Initiative to buy 16 warplanes for Tk 25,000 crore

[mb444]

Where did you get this info from?

AESA radar on Gripen E can direct missiles at the maximum effective range of the Meteor no problems. Anyway Gripens can be fully networked with the Swedish Global Eye awacs.



Would you trust the UK to not lean towards India with Sunak as PM?
I would not.
Brexit UK is tilting away from EU and India is another large market that UK is interested in.

Again why would Indian care about 16 EFTs when they have 36 Rafales and are likely to purchase 36 more?

Western gear is for Myanmar and China is the supplier of choice for India. No idea when people got the idea that a small number of Western jets will be any deterrence against India from.

You want to really take care of India and get real deterrence till 2050-2060? Buy 2-3 dozens of J-35s when they are ready towards the latter part of this decade with Chinese domestic engine.

The two way data link between meteor and EFT/Raffles are more advanced than between meteor to grippen interface. Let me identify the article and share, there is a qualitative difference.

In war I would not trust anyone but would trust UK more than sweden.

Sunak wont be PM, he is a yes man only there because Sajid Javed had self respect. He can not carry the conservative party and the blip in his popularity went out with eat out to help out debacle.

Patel and sharma are non entities. But regardless I agree with you indians have greater say with UK establishment than BD. But i like to see it another way that only in UK does BD have any say whatsoever with a global power.

Sweden is a non entity they will be pushed to take indian side both by the western alliance and russia through indian connection. Sweden is barely a regional power, BD strategic alliances needs to be with global powers.

 

[Avicenna]

Short of the F-22, the Eurofighter is the premier air to air platform.

If you take a lesson from the Chinese-Thai exercise, it seems the Flanker was bested by the Gripen in the BVR realm while the opposite was true WVR.

PLAAF Senior Pilot Reveals Poor Performance in Joint Exercise With RTAF | AIN

A report details the performance of PLAAF aircraft in Falcon Strike 2015.

www.ainonline.com

Eurofighter may be superior to Gripen in that respect due to superior kinematics while having a better BVR capability again due to its superior kinematics.

Of course the issue is cost.

But plane for plane Eurofighter>Gripen.

The issue now is numbers and cost.

The two way data link between meteor and EFT/Raffles are more advanced than between meteor to grippen interface. Let me identify the article and share, there is a qualitative difference.

In war I would not trust anyone but would trust UK more than sweden.

Sunak wont be PM, he is a yes man only there because Sajid Javed had self respect. He can not carry the conservative party and the blip in his popularity went out with eat out to help out debacle.

Patel and sharma are non entities. But regardless I agree with you indians have greater say with UK establishment than BD. But i like to see it another way that only in UK does BD have any say whatsoever with a global power.

Sweden is a non entity they will be pushed to take indian side both by the western alliance and russia through indian connection. Sweden is barely a regional power, BD strategic alliances needs to be with global powers.

Also in the global realm politically UK>Sweden

This coming from a proponent of Gripen for BAF.

 

[UKBengali]

The two way data link between meteor and EFT/Raffles are more advanced than between meteor to grippen interface. Let me identify the article and share, there is a qualitative difference.

In war I would not trust anyone but would trust UK more than sweden.

Sunak wont be PM, he is a yes man only there because Sajid Javed had self respect. He can not carry the conservative party and the blip in his popularity went out with eat out to help out debacle.

Patel and sharma are non entities. But regardless I agree with you indians have greater say with UK establishment than BD. But i like to see it another way that only in UK does BD have any say whatsoever with a global power.

Sweden is a non entity they will be pushed to take indian side both by the western alliance and russia through indian connection. Sweden is barely a regional power, BD strategic alliances needs to be with global powers.

Let us agree to disagree about Sunak's chance of becoming PM of the UK. If he can become Chancellor then he can become PM as well, especially when someone like Boris Johnson managed to become PM when he is totally unsuitable for the job as this pandemic has shown.

