INS Vikramaditya poised to meet latest deadline

[sancho]

Hindsight is everything @sancho! At the time the deal looked pretty good- cheap(ish) and it would be a good replacement to the ageing/aged VIRAAT and would serve the IN well for a few years until Indian built ACCs came into the fleet.

Only if we simply believed what the Russians told us, but we sent own „experts“ to evaluate the vessel and the posssible changes that must be made. It's a shame that they didn't saw how complicated this re-design will be.
The Viraat replacement was the aim, but as I said, it was operationally not needed since the benefit in war times is very limited in our threat perceptions.

POV is EVERYTHING Sancho, am I right??

IN has made its Operational DOCTRINE around atleast one CBG since 60s.

No matter what we buy "INSTEAD" of AC, how will one change the working Doctrine of an Armed force??

That depends on what basis this doctrine was made right? According to IAFs doctrine they must operate the helicopter and maritime attack fighter fleets and still 90% of us say that it doesn't make operational sense, so why should this be different?
Let's be honest, operating a carrier in IN for so long, without real blue water capabilities to project power and logistical support to greater distances the operational benefits are more than limited. For coastal defence a higher number of SSKs, or Frigats would be more useful, since there is hardly any capable threat from the Sea.
Even IF we had retired the Viraat by now, there would be anything different with INs doctrines or defence tactics. Which means, we could have easily waited for IAC 1 and developing real blue water navy capabilities and could have used the money for the Gorshkov in the meantime for more important modernisations.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@sancho how can you say the IN is "without real blue water capabilities"? And even if you beleive this I'm sure you'd agree the IN is building such a "true blue" capability and by 2020 the IN will be many times more Expedtionary and blue-water in nature.

 

[sancho]

@sancho how can you say the IN is "without real blue water capabilities"?

We just got our first nuclear sub and that mainly for training reasons, not to be part of a carrier battle group, we hardly have sufficient numbers of destroyers and frigats, to send them to longer distances with a CBG and still remain with a useful number of vessels for coastal defence. Same goes for logistical support. Without all these capability we can't project our power to the high seas or to far distances, which means that we don't have blue water capabilities yet.

And even if you beleive this I'm sure you'd agree the IN is building such a "true blue" capability and by 2020 the IN will be many times more Expedtionary and blue-water in nature.

That's what I said, we are building this capability now for the future and might be there by the time IAC 1 will be available, in the meantime INS Viraat would have been good enough, if needed at all.

 

[sancho]

Quick wiki search:

Blue-water navy

A blue-water navy is a maritime force capable of operating across the deep waters of open oceans.[1] A term used in the United Kingdom to describe such a force is a navy possessing maritime expeditionary capabilities.[2] While definitions of what actually constitutes such a force vary, there is a requirement for the ability to exercise sea control at wide ranges.

The Defense Security Service of the United States has defined the blue-water navy as, "a maritime force capable of sustained operation across the deep waters of open oceans. A blue-water navy allows a country to project power far from the home country and usually includes one or more aircraft carriers. Smaller blue-water navies are able to dispatch fewer vessels abroad for shorter periods of time.

Blue-water navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Green-water navy

Green-water navy is terminology created to describe a national naval force that is designed primarily to provide coastal defense and may be beginning to acquire the ability to sustain operations on the open ocean. It is a relatively new term, and has been created to better distinguish, and add nuance, between two long-standing descriptors: blue-water navy and brown-water navy...

Green-water navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[neehar]

We just got our first nuclear sub and that mainly for training reasons, not to be part of a carrier battle group, we hardly have sufficient numbers of destroyers and frigats, to send them to longer distances with a CBG and still remain with a useful number of vessels for coastal defence. Same goes for logistical support. Without all these capability we can't project our power to the high seas or to far distances, which means that we don't have blue water capabilities yet.



