Internal Decay

[fatman17]

Ideally, yes - I had thought that when we discussed Mr. Gen Kiyani Extension, we agreed that

The PPP government is a absolute mess - the only thing it seems to understand is self interest of it's party office bearers - but sir, there is an ISPR, for reasons other than churning out soap operas?

There is something here that just needs saying - the reason neither the civilian government nor the Armed forces ISPR have or will fashion, craft messages to create in the mind of the public a clear narrative about who we are, who the terrorists are, what they believe and what we believe -- is ---- that radicalism in society is not just widespread, but is a mainstream political force and while the civilian government courts that support for it's petty political battles aver Dollars or Rupees and turf, the army is aware that the militant message has appeal within it's own ranks.

What we have essentially, is the state and the insurgent arguing about what is Islam -- Now you and also Araz and Asim, may think that the this 80% in the middle want reconciliation and perhaps a referendum or debates on the finer points of radical religion is what these 80% in the middle want -- but you could not be more wrong - The people know who and what the enemy is, they know who is killing them and why -- they also know who is not protecting them and they know why -- so they are hedging their bets, so to speak, and will continue to do so - until they hear an unequivocal message and see clearly that the army is serious about protecting them and killing the insurgent.

i dont support radical islam - coming to fashioning a policy against the militants, it has to start from the elected civilian govt and then the constitutionally subserviant army and ISPR will dictate that policy. dont equate the govt with the ISPR. isnt this the politically correct way of doing things in our country. isnt this what we all want or we want the army to have its own way.

 

[fatman17]

Till we see and can evaluate the substance of these changes, lets do what our conscience demands as a duty - and keep highlighting areas that should be looked at with a critical and with a view to correction.

indeed - but lets keep things in perspective - create a balance to our approach - good and bad!

 

[muse]

Like I said before Sir, When the Pakistani state wants, and the army is the most influential element of that state and society, it can move mountains overnight - when it wants, that is.

ISPR can be very influential in the construction of ideas within the army - when it is ordered to do so. Influence the army, influence society.

Thus far we are being fed the line that radicalism is a society wide problem and so since Army is part of society, it is also effected - however, it is also true that army is a very influential element within society --- Fix army, Fix Pakistan - If Pakistanis are to see change with regard to radicalism, certainly, the premier institution in the state and society should see it first - it seems to me.

You of course are aware of the De-radicalization program - if indeed radicalism is a society wide problem, don't you think that it's premier institution should be De-radicalized first?

 

[ranja]

I don't think Pakistan's nukes are in danger of any kind and am sure they are in safe hand. If there are few rouge officers or people in security establishment that doesn't mean they have the keys and know-how about nukes.Security of nukes and such strategic assets is always multilayered its not like one or two officers control evrything.Pakistan knows what danger these radicals and rouge eliments and above all terrorists pose and thats why their army is fighting them.

 

[muse]

lets keep things in perspective - create a balance to our approach - good and bad!

Certainly, we should keep our perspective -- but this business of balance in our approach - what's this about? Is there an amount of radicalism that is good for the professional army?? Unfortunately, well, i can't speak for others, but when we are pointing to a problem, there is no way, that I am aware of, to suggest that the problem is a net good as well as bad.

And if "praise" is what the army requires, why not earn it? Recall the public outcry before the Swat operation and the public reaction to that operation - it's not an exaggeration to say that the public overwhelmingly supported it - the public wants action against the Islamist enemy, they know who the enemy is and what it is about and why it is killing them - - and they are not stupid, they know when they are being protected and when they are not -- and look at the reaction of the public towards the relief effort of the armed forces - so it's easy, win the public, kill the islamist insurgent, kill their funders, kill the ideology itself, it's what the public want and it will propel the army to where it should be in the minds and hearts of the public.

 

[Sinnerman108]

How is this article called Internal Decay ?

Last I checked PA's moto was Jihad fee SabeelAllah. and it was a Voluntary force !

Last I checked, we the Muslims did every thing with Faith in Allah.

We the Muslims chant glory, for the 313 who defeated many many more @ Badr.

We the Muslims shall believe Allah's promise that he WILL give us victory, if we dedicate our lives for his religion's upheaval.

Am I NOT being forced to think otherwise ?

If at all, the moral decay is on part of people who think they can live separated from the word of Allah, and yet claim Allah's mercy.

I remember Allama Iqbal.

Hai Jihad eis daur mein, mard-e-Musalaman peh haraam.

 

[Sinnerman108]

For reference.

Allama Iqbal \ Armaghan-e-Hijaz \ Iblees ki Majlis-e-Shoura.

 

[muse]

i meet many young officers - they dont look and talk the language of the radical islamist.

That is reassuring - however, the worry of course is the Zia legacy officers.