The fact that Patel and Sharma are senior cabinet members does not make them "non entities" and they have influence as regards UK government policy. Indians are more influential in the UK than BD'shis than even their 3x greater numbers. BDshi's should not overestimate their tiny influence in the UK and it is likely to remain this way for many years to come.

As for Western gear, they are for Myanmar and not India. Why anyone thinks you would choose West over China to deter India is a mystery to me.

Again what use would 16 EFTs be against the huge IAF? Absolutely useless I would say.

Go Western for Myanmar and Chinese for India.

 

[mb444]

Short of the F-22, the Eurofighter is the premier air to air platform.

If you take a lesson from the Chinese-Thai exercise, it seems the Flanker was bested by the Gripen in the BVR realm while the opposite was true WVR.

PLAAF Senior Pilot Reveals Poor Performance in Joint Exercise With RTAF | AIN

A report details the performance of PLAAF aircraft in Falcon Strike 2015.

www.ainonline.com

Eurofighter may be superior to Gripen in that respect due to superior kinematics while having a better BVR capability again due to its superior kinematics.

Of course the issue is cost.

But plane for plane Eurofighter>Gripen.

The issue now is numbers and cost.


Also in the global realm politically UK>Sweden

This coming from a proponent of Gripen for BAF.

EFT is an air superiority fighter. to keep BD airspace free we need something that can stay up in the air longer, can survaile our airspace, had speed to get to where he need to and carry loads of weapons and EFT has been designed to do that.

Grippen carry less weapons, has less range, its designed to go up deliver its missiles and come down quickly refuel, reweapon and go up again. This is great but not what BAF needs cause we wont have the numbers to employ such a rotating strategy....

Our defence must come from deterring the enemy from misadventure in the first place, that was the purpose of EFT.... low number of jets able to threaten and fend off large number of Russian jets in europe.

Grippens doctrine was that sweden will be overwhelmed by russians but lets buy time by having numbers that slow the russian advance giving the western alliance time to come to Sweden assistance.

Grippen is a great choice for BD, but only in numbers.... we can not afford this.... thus again EFT only choice.... the latter cost more to run but it has range, weapons capacity, speed making it a better choice than grippen given our various contraints.

 

[mb444]

Let us agree to disagree about Sunak's chance of becoming PM of the UK. If he can become Chancellor then he can become PM as well, especially when someone like Boris Johnson managed to become PM when he is totally unsuitable for the job as this pandemic has shown.

The fact that Patel and Sharma are senior cabinet members does not make them "non entities" and they have influence as regards UK government policy. Indians are more influential in the UK than BD'shis than even their 3x greater numbers. BDshi's should not overestimate their tiny influence in the UK and it is likely to remain this way for many years to come.

As for Western gear, they are for Myanmar and not India. Why anyone thinks you would choose West over China to deter India is a mystery to me.

Again what use would 16 EFTs be against the huge IAF? Absolutely useless I would say.

Go Western for Myanmar and Chinese for India.

16 EFT in defensive position can counter many many times IAF assets. Only the raffle will see EFT at the same time as EFT sees it. Other russian IAF assets are toast before EFT in the similar way the rest of the BAF is toast against IAF. Also BAF will not face the entire IAF.

So yes only western jets can counter western jets. I do not know why you would think chinese jets are for IAF whilst western jets are for MAF only. In time of war BAF will fight with everything it has.

Now coming back to chinese jets. On paper they are great, they also have BVR better than Meteor or AMRAAM. This may be the case and we should get the J10c and the PL15 if the chinese allow it. However these are not battle tested and question remain why china continues to rely on russia for the high in their high-low mix to counter western jets against japan and taiwan.

The point is BD must maximise its lethality and how its enemies perceive it. Its whole arsenal will be employed in any war and west/east mix would do that for us against both our adversaries.

 

[Avicenna]

Eurofighter?

Gripen?

