INS Vikrant, India's First Indigenous Aircraft Carrier, To Be Handed Over To Indian Navy In May

[HydraChess]

INS Vikrant (1961 to 1997) - This was India first aircraft carrier. This was a brand new zero mileage aircraft carrier with catapult launch and has an angle deck which at that time was an advance design. It operated the Seahawk which at that time was a very successful aircraft carrier based fighter.

Carriers are not like cars with milage. And that carrier you are referrring to was mothballed for about 13-15 years or so. From 1945-57. In 60s, top of the line carriers were American ones. But a light carrier was more than enough for Indian requirements : To enforce a naval blockade. Which is did successfully in 1971 against East Pakistan. I am yet to see if China has done anything similar against Taiwan.

 

[huanghong]

So?

Does having a lights on deck necessary for a landing test? Whats the point of all of this weird questioning?

Shall I also ask any proof of real or fakeness of Chinese Carriers? For instance, how do we know if Chinese carrier has any real operational capability besides just putting on a gong show as it has not seen an exercise outside of PLAN?

Point is simple : Do you have a proof that lights are a must for any night landing tests? Which operational manual are you referring to?


I do not understand what is the practical significance of matching EXACT to how US Navy or PLAN tests its capability and applying it exactly to IN? You asked for night landing and there is a video. Infact the landing happened in Pitch dark suggests a harder task and total reliance on instruments.

Quite simply, the lights are on during normal descent, so why train for a mission scenario that doesn't exist, or can you list the mission scenarios that need to be done? ?
I didn't ask for a video of the night landing, man. I'm just pointing out that turning off the deck lights on a night landing is always odd and not in line with the normal operating procedures of an aircraft carrier.

 

[HydraChess]

The planes are the least of their worries. They have an "operational" ship that sails two weeks every four years.

And they have no carrier operating right now have not for the past year.

You cannot do night landing when you hardly do any landings for years on end.

Unlike the Chinese carriers:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1517885761441648642

The blast shields are scorched black after a mission and tire marks all over the deck. And the Liaoning had patrolled multiple times this year:
View attachment 841245
View attachment 841246

Leave all of this. IN has experience of enforcing a naval blockade against East Pakistan -- then a US ally. Come back to me when China can do so against a US ally like Taiwan.

Quite simply, the lights are on during normal descent, so why train for a mission scenario that doesn't exist, or can you list the mission scenarios that need to be done? ?

How do you know that requirement does NOT exist? Have you exhaustively seen EVERY last requirement in EVERY scenario of carrier operation? If so I will like to see the proof of that.

I didn't ask for a video of the night landing, man. I'm just pointing out that turning off the deck lights on a night landing is always odd and not in line with the normal operating procedures of an aircraft carrier.

I am just pointing out that you do not know every scenrio of operation and possibilities in Navy. Does anyone here know it? Besides some pictures being regurgitated every now and then from QQ or some other Chinese sources, can people --including you-- even include ONE single authentic source (like a naval operational manual) or do half way decent analysis (based on academic sources).

We saw how Bulbous Bow talk with all of these charecters went. All these folks were acting as experts in CFD while confusing pitching of ship with "kowtowing". The word in english "kowtowing" does not even mean that. They did not even know how basic of Bulbous Bow work, if they had they would not have confused it.

 

[huanghong]

Leave all of this. IN has experience of enforcing a naval blockade against East Pakistan -- then a US ally. Come back to me when China can do so against a US ally like Taiwan.


How do you know that requirement does NOT exist? Have you exhaustively seen EVERY last requirement in EVERY scenario of carrier operation? If so I will like to see the proof of that.


I am just pointing out that you do not know every scenrio of operation and possibilities in Navy. Does anyone here know it? Besides some pictures being regurgitated every now and then from QQ or some other Chinese sources, can people --including you-- even include ONE single authentic source (like a naval operational manual) or do half way decent analysis (based on academic sources).

We saw how Bulbous Bow talk with all of these charecters went. All these folks were acting as experts in CFD while confusing pitching of ship with "kowtowing". The word in english "kowtowing" does not even mean that. They did not even know how basic of Bulbous Bow work, if they had they would not have confused it.

So what evidence do you have that this need exists? At least I didn't find that the US has something like turning off the deck lights during instrument landing, maybe you can provide that? ?

 

[HydraChess]

So what evidence do you have that this need exists? At least I didn't find that the US has something like turning off the deck lights during instrument landing, maybe you can provide that? ?

The very evidence is that such kind of video exist from IN. They had a need to test it like this, they did it. Simple!

USN needs or does not need is something only an operational planner from USN can answer to. If they had done such a test or not can only be answered by someone like that. Same goes to Chinese. You have to ask someone from PLAN and they will know if they felt a need for such a test or not.