 

[Rafi]

I have met many young officers who are absolutely secular in their outlook - and then a section who are very pious, the vast majority are some where in the middle.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

A fundamental shift is needed in the orientation of Pakistan Army, a shift from the Army of Islam to the Army of Pakistan. Somewhere, after 71’ debacle the shift happened and got consolidated by Zia-ul-Haq. This happened not only in the army but the whole population in general.

The way to do it is not to just start the process by de-radicalization of the armed forces only (After all we can on keep on cleaning up the mess and every year more radicalized elements will get inducted from the recruitment/induction of men and officers from a radicalized society). The solution lies in de- radicalization of the society as a whole and not just armed forces.

The process has to be two pronged and only requires that the old order be re-established sans some old traditions into the armed forces through strict adherence to already laid out policy directives like non-involvement in political activities etc. (Most of the religious parties are also political parties!!!)and tradition. The tradition that the namaz would be offered in the unit/garrison mosques and access of outsiders be severely restricted.

The societies built in the cantonment areas need to have their own mosques and not use garrison or unit prayer areas and vice versa.

This is too simplistic a solution but it is a start. However, the success – in long term--lies in converting the society back to a society with moderate views on religion.

 

[fatman17]

I have met many young officers who are absolutely secular in their outlook - and then a section who are very pious, the vast majority are some where in the middle.

that dosnt make them jihadist or radical. the majority of our population is conservative in nature but that dosnt make them jihadist or radical. yes there is a minority element.

---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:30 PM ----------

That is reassuring - however, the worry of course is the Zia legacy officers.

sir majority of them are either retired or retiring - the seniors have been 'weeded out' by musharraf and now kiyani.

 

[fatman17]

Certainly, we should keep our perspective -- but this business of balance in our approach - what's this about? Is there an amount of radicalism that is good for the professional army?? Unfortunately, well, i can't speak for others, but when we are pointing to a problem, there is no way, that I am aware of, to suggest that the problem is a net good as well as bad.

And if "praise" is what the army requires, why not earn it? Recall the public outcry before the Swat operation and the public reaction to that operation - it's not an exaggeration to say that the public overwhelmingly supported it - the public wants action against the Islamist enemy, they know who the enemy is and what it is about and why it is killing them - - and they are not stupid, they know when they are being protected and when they are not -- and look at the reaction of the public towards the relief effort of the armed forces - so it's easy, win the public, kill the islamist insurgent, kill their funders, kill the ideology itself, it's what the public want and it will propel the army to where it should be in the minds and hearts of the public.

my point was simple - cheer the good work the army does (or for that matter anyone) and yes critique their flaws (the badness). i've never maintained that the army is 'perfect' but when i look around and compare.......well you know what i mean!

 

[fatman17]

Like I said before Sir, When the Pakistani state wants, and the army is the most influential element of that state and society, it can move mountains overnight - when it wants, that is.

ISPR can be very influential in the construction of ideas within the army - when it is ordered to do so. Influence the army, influence society.

Thus far we are being fed the line that radicalism is a society wide problem and so since Army is part of society, it is also effected - however, it is also true that army is a very influential element within society --- Fix army, Fix Pakistan - If Pakistanis are to see change with regard to radicalism, certainly, the premier institution in the state and society should see it first - it seems to me.

You of course are aware of the De-radicalization program - if indeed radicalism is a society wide problem, don't you think that it's premier institution should be De-radicalized first?

my friend, de-radicalize the 60m population under the age of 25yrs who yearn for jobs, education and a sense of well being. what is the army in front of them!!!

 

[SQ8]

my friend, de-radicalize the 60m population under the age of 25yrs who yearn for jobs, education and a sense of well being. what is the army in front of them!!!

This should be the keystone of any nationwide de-radicalization. You cannot change the 30+ since their minds are already set..
The army too is eventually bound to draw on these 60m for its future recruits. Once you have a de-radicalized employee pool. The army's de-radicalization should be easier.. it is nothing short of a ten year process. But it can be done.
Question is , will a de-radicalization process that is too harsh on Islam in the population and in the army backfire?

 

[muse]

This should be the keystone of any nationwide de-radicalization. You cannot change the 30+ since their minds are already set..
The army too is eventually bound to draw on these 60m for its future recruits. Once you have a de-radicalized employee pool. The army's de-radicalization should be easier.. it is nothing short of a ten year process. But it can be done.
Question is , will a de-radicalization process that is too harsh on Islam in the population and in the army backfire?

And once this young man or woman, de-radicalized comes in to the army, he or she can then be indoctrinated by the Jihad stuff? Why such resistance friends? If De-radicalization is good for society, why is it bad for the army? And if De-radicalization is a general good, why not have it as soon as possible??