There is always the single seat fighter requirement that remains.

Common weapons such as Meteor coupled with Globaleye!

Make it happen BAF!!!!

 

[leonblack08]

You think UK would not take India's side against BD in case of conflict?

Here are some facts:

1. 3 senior cabinet ministers are of Indian heritage in the UK. The next UK Prime Minister could well be Rishi Sunak.
2. Indian companies are one of the largest foreign investors in the UK.
3. UK is seeking access to Indian economy which is 10 times as large as BD's.
4. 3 times as many Indians in the UK as BD'shis.


Much rather BD sources aircraft from Sweden that does not have much connection with either India or BD than buying from UK that can be influenced by Indians both at home and in India very easily.

And apart from engine, which requires one time clearance from USA at point of sale, the rest of the Gripen is all European and so after BD gets the Gripen the USA is completely out of the picture. Sweden even has a ready domestic AESA radar that can be put into Gripen very easily and so apart from missiles and engine, the rest of the aircraft is pretty much Swedish.

You are missing the point. India has a bigger expatriate population compared to Bangladesh no matter whatever Western country we talk about and certainly more people in influential positions. Be it the US, UK, or Canada. No one is disputing that.

In the unlikely event of a full-scale war between Bangladesh and India- UK's position will be neutral. Provided BD is not the aggressor. They have a historical and social connection with both countries, and with BAF having EFTs they will have an active interest in seeing a ceasefire. Very much comparable to the role Russia played in the Armenia-Azerbaijan war. They would want both parties to come to a ceasefire and put an end to the war as soon as possible and will take initiatives to initiate that. Sweden does not have the geopolitical influence to do anything of that sort. Instead, they are more likely to bend under pressure to stop supporting BAF in times of conflict.

Besides when compared to EFT and Rafale, Gripen has not yet proven its superiority. Saab invested heavily in PR to market their fighters over the years and there are thousands of articles praising Gripen being an excellent fighter. You will probably find more articles praising Gripen online than you would for EFT and Rafale. Sure they are far superior to Russian Sukhois, but is it really superior when it comes to EFT and Rafale? If that was the case, why haven't they seen more foreign sales and lose out to EFT and Rafale in key markets? Especially after the amount of positive press they receive. Since we can't put these fighters realistically one v one, we have to take this as a benchmark. Potential operators have tested and thoroughly examined the offerings, and as we have seen in key markets- Gripen lost out. Could be for either strategic or for technical reasons. Regardless- when we are talking about a country's spearhead fighter- EFT and Rafale are the preferred choices for many countries over Gripen at the moment.

 

[UKBengali]

You are missing the point. India has a bigger expatriate population compared to Bangladesh no matter whatever Western country we talk about and certainly more people in influential positions. Be it the US, UK, or Canada. No one is disputing that.

In the unlikely event of a full-scale war between Bangladesh and India- UK's position will be neutral. Provided BD is not the aggressor. They have a historical and social connection with both countries, and with BAF having EFTs they will have an active interest in seeing a ceasefire. Very much comparable to the role Russia played in the Armenia-Azerbaijan war. They would want both parties to come to a ceasefire and put an end to the war as soon as possible and will take initiatives to initiate that. Sweden does not have the geopolitical influence to do anything of that sort. Instead, they are more likely to bend under pressure to stop supporting BAF in times of conflict.

Besides when compared to EFT and Rafale, Gripen has not yet proven its superiority. Saab invested heavily in PR to market their fighters over the years and there are thousands of articles praising Gripen being an excellent fighter. You will probably find more articles praising Gripen online than you would for EFT and Rafale. Sure they are far superior to Russian Sukhois, but is it really superior when it comes to EFT and Rafale? If that was the case, why haven't they seen more foreign sales and lose out to EFT and Rafale in key markets? Especially after the amount of positive press they receive. Since we can't put these fighters realistically one v one, we have to take this as a benchmark. Potential operators have tested and thoroughly examined the offerings, and as we have seen in key markets- Gripen lost out. Could be for either strategic or for technical reasons. Regardless- when we are talking about a country's spearhead fighter- EFT and Rafale are the preferred choices for many countries over Gripen at the moment.

