Involve Israel and Singapore in the MCA project

[KS]

Well obviously the government man

Why they wont allow..? any reasons u suspect..?

 

[Ras]

All Indian defense projects in the recent past have had a lot of Israeli involvement one way or the other. The MCA will be no different.

 

[jha]

Guys..no need to be sarcastic on an honest opinion of a patriotic indian...

Although a JV with ISRAEL will certainly boost AMCA but i dont think HAL will go for it..However we will see a lot of subsystems being developed jointly for AMCA...some with Isralel, some with Russia and maybe some with France..
We will be having best of the systems available in AMCA...
There is no harm in going GRIPEN way if this is to be used for our own purpose.. In the mean time let our DRDO develop the systems..

 

[arihant]

Involve Pakistan and china in the MCA project..

ha ha.

 

[keeninterest]

there is a lot of difference between MCA and AMCA, and what we now have is AMCA and not MCA, a concept which has been scrapped for quite sometime now.

someone rightly pointed out to the huge financial assistance that is doled out to israel by the USA and the EU which obliges them to source their military equipment from both the USA and the EU and not from other countries. with other countries they primarily work on certain sub-systems and systems which are not of huge strategic significance.

israel is about to sign a deal for initial 25 f-35 with LM anytime now as per the spokesperson of LM and the first country to do so out of the partner countries with an option of 50 more. the day the funding of f-22 is restarted and the day f-22 was to ever be exported, rest assured it will be to israel. the sourcing of f15s was stopped in favour of f-35 the procurement of which will be fast tracked for them, so clearly there in no "need" on part of israel to look else where.

singapore again looks to source all its military equipment of strategic significance from the USA and to a very less extent from the EU and is a key allay of the USA outside the NATO, highly unlikely that they will be "allowed" to look else where, had it been sub-systems, story would have been a lot different.

the two countries will be involved if need be but that will be purely be for manufacture of sub-systems for which there will be JVs where complete ToT will be involved and if that cant happen then they will be contracted/subcontracted for manufacture of such systems.

there remains a russian angle and it is assumed MiG might be contacted if we were to be in a real need of a partner which has a 5th gen project in a similar weight category but this time the lead partner will be HAL, with manufacturing happening in india unlike what happened in the case of PAKFA (we have had preliminary discussions with the russians and the details of which are under study by HAL). mind you, this is just a proposal and if HAL decides they have to go alone they very well will.

 

[jha]

there is a lot of difference between MCA and AMCA, and what we now have is AMCA and not MCA, a concept which has been scrapped for quite sometime now.

someone rightly pointed out to the huge financial assistance that is doled out to israel by the USA and the EU which obliges them to source their military equipment from both the USA and the EU and not from other countries. with other countries they primarily work on certain sub-systems and systems which are not of huge strategic significance.

israel is about to sign a deal for initial 25 f-35 with LM anytime now as per the spokesperson of LM and the first country to do so out of the partner countries with an option of 50 more. the day the funding of f-22 is restarted and the day f-22 was to ever be exported, rest assured it will be to israel. the sourcing of f15s was stopped in favour of f-35 the procurement of which will be fast tracked for them, so clearly there in no "need" on part of israel to look else where.

singapore again looks to source all its military equipment of strategic significance from the USA and to a very less extent from the EU and is a key allay of the USA outside the NATO, highly unlikely that they will be "allowed" to look else where, had it been sub-systems, story would have been a lot different.

the two countries will be involved if need be but that will be purely be for manufacture of sub-systems for which there will be JVs where complete ToT will be involved and if that cant happen then they will be contracted/subcontracted for manufacture of such systems.

there remains a russian angle and it is assumed MiG might be contacted if we were to be in a real need of a partner which has a 5th gen project in a similar weight category but this time the lead partner will be HAL, with manufacturing happening in india unlike what happened in the case of PAKFA (we have had preliminary discussions with the russians and the details of which are under study by HAL). mind you, this is just a proposal and if HAL decides they have to go alone they very well will.

Yes..We might take some help from LMFS project...

 

[Guynextdoor]

Hmmm...interesting points on how financial assistance from US obliges them to buy US stuff...however, Israel also has a thriving defence tech industry. I've always believed that they liked working with India because while they can focus on Innovation, they can also leverage our natural industrial strength to become big producers. Lots of their limitations can be overcome working with us. Plus- remember Israel DID want to create & induct it's own fighter- The LAVI, in which they failed. By becoming full partners with us, they'll be able to get a shot at it again. I think it's on the whole a good idea and worth exploring. Besides- they're friends.

 

[Tshering22]

Guys too much focus only on Israel. I said Israel AND Singapore as security cooperation participants.

Also you forgot to reply to my fact that:

1) Israel was recently refused the F-15 Silent Eagle for their old F-15s

2) Singapore will need a complementary fighter to their new F-15SG when their F-16s will be getting replaced in 10-15 years of time.

 

[Dash]

We need foreign partners not for funding but strengthening our strategic reach even more and to expedite the process which is as we know very slow in our government circles. With countries onboard, our government will be forced to perform better for prestige and image sakes as well as to deliver its committment rather than the pathetic performance it showed during the era of Tejas LCA development and Arjun tank. Even now we don't have enough infrastructure to conduct our own flight tests and have to go to Gromov test centre in Russia for conducting advanced tests while China already has such facilities at home.

Singapore and Israel are high profile countries in terms of defense and therefore getting them as strategic partners and committed customers would only enhance our abilities.

Thanks for the honest openion. At least you think on these lines so ...Good.

But strategic reach with these two countries, we dont need such a big project like AMCA to be partnered with them.

AMCA itself is a project that will test our technical prowess, which will heavily draw its structure and avionics to engine from various JVs, that are already in place.