You see as much US navy or Chinese navy posts online. They do not post exhaustively ALL their requirement or ALL their tactics or ALL their operational exercises. If they did it will be trouble for them. What you are seeing is incomplete picture. So you see some scenario shown in some exercise --which is published or leaked-- and some other somewhere else. Its not possible you will ever see a complete picture. For that you will have to join the navy and got into operational planning or a higher position in navy.

Lastly, whats such a fixation with lights? Can you spell it out?

 

[huanghong]

The very evidence is that such kind of video exist from IN. They had a need to test it like this, they did it. Simple!

USN needs or does not need is something only an operational planner from USN can answer to. If they had done such a test or not can only be answered by someone like that. Same goes to Chinese. You have to ask someone from PLAN and they will know if they felt a need for such a test or not.

You see as much US navy or Chinese navy posts online. They do not post exhaustively ALL their requirement or ALL their tactics or ALL their operational exercises. If they did it will be trouble for them. What you are seeing is incomplete picture. So you see some scenario shown in some exercise --which is published or leaked-- and some other somewhere else. Its not possible you will ever see a complete picture. For that you will have to join the navy and got into operational planning or a higher position in navy.

Lastly, whats such a fixation with lights? Can you spell it out?

By lights I mean Landing Deck Lights
Your video does not prove that this is an extreme test of performance, or normal operation of a carrier landing.

 

[HydraChess]

Can you please provide the source for this?

Sure! Here is an article from Flight Global, which includes an interview with Song Xue, deputy chief of staff of the Chinese navy at that time.

Chinese officer hints at country’s big aircraft carrier plans

China plans to build an aircraft carrier that is larger and can carry more aircraft than its current such warship, the Liaoning ...

www.flightglobal.com

Song says the current carrier falls directly under the command of naval headquarters, and is not assigned to any of China's three fleets. This is consistent with previous Chinese statements that the ship is not intended for operational use, but rather as a testbed for exploring carrier operations and doctrine. The Liaoning can carry up to 30 fighters, according to the official.

And here is an article from SCMP about the refit :

China’s Liaoning aircraft carrier gets brand new command centre

Photos show warship undergoing revamp with scaffolding around ‘island’

www.scmp.com

By lights I mean Landing Deck Lights
Your video does not prove that this is an extreme test of performance, or normal operation of a carrier landing.

True! It was a test but it proves landing capability in night. It tested particular scenario. BTW, this video is from 2018. So its already 4 years.

Lastly, I do not even know what do you mean by "Your video does not prove that this is an extreme test of performance". The video showed landing at night in pitch dark. If you think "normal operation" means Deck Lights, so it is simply beyond normal --unless I am missing something.

 

[huanghong]

By lights I mean Landing Deck Lights

Sure! Here is an article from Flight Global, which includes an interview with Song Xue, deputy chief of staff of the Chinese navy at that time.

Chinese officer hints at country’s big aircraft carrier plans

China plans to build an aircraft carrier that is larger and can carry more aircraft than its current such warship, the Liaoning ...

www.flightglobal.com

And here is an article from SCMP about the refit :

China’s Liaoning aircraft carrier gets brand new command centre

Photos show warship undergoing revamp with scaffolding around ‘island’

www.scmp.com

True! It was a test but it proves landing capability in night. It tested particular scenario. BTW, this video is from 2018. So its already 4 years.

Lastly, I do not even know what do you mean by "Your video does not prove that this is an extreme test of performance". The video showed landing at night in pitch dark. If you think "normal operation" means Deck Lights, so it is simply beyond normal --unless I am missing something.

Ah, I mean it's probably an extreme test rather than the usual night take-off and landing training.

Sure! Here is an article from Flight Global, which includes an interview with Song Xue, deputy chief of staff of the Chinese navy at that time.

Chinese officer hints at country’s big aircraft carrier plans

China plans to build an aircraft carrier that is larger and can carry more aircraft than its current such warship, the Liaoning ...

www.flightglobal.com

And here is an article from SCMP about the refit :

China’s Liaoning aircraft carrier gets brand new command centre

Photos show warship undergoing revamp with scaffolding around ‘island’

www.scmp.com

True! It was a test but it proves landing capability in night. It tested particular scenario. BTW, this video is from 2018. So its already 4 years.

Lastly, I do not even know what do you mean by "Your video does not prove that this is an extreme test of performance". The video showed landing at night in pitch dark. If you think "normal operation" means Deck Lights, so it is simply beyond normal --unless I am missing something.

This is a wrong statement. According to the regulations of the Chinese Navy, the command of the aircraft carrier has always belonged to the Naval Headquarters instead of the three major fleets, which has nothing to do with whether it is a training ship or not.
According to reports in 2020, the command of the Liaoning aircraft carrier still belongs to the naval headquarters rather than the three major fleets

“辽宁舰”舰长什么军衔下辖2600多人，战区司令员无权任命！

“辽宁舰”舰长什么军衔下辖2600多人，战区司令员无权任命！,

www.163.com

 

[HydraChess]

Ah, I mean it's probably an extreme test rather than the usual night take-off and landing training.

