miserable, but equally inefficient industrialized life. Shah thought the industrial way is better. IRI thought the same. I think the same. I am not sure if you have made your mind.

And before you come to claim that aerospace industry is different being a safety conscious and ethical industry, let's not get into that.

About ethics, I have this ethical exercise for you to ponder on. Various estimates put Iran's requirement for new planes at 150 to 500 over the next few decades. Say we take the average plausible number of 300 new planes. If we assume the average purchase and spare parts cost of each plane from Airbus to be 400 million do

With all due respect but This is the Communist attitude that I'm taking about. This is the communist attitude that has made Iran to be ranked 107th in prosperity index. . Quality Quality Quality. This is the reason why almost all Russian/Ukraining aircraft manufacturers have gone bankrupt. You can not compare Automotive industry to aircraft industry in Iran because of demand deficit. Iran khodro produces 550 thousand cars per year however according to the minister of transportation Iran would need 400 to 500 airplanes in 5 to 10 years. An aircraft manufacturer like airbus can produce 700 to 800 planes per year. Thats usually the production rate of a standard aircraft manufacturer. Even if you want all 400 aircrafts to be manufacutred in Iran it would not take more than 9 months to be manufactured after that you close down unless you have more orders which is very unlikely. In aircraft manufacturing you either have to be very good at it or not just do it. Let me give you an example Bombardier is the World's third largest aircraft manufacturer with nearly 70 years of experience in aircraft manufacturing. Cseries have been disaster so far. It was supposed to be a strong competitor against Boeing 737 and a320. Losing competition after competition Bombardier has laid off thousands of workers engineers and technicians. Cseries is a high quality hi tech aircraft that is as good as a320neo but since it offers nothing new and it is bombariders first attempt in medium range airliner customers both in Canada and abroad tend to go with the brands that have proven themselves like airbus or Boeing. Look at Russia's Aerospace industry why is it that the world shows no interest in airplanes they are offering. Why is it the 85 percent of Russia's national flag carrier Aeroflot operates either Airbus or Boeing? precisely because of the same attitude you have, sacrificing quality over " quantity, self-reliability, self-supporting" this bad persian attitude " کارو راه میندازه " . Iran's aviation industry has showed very littile or no intrest in Russian made products. I know an expert in the field who works for سازمان هواپیمایی کشوری. I was talking to him two months ago he said despite 35 years of US embargo Iranian carrier would much rather purchase old second handed Western Aircrafts than brand new Russian planes. When I asked why he put it in plane persian and said صنعت هوانوردی ایران با هواپیمای غربی خو گرفته . It is very unlikely that Iranian carriers would show any intreset in Iranian Made Russian planes. They haven't shown such interest during the last 35 years only 20 percent of Iran's civil aviation fleet is Russian made. 80% of Canada's aerospace revenue comes from exports. This is an export based industry, the industry will not survive unless you can convince foreigners.

Additionally you are making all these assumptions on the basis that the Russians would agree to transfer the superjet100 technology. I have news for you Superjet 100 which is by far the best Russian passenger plane relies heavily on Foreign suppliers. France, Germany, Israel, even Japan and Canada . Take the avionics systems It's either based on the The french company ECE or the German/swiss Company of Rohde & Schwarz. Landing gears are also made in France. Thales Group in Canada as well. You can't ask Russian to transfer technologies that don't belong to them. I can assure you that they won't agree. Iran's weather condition is not compatable with Russian engines. This was the main obstacle in buying Tu-204. It's either have to be Pratt Whitney or Rolls Royce. SO avionics is made outside of Russia, the fuel system is american, the engines either have to be british or american, Landing gears are made in France, Italians played a signifant role both in design and development, the rest is Russian. Practicly speaking Iran does not have problems in assembly or fusalge design, Iran's problem is propolsion and avionics. The two most important part are made outside of Russia.