Let us take the politics and strategic considerations aside, how much would a package of just 16 Euro-fighters cost with the infrastructure, munitions and training?

I say around 4 billion US dollars if a deal is signed this year or next with deliveries from 2025 onwards, going by previous deals in the last 4-5 years.

How does BD afford even a single squadron within its budget?
If it somehow found the money and emptied the treasury for the rest of the decade, then is this money well spent bearing in mind it's geopolitical circumstances with two pretty nasty countries in the form of Myanmar and Hinduvta India next door?

EFT is a rich-man's plane and not for a poor BD. Gripen/F-16 are just about the only affordable Western fighters for a country with BD's economy.

 

[mb444]

Let us take the politics and strategic considerations aside, how much would a package of just 16 Euro-fighters cost with the infrastructure, munitions and training?

I say around 4 billion US dollars if a deal is signed this year or next with deliveries from 2025 onwards, going by previous deals in the last 4-5 years.

How does BD afford even a single squadron within its budget?
If it somehow found the money and emptied the treasury for the rest of the decade, then is this money well spent bearing in mind it's geopolitical circumstances with two pretty nasty countries in the form of Myanmar and Hinduvta India next door?

EFT is a rich-man's plane and not for a poor BD. Gripen/F-16 are just about the only affordable Western fighters for a country with BD's economy.

@UKBengali ... you were correct regarding grippens ability vis a vis maintaning two way datalink with meteor.

I misunderstood the article in question. Meteor was first operationalised in the Grippen in late 90s, raffle early 2000s and EFT in early 2010s. There were significant difference in the underlying datalink technologies in each iteration. The latest version of Grippen/raffell/EFT has the same software.

However the suite of software present in each of the jet is different as are their purpose and combat posture. In those terms EFT is an out and out air superiority fighter and in my opinion that is what we need.

Eurofighter?

Gripen?

View attachment 724558

There is always the single seat fighter requirement that remains.

Common weapons such as Meteor coupled with Globaleye!

Make it happen BAF!!!!

Would be amazing but probably hedge our bet with the chinese.... lower cost, better techlogical roadmap than the swedes and greater strategic alliance vis-a-vis india.

 

[UKBengali]

@UKBengali ... you were correct regarding grippens ability vis a vis maintaning two way datalink with meteor.

I misunderstood the article in question. Meteor was first operationalised in the Grippen in late 90s, raffle early 2000s and EFT in early 2010s. There were significant difference in the underlying datalink technologies in each iteration. The latest version of Grippen/raffell/EFT has the same software.

However the suite of software present in each of the jet is different as are their purpose and combat posture. In those terms EFT is an out and out air superiority fighter and in my opinion that is what we need.

I agree that the version of Eurofighter with the Mk 2 AESA radar that would be available to BD would be the best 4+ gen fighter by a fair margin for BD but the cost like I say is the issue.

It would even be quite a bit superior to Rafale that India has and significantly better than Gripen E in air-to-air, but it is extremely expensive to both buy and operate. Can a poor BD afford it? I say no if it wants to build at least some numbers of modern fighters this decade.

 

[The Ronin]

Looks like EFT is almost confirmed as it clearly outperforms Gripen although cost is the issue. So it's supporter should calm down and wait. There's still a chance for it in MMRCA competition as we will definitely need a single engine-cost effective fighter jet in good quantity.

Few things we may need to discuss:-

1. Article says BAF plans to buy those jets under G2G deal. EFT is manufactured under a consortium and AFAIK we will need four countries permission in this deal. So how will that happen in this case? Will there be any hiccup?
2. If we buy EFT there's a chance for us to get Storm Shadow/SCALP EG which will be HUGE boost. . I see it is exported to several countries including India besides the original four users. So why the export of this cruise missile isn't affected by the MTCR though it has 560 km range?