Yes, its most likely an extreme test to check the instrument landing capabiliy if there was poor visibility due to heavy fog and at night. This is my guess too. It might be a requirement for IN. It does however prove that they can land aircrafts at night on carriers as someone was asking.

 

[huanghong]

Yes, its most likely an extreme test to check the instrument landing capabiliy if there was poor visibility due to heavy fog and at night. This is my guess too. It might be a requirement for IN. It does however prove that they can land aircrafts at night on carriers as someone was asking.

Isn't that what I said at the beginning? I wonder why it operates differently from normal night takeoffs and landings in the US and China, instead of questioning that this is not a night landing?

 

[HydraChess]

This is a wrong statement. According to the regulations of the Chinese Navy, the command of the aircraft carrier has always belonged to the Naval Headquarters instead of the three major fleets, which has nothing to do with whether it is a training ship or not.

Here is an article from 2019 in Chinamail : http://english.chinamil.com.cn/view/2019-04/25/content_9488581.htm

Role of aircraft carrier Liaoning shifts from training to combat: executive officer​

Originally designated a training and test ship, China's first aircraft carrier the Liaoning is starting to play a combat role following recent modifications and intensive training exercises, the vessel's executive officer revealed amid the celebrations of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Navy's 70th anniversary.

It might still belong to Navy Headquarter. However in 2013, the statement coming from China were : "It is a training ship and does not belong to any of 3 naval fleets of China".

 

[huanghong]

Here is an article from 2019 in Chinamail : http://english.chinamil.com.cn/view/2019-04/25/content_9488581.htm



It might still belong to Navy Headquarter. However in 2013, the statement coming from China were : "It is a training ship and does not belong to any of 3 naval fleets of China".

2013 may still be in the training state, because the live-fire exercise of the aircraft carrier battle group was in 2015. But this has nothing to do with the command of the aircraft carrier.
This is in line with the experience of the next cv-17, Shandong. Shandong was announced to perform a combat readiness mission after serving for one and a half years, which is basically consistent with the time of Liaoning.
That is, it is in IOC when it is in service, and it reaches FOC after 1 to 2 years of operation.

 

[HydraChess]

2013 may still be in the training state, because the live-fire exercise of the aircraft carrier battle group was in 2015

A training ship can still do live fire drill, though not suitable for combat role. China moved that carrier to combat role much later after a refit in 2018. Chinamail article confirms that.

That is, it is in IOC when it is in service, and it reaches FOC after 1 to 2 years of operation.

China mail article contradicts this. So does previous interviews by Mr Song. He insisted it to be a training ship and to develop tactics with carrier. BTW, the ship was commissioned and was being outfitted during 2013, though at that point NOT as a combat ship but as a training and tactics exploration testbed.

It was only in 2018 after a new stealthy command centre and other refits they saw it fit to move into a combat role.

 

[huanghong]

A training ship can still do live fire drill, though not suitable for combat role. China moved that carrier to combat role much later after a refit in 2018. Chinamail article confirms that.


China mail article contradicts this. So does previous interviews by Mr Song. He insisted it to be a training ship and to develop tactics with carrier. BTW, the ship was commissioned and was being outfitted during 2013, though at that point NOT as a combat ship but as a training and tactics exploration testbed.

It was only in 2018 after a new stealthy command centre and other refits they saw it fit to move into a combat role.

This just changed the purpose of the Liaoning, not that it became operational so late. As the first aircraft carrier, the Liaoning ship had to undertake the task of training pilots for the subsequent carrier. So-called training ships are used to train pilots and prepare standard training procedures later, not that they are not ready for combat capability.
An aircraft carrier and a battle group completed a live-fire exercise of air defense, anti-submarine and anti-ship, and it is difficult to say that it still lacks the ability to act as a combat ship

 

[HydraChess]

This just changed the purpose of the Liaoning, not that it became operational so late. As the first aircraft carrier, the Liaoning ship had to undertake the task of training pilots for the subsequent carrier. So-called training ships are used to train pilots and prepare standard training procedures later, not that they are not ready for combat capability.
An aircraft carrier and a battle group completed a live-fire exercise of air defense, anti-submarine and anti-ship, and it is difficult to say that it still lacks the ability to act as a combat ship

Here is what XO of the ship is saying :

"The Liaoning is shifting from a training and test ship to a combat ship. I believe this process is going faster and faster, and we will achieve our goal very soon," Lu said.

Source : http://english.chinamil.com.cn/view/2019-04/25/content_9488581.htm

So, for combat duties, the ship was not ready in the eyes of its XO at that time and they were working on SHIFTING that AFTER 2018.