If you think aircraft assembly creates jobs for aerospace engineers or mechanical engineers you are wrong the maximum number of people working in Bombardier Q400 assembly are 200. In Seattle less than 5000 people work in Boeing 787 assembly which is the world's biggest aircraft assembly. Airbus assebly line in taijin in China operates between 500 to 600 people no more.

You want my opinion about what Iran should do in regards to Aerospace I tell you . Investment in Aerospace R&D. With every investment you make in Aerospace-related R&D you get 250% interest in return. Just like Germany just like Japan just like south Korea these countries never engaged themselves with building wide body or narrow body airliners ( except just recently Mitsubushi in Japan after 58 years of supplying Aircraft manufacturers). Instead they became the world's biggest suppliers of aerospace industrial equipments. Did you know the Last year Germany made more money with exporting Aircraft materials than Russia made in the last 7 years with selling its passenger airplanes .So you ask me, I say Iran should become a major supplier of Airbus and Boeing and other aircraft manufacturers. You want Iran to have an aircraft manufacturing company I say business jet manufacturer is the best to way to go. Because in Business aviation by just convincing Iranian Millionaires you can land a couple of hundred orders. That industry can boom. Only if the government shows strong dedication to privatization and relaxing air travel regulation in the country. The best role model Iran can have is Grob aircraft in Germany.


Aerospace is more than Aircraft manufacturing most of my friends who graduated went to wok for train manufacturers or automotive manufacturers. Aerospace is divided into multiple streams with applications in everything. Aerodynamics ( this is critical in ship, vehicle, train or any moving industrial object or transportation structures). Propulsion and vehicle performance ( The same technology is used in wind energy) it has maritime application as well. Take aerospace systems and electronics engineering from telecommunication to airborne remote sensing to power generation. Defence companies in America are the main employers of Aerospace graduates.

 

[Daneshmand]

QUOTE="BordoEnes, post: 7391849, member: 38977"]Let me answer those questions in their respective order. Nope not a cadet, as i said i have yet to start to study. I am not sponsored by anyone(You can do that? Holy shitt any idea how this will be accomplished?). Not familair with international degree's but i think it was bachelor. Dont have the slightest clue of much im gonna pay but im ready for anything for this study.it will be in The netherlands, Amsterdam, Hogeschool van Amsterdam: Aviation.

You can essentialy go anyway you want with the study after the first year(So engineer, pilot, concept designer etc you know it).[ QUOTE]

I see you are from Turkey. Turkish Airlines has a cadet program for Turkish citizens. It is sponsored by the airline. They will pay your entire tuition. You'll have to go through a number of examinations if you pass then you will be sent to Florida and upon graduation you will be hired as a second officer. After 4 years you will be upgraded to first officer. Austrian has also a cadet program. Airline Cadet program for EU citizens is quit famous. In Middle East UAE has the best pilot cadet program but the thing is that it is only for UAE nationals.
You ask me the best way to become a pilot is either through the military or Airline sponsored cadet programs. They pay your tuition and you'll have a guaranteed job after graduation. Pilot training is expensive. Minimum 60K to 80K. Job opportunities are limited to your flying hours. You'll have to log at least 2500 hours before being hired by a good regional airline. That takes about 4 to 6 years. During that 4 to 6 years you basically have live with poverty wages either work as a flight instructor or have impressive connections. either way that initial 4 to 6 years is the most challenging and requires a lot of dedication. But as soon as you land a good job on a jet glass cockpit and log 3000 hours you are good to go for the rest of your life. so if you are 18 or 19 it will take you 1 to 3 years to finish up your training. But I guarantee until the age of 30 you re gonna have a hard time.
A friend of mine in the aerospace engineering program took pilot training in summer months. He graduated with a degree in engineering and PPL and CPL as well. So he was an engineer and a pilot. He was hired by bombardier as flight test engineer. Initially he was just an engineer inside the airplane during system checks but very soon he found himself in cockpit. That PPL and CPL helped him alot. He became test pilot engineer. He has logged thousands of flight hours. Gets paid 80K a year. Of course in Canada. I would suggest you do the same. Engineering would be a much better option. Unless you are an aviation enthusiast that is insane about aviation and is willing to do all it takes.




With all due respect but This is the Communist attitude that I'm taking about. This is the communist attitude that has made Iran to be ranked 107th in prosperity index. . Quality Quality Quality. This is the reason why almost all Russian/Ukraining aircraft manufacturers have gone bankrupt. You can not compare Automotive industry to aircraft industry in Iran because of demand deficit. Iran khodro produces 550 thousand cars per year however according to the minister of transportation Iran would need 400 to 500 airplanes in 5 to 10 years. An aircraft manufacturer like airbus can produce 700 to 800 planes per year. Thats usually the production rate of a standard aircraft manufacturer. Even if you want all 400 aircrafts to be manufacutred in Iran it would not take more than 9 months to be manufactured after that you close down unless you have more orders which is very unlikely. In aircraft manufacturing you either have to be very good at it or not just do it. Let me give you an example Bombardier is the World's third largest aircraft manufacturer with nearly 70 years of experience in aircraft manufacturing. Cseries have been disaster so far. It was supposed to be a strong competitor against Boeing 737 and a320. Losing competition after competition Bombardier has laid off thousands of workers engineers and technicians. Cseries is a high quality hi tech aircraft that is as good as a320neo but since it offers nothing new and it is bombariders first attempt in medium range airliner customers both in Canada and abroad tend to go with the brands that have proven themselves like airbus or Boeing. Look at Russia's Aerospace industry why is it that the world shows no interest in airplanes they are offering. Why is it the 85 percent of Russia's national flag carrier Aeroflot operates either Airbus or Boeing? precisely because of the same attitude you have, sacrificing quality over " quantity, self-reliability, self-supporting" this bad persian attitude " کارو راه میندازه " . Iran's aviation industry has showed very littile or no intrest in Russian made products. I know an expert in the field who works for سازمان هواپیمایی کشوری. I was talking to him two months ago he said despite 35 years of US embargo Iranian carrier would much rather purchase old second handed Western Aircrafts than brand new Russian planes. When I asked why he put it in plane persian and said صنعت هوانوردی ایران با هواپیمای غربی خو گرفته . It is very unlikely that Iranian carriers would show any intreset in Iranian Made Russian planes. They haven't shown such interest during the last 35 years only 20 percent of Iran's civil aviation fleet is Russian made. 80% of Canada's aerospace revenue comes from exports. This is an export based industry, the industry will not survive unless you can convince foreigners.

Additionally you are making all these assumptions on the basis that the Russians would agree to transfer the superjet100 technology. I have news for you Superjet 100 which is by far the best Russian passenger plane relies heavily on Foreign suppliers. France, Germany, Israel, even Japan and Canada . Take the avionics systems It's either based on the The french company ECE or the German/swiss Company of Rohde & Schwarz. Landing gears are also made in France. Thales Group in Canada as well. You can't ask Russian to transfer technologies that don't belong to them. I can assure you that they won't agree. Iran's weather condition is not compatable with Russian engines. This was the main obstacle in buying Tu-204. It's either have to be Pratt Whitney or Rolls Royce. SO avionics is made outside of Russia, the fuel system is american, the engines either have to be british or american, Landing gears are made in France, Italians played a signifant role both in design and development, the rest is Russian. Practicly speaking Iran does not have problems in assembly or fusalge design, Iran's problem is propolsion and avionics. The two most important part are made outside of Russia.

If you think aircraft assembly creates jobs for aerospace engineers or mechanical engineers you are wrong the maximum number of people working in Bombardier Q400 assembly are 200. In Seattle less than 5000 people work in Boeing 787 assembly which is the world's biggest aircraft assembly. Airbus assebly line in taijin in China operates between 500 to 600 people no more.

You want my opinion about what Iran should do in regards to Aerospace I tell you . Investment in Aerospace R&D. With every investment you make in Aerospace-related R&D you get 250% interest in return. Just like Germany just like Japan just like south Korea these countries never engaged themselves with building wide body or narrow body airliners ( except just recently Mitsubushi in Japan after 58 years of supplying Aircraft manufacturers). Instead they became the world's biggest suppliers of aerospace industrial equipments. Did you know the Last year Germany made more money with exporting Aircraft materials than Russia made in the last 7 years with selling its passenger airplanes .So you ask me, I say Iran should become a major supplier of Airbus and Boeing and other aircraft manufacturers. You want Iran to have an aircraft manufacturing company I say business jet manufacturer is the best to way to go. Because in Business aviation by just convincing Iranian Millionaires you can land a couple of hundred orders. That industry can boom. Only if the government shows strong dedication to privatization and relaxing air travel regulation in the country. The best role model Iran can have is Grob aircraft in Germany.


Aerospace is more than Aircraft manufacturing most of my friends who graduated went to wok for train manufacturers or automotive manufacturers. Aerospace is divided into multiple streams with applications in everything. Aerodynamics ( this is critical in ship, vehicle, train or any moving industrial object or transportation structures). Propulsion and vehicle performance ( The same technology is used in wind energy) it has maritime application as well. Take aerospace systems and electronics engineering from telecommunication to airborne remote sensing to power generation. Defence companies in America are the main employers of Aerospace graduates.

I am sorry but the quality of your post dropped significantly. You did not answer the questions I raised in response to your initial challenge to me. Rationally, you should have. Here are some points to keep in mind:

* Please when writing, make sure you format it in neat paragraphs. It makes it easier for a reader to read them since the visual field is not overwhelmed. You are about to become an engineer, and this must show in your writing. Not only your writing should be in a coherent and neatly styled blocks instead of one long fused text, but also it must be scientific and logical.

* Please do understand that, Iran is neither a communist nor a capitalist system or any variations of. Neither Iran can be. These are Western systems, invented by West. Iran is still living in dark ages when it comes to politico-economic theory implemented in society (there is no formal economic system in Iran). So calling me a communist again and again has no bearing. If Iran was actually a communist country then you would expect to see such things in Iran which you actually do not:

Four Modernizations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

863 Program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

* From job creation point of view, a company like Bombardier or such do not employ "200" engineers. There is a supply chain, manufacturing components, assembly, oversight systems in manufacturing, design, test, prototyping, PM, etc etc and while in one site, it is possible there might be only 200 employed but over all there will be thousands of engineers who will be directly connected to such a company and tens of thousands indirectly. To say Iran should not have an aerospace industry because, it wont employ people is a dishonest opinion in my view, unless you believe it to be true for every other country out there in which case then it becomes just an opinion not an argument.

* First you start building something and then overtime you improve on quality. You can not build something to be of extremely high quality on your first try, or your 10th try. It will take the formation of a manufacturing culture about to mature, that realizes ways to improve quality. No manufacturing, no quality.

* Iran does not need, neither can nor will become Airbus. Iran just needs to meet its own demand with maybe a small export. Just assembling 30 planes a year will do fine.

* You said: "In aircraft manufacturing you either have to be very good at it or not just do it." I guess you did not look at the links I provided to you in my earlier reply. You have to be good at everything you do. Not only aircraft manufacturing. Iran has a very high DALY rate in oral diseases. More life-years are lost to this, than can ever be lost to aviation accidents in Iran even if Iran starts making the crappiest planes in the history of universe.

* Iran needs to industrialize. No matter what. Even if it has to come at the price of not sacrificing but actually slaughtering and barbecuing the quality. Without industrialization, Iran has no chance to improve the quality of life for its citizen, since the natural resources are depleting, population is increasing and rapidly aging with Iran's population pyramid inverting in the next 20 years as population growth become negative. If Iran is to avoid a catastrophic social collapse, then this is the only way. You are worried about the quality of planes and I am worried about if Iran will come out in one piece after this pyramid inversion.

* Iran's aviation industry must be weaned off their ridiculous attitude, expectation and sense of entitlement to fly only the best world has to offer. They should start to learn flying made in Iran planes. If they were patriotic enough, they would have themselves demanded for it. This third world mentality that ascribes the sense of entitlement to fly and drive the best world has to offer without ever having any desire to design and manufacture their own, is the root cause of Iran's problems as well as the rest of the third world.

* You said: "صنعت هوانوردی ایران با هواپیمای غربی خو گرفته". First of all what is خو ? In engineering we do not have anything like خو. And even if this is the case, it is now the time to change this خو. They should start to train their خو to love what they can produce with their own hands and abilities.

* I do not think Iran should form an economy based on exports of manufactured goods. Since Iranian society's productivity is so extremely low that any product manufactured in Iran even with massive energy subsidies will not be able to compete globally. Whether in aerospace or anything else. Iran should follow the "failed" model of import substitution to the letter since it has no other option. It is either this or an agrarian life. You choose.

* You are right that I am assuming about Russians agreeing to this. But everything starts with a suggestion and an assumption. Beside, my assumption is not empty. There were already some talks on Tu204 and Tu-334 in past. Russians actually were eager to sell the manufacturing license (though at a hefty price of billions) since they needed the money to develop and design a whole new lineup of planes. The attitude of Iran's aviation industry was more of a deal breaker than the Russian refusal. The same attitude that only Airbus and Boeing will do since we are Sheikhs of Middle East.

* Superjet is out of question. It is a new plane developed by Russia and the Russians will never share its license. Besides, it uses alot of Western components so, Iran will never get license to produce those. What Iran can get is the design of these two old planes Tu-204, il-96 and (if possible to revive) the Tu-334. These designs are now pretty much useless for Russia and the world. If the under sanctions Russia sells them to Iran, it can use the money it gets from Iran to develop new planes and save Russian aerospace industry. The same way Rossatom was saved through building Bushehr power plant (in 1990's Bushehr was their only dollar earner).

* Iran does not have any potential for R&D in any sector be it aerospace or something else. The max Iran can do (I repeat the MAX), is to reverse engineer something. Iran is not Japan. Iran is not Germany. The concept of R&D and product development and testing does not exist in Iran. If Iran continued to "hoard" technologies by buying them from this or that (for example aerospace from Russia), then maybe and it is a very weak maybe, towards the end of this century we might see Iran reaching the maturity to step into serious R&D.

* Iran's aim should not be to compete with Airbus or with Germany. Iran's aim should be to join 21st century while this century is still here. There is only one way to do that. Set up all kinds of industries and hook up the society on them. As Shah did with auto industry. Now Iranians no matter how much they complain about Iranian autos, can not and will never be able to get rid of this industry even if they wanted. Because if they get rid of it, the economy would shrink by so much that there will even be a possibility of state melt down and civil war. Now Iranians have the choice to improve the quality of these cars and go into auto R&D or alternatively continue on with their lives as they are doing now. But Iran can not go back to importing Fords and Chevrolets. The same thing should happen with every other industry. From aerospace to electronics and from biotech to energy. This is Iran's only salvation since this nation only progresses and starts to work when this becomes the only possibility in life. Not out of choice but out of misery.

* I agree with you on privatization, as long as it is modeled after the Chinese way of doing it. That is no-non-sense way of doing it. Otherwise the privatization that has been happening in Iran till now has been haifomal. But this will only take you tso far. Since all Iranians (perhaps with exception of Tabrizis and Yazdis) are not industrious people. They prefer to buy the best of best in the world but have no desire to manufacture their own. That is why any industrialization effort in Iran must be led by the government itself in large part. Private participation should be expected much later as people start thinking differently. More important than regulation and privatization is to ensure the rule of law (right now Iran is lawless compared to developed countries). It does not matter which kind of law. Any law. But it should be implemented and be the same for EVERYONE.