That's what I said, we are building this capability now for the future and might be there by the time IAC 1 will be available, in the meantime INS Viraat would have been good enough, if needed at all.

im sure by the end of this decade india would have a deadly naval force.but for the delay and costs i dont think there is any trouble with viki. everything were sorted out .it would make a fine ship.and we would be getting the next series of arihant subs with in 2-3 years from now..aridhaman is what they call is is already is in quality testing phase..it would be ready for platform trials by the end of this year..

 

[Jayanta]

Thats not gonna happen. Its a fear propaganda spread by some extremist leaders to get political and ideological mileage. For more than 65 years, we have lived in a democratic society. A society which respects secularism, democracy and over all the constitution. And these principles have sunk deep in our society. If there will be suffering one day, it will be the suffering of this nation as a whole and not of a community.

Tell this to someone living in Assam....I bet you will loose some teeth. Go through the census of 1950 and 2011 of states like Assam, WB, J&K, Kerala....

 

[joekrish]

@sancho sir, I am a novice on the subject and some of you here have given me a heart break.

 

[sancho]

im sure by the end of this decade india would have a deadly naval force.

Of course, that's also why I said that Vikramaditya will not be dead as stated earlier, but in a cost vs operational benefits comparison, the deal turns out to be very bad for us. No matter how good IN will be, the main threat for India are at our land borders, not in the coastal areas. The real game changer that is coming now won't be the new carriers, but INS Arihant, because it closes the deterrence gap that we had against China. Similarly, the biggest threat we pose to China with IN in mind, won't be our carriers, but the SSBNs and other subs with credible attack capabilities, because they are much harder to find and to destroy for them, then a carrier group. That's why I would have prefered Russian subs with Brahmos attack capability far more, than buying the Vikramaditya.

@sancho sir, I am a novice on the subject and some of you here have given me a heart break.

Why? It's just a discussion about cost, benefits and possible operational advantages of the carrier for us. When available, it will be of good use to offer Sea Control in the Arabian Sea or the Bay of Bengal for example, but that doesn't mean the money couldn't have been spend in a better way.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Quick wiki search:




Blue-water navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Green-water navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@sancho fair enough but this definition seems a little outdated or atleast its applications as no one could honestly say the UK RN is superior to the IN in reach and capabilities these days. The only arena the IN is seriously lacking in is subs.


Maybe it is a bit premature to be calling the IN a blue-water navy today but in 5-7 years time this title will be the IN's for sure.

 

[nomi007]

Since our coast guards are enough for your navy.

that's why bombay attacked occured
after years of delay
still engine problem in INS Vikramaditya russian really have fool customer

 

[Hope4btr]

Tell this to someone living in Assam....I bet you will loose some teeth. Go through the census of 1950 and 2011 of states like Assam, WB, J&K, Kerala....

And it hardly matters what judgement someone gives living in some distant part of the world. People who come here and live here, would know. I know exactly what I have written and its a fact. You do not know what happened after the Assam violence. You do not know what the real problems of West Bengal(I live nearby WB). You do not the ground realities of Kerela(I have worked there for years). For someone who reads newspapers and has a big mouth, I know exactly what I am saying. I know because I have been there. So save your statistics.

 

[INDIC]

that's why bombay attacked occured
after years of delay
still engine problem in INS Vikramaditya russian really have fool customer

Russians are reliable defence partner and our coast guard is better than your navy. Don't give example of terrorists.

 

[SamantK]

@sancho sir, I am a novice on the subject and some of you here have given me a heart break.

Oh that feeling when keeping the jingoism aside you hear the experts! I fully understand how you feel

 

[arp2041]

Quick wiki search:

Blue-water navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Green-water navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If Countries like India, China or Russia can't be called a Blue Water Navy, than they certainly aren't Green Water Navy also, given that Australian, Brazilian, Indonesian, etc. countries also have Green Water Capabilities, but there is no comparison b/w later & the former.

They are certainly falling somewhere in b/w - maybe a BLUISH-GREENISH water Navy

 

[Abingdonboy]

They are certainly falling somewhere in b/w - maybe a BLUISH-GREENISH water Navy

A transitional green-water navy maybe?