3. We are getting Kh-31A AShM for our Mig-29 but Marte ER has 30 km longer range than Kh-31A. Should we use both missiles or not? (If we get Storm Shadow/SCALP EG)

4. What's the point of getting EFT/Gripen if Meteor BVR will take time to be delivered? How long will it take?

@Indos @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @siegecrossbow

I also dont get you guys keep talking nice about China and want to buy J 10 while they have supported Myanmar regime many times, including during recent UN attempt to make some kind of resolution to Myanmar.

J-10 could be a good low cost option if we can't afford another single engine western MMRCA in large numbers. We already have infrastructures, MRO and training facility for Chinese fighter. So we can quickly absorb it. And China will definitely supply us against India. EFT is expensive so to build the fleet J-10 is the cheapest option. India, Myanmar both are hostile towards us but India will be our primary threat always as the largest neighbor with largest fleet.

Bay of Bengal is not sterile, US can use Andaman island to attack any logistic ships coming from Myanmar if full scale war happen as India will side to US.

Any way if China has cozy relation with Indonesia, it can use Makassar straits and go to Indian Ocean after passing Sunda straits without the need to pass Malacca Strait.

If India blockades Malacca, wouldn't that affect other countries? Can India really do that?

The article link I posted in Bengali. They say somewhere in the article that , "These planes are not only for war , but it's actually for mind game and strategic advantage against Myanmar and India " .

You should have asked them what kinda war, mind game and strategic advantage they see against Myanmar and India when both MAF and IAF has larger fighter fleet consisted of Su-30, Rafale, Mig-29 and JF-17 with BVRs. 16 fighters can't contribute to any mind game and strategic advantage, they only create deterrence. Maybe a technological edge over MAF but not against IAF. Only a decent combined fleet of Chinese-Western fighter jets can provide those advantages. We need at least 16-32 more EFT and 32 J-10/Gripen.

Because India's attitude isn't friendly. It has tendency to annex others land. Like they annexed a sovereign country named Hyderabad state with brute force .

I understand your but you need to calm down. This is not like old days and BD not that small, land-locked Hindu-Buddhist majority country without any diplomatic support and with small weak military force like Sikkim and Hyderabad. India helped BD in liberation war and has trade relation. So annexing Bangladesh is ain't gonna be that easy.

I think SAAB has permission to export the aircraft and doesn't need US permission. If you can't find a source i, will search later.

Earlier gripen variants used a volvo engine but it think it has been discontinued. I could be wrong

Even the Volvo engine was a licence copy of General Electric F404. Newer variants are powered by GE F414G.

I agree Gripens are much more suited for Bangladesh , however BAF rejected it since we asked for old Gripens and the Swedes wanted to give us new ones.

I thought it was the other way around. We wanted new Gripens and SAAB wanted to give us C/D variants. Another story was it Sweden didn't want to supply us the fighter because political instability. All the stories came from BD Military/Defseca. Here's the latest one. @Destranator wanna add something?

https://www.facebook.com/DefsecaBD/posts/287001492859361

Russian jets aren't suited for our climate

WHAT?!

I don't know if the Nanchang Q-5 Fantans are grounded and decommissioned already. Ugly li'l suckers...

Replaced by Yak-130 long ago. I heard BAF retired them too soon and they were loved by pilots for their performance in ground attack role.

 

[VikingRaider]

So annexing Bangladesh is ain't gonna be that easy.

I know this , and that's why I want to make it more difficult for them.

However during NRC and CAA Assamese CM already declared,"We have 15 lakh Bangladeshi and Bangladesh is our friendly country , and I hope they will take their citizens back" .

They will create another Rohingya type crisis.

That mean they technically can annex Bangladeshi land by