It will bring knowledge from FGFA, Radar JV with Isreal(already in way we are partnered), consultation from France or Europe for Engine. As you can see we have already partnered with many countries to gain knoledge or strategic reach with each of these countrties directly and most already indirectly influencing AMCA.

So NO need to call in for more partners, we will be testing our knowledge gained with thsi project.

and to be honest, both Israel and Sigapore are not worth for a venture like this. they can be kept happy in other ways and they already are. So already are in a strategic partnership with them. So this will be a not that good idea.

 

[Dash]

Guys too much focus only on Israel. I said Israel AND Singapore as security cooperation participants.

Also you forgot to reply to my fact that:

1) Israel was recently refused the F-15 Silent Eagle for their old F-15s

2) Singapore will need a complementary fighter to their new F-15SG when their F-16s will be getting replaced in 10-15 years of time.

We can always sell this to them in case they want it. If it turns out to be good then you never know they might get it.

it doesnt necesarily come through a partnrship. does it?

 

[jha]

We can always sell this to them in case they want it. If it turns out to be good then you never know they might get it.

it doesnt necesarily come through a partnrship. does it?

Building something alone is a thing of past now...Its better to form a JV with a leader in the field or, atleast buy from them rather than trying to develop these same things on our own and spend years on reinventing a wheel..
A JV with Israel is imminent for atleast MAYAWI , with Russia for AAMs.... ..

 

[your fear]

well russia and isreal is good option

 

[Dash]

Building something alone is a thing of past now...Its better to form a JV with a leader in the field or, atleast buy from them rather than trying to develop these same things on our own and spend years on reinventing a wheel..
A JV with Israel is imminent for atleast MAYAWI , with Russia for AAMs.... ..

Jhaji...

I think you missed my whole point. Building something on own is not a past thing, and reinventing the wheel still happens in most part of the world.

We have already invented the wheel in LCA project and already partnered with a lot for LCA Mk2 project.

AMCA will not be a reinvention. It will be an application where will serve as our test bed for next gen techs....and some of these techs most countries dont have and we wouldnt want to have them. It will be our closely guarded secret.

Ask China if they will partner with Russia or anyone for their 5th gen project.
Russia only allowed us for funding reasons and thats the hard fact.

We were at receiving end before we completed LCA, now we are not, so why ?

 

[sancho]

Guys too much focus only on Israel. I said Israel AND Singapore as security cooperation participants.

Also you forgot to reply to my fact that:

1) Israel was recently refused the F-15 Silent Eagle for their old F-15s

2) Singapore will need a complementary fighter to their new F-15SG when their F-16s will be getting replaced in 10-15 years of time.

The idea is good, but it's not going to happen for the simple reason that AMCA would only come by 2025, but Israel and Singapore can get F35 way earlier and they have good relations to the US, which makes such a team up doubtful.
Also as amit27 said, Israel is very dependent on fundings from the US, not to mention on the pressure of the US weapon industry.

Personally I wouldn't even go for AMCA at all, because it doesn't make sense to have 2 similar 5. gen fighter projects running besides each other. We will have LCAs, MMRCA and even MKIs for decades, adding another fighter is simply not needed, the stealth UCAV project instead would be much better. Unmanned aircrafts are the future, so we should focus on such a project, instead of just another 5. gen fighter. Stealth design, a derivate of the Kaveri engine possibly, latest A2G weapons and the unmanned controls will be difficult enough for us and more than an ambitious project.

5. gen Pak Fa / FGFA and 5. gen UCAV
4.5 gen LCA MK2, MMRCA and upg MKIs
4. gen LCA MK1, MKIs and till 2025 upg Mirage and Mig 29s

 

[Tshering22]

The idea is good, but it's not going to happen for the simple reason that AMCA would only come by 2025, but Israel and Singapore can get F35 way earlier and they have good relations to the US, which makes such a team up doubtful.

Don't see the pleasant riding for Israel these day, do we? Both Singapore and Israel would just need to be committed security cooperative partners that's all since we're already investing into the technology with our money, in exchange we get their stronger alliance.

Also as amit27 said, Israel is very dependent on fundings from the US, not to mention on the pressure of the US weapon industry.

We're asking their technology inputs apart from our own for better inter-operability. Not funds.

Personally I wouldn't even go for AMCA at all, because it doesn't make sense to have 2 similar 5. gen fighter projects running besides each other

So you think that USA and Russia are nuts having run 2 5th gen programs together with their F-35 AND f-22 and PAKFA and LMFA?

We will have LCAs, MMRCA and even MKIs for decades, adding another fighter is simply not needed, the stealth UCAV project instead would be much better.

That's stretching the imagination a bit too much. If you noticed, we're having hell making our first medium endurance UAV itself and you're talking about taking a leaf out of the British Taranis?

LCA and MRCA are the cost effective second-tier security measures needed to replace older fighters en-masse with decently cutting edge tech. I am sure we can't afford to dump both LCA and MRCA and wait for another 20 years to get all 850+ stealth fighters.. Nor the budget at an estimated $100 million per piece.

Unmanned aircrafts are the future, so we should focus on such a project, instead of just another 5. gen fighter. Stealth design, a derivate of the Kaveri engine possibly, latest A2G weapons and the unmanned controls will be difficult enough for us and more than an ambitious project.

Ambitious but not happening in Asia for at least another two decades. Chinese are ahead of us in fighter programs and they've just managed to break through the engine and 4th gen fighter technology on their own. You think we're ready to get all that with no test facilities, no mass aviation infrastructure, a shoestring budget and government management?

3 years back I was given a pleasant jolt when I heard that we're even considering inducting a 5th gen manned fighter due to the condition here in India.

Buddy, your list is something that'd be possible in a country with a decent and caring government apart from rich. But in India that's not coming anywhere until next 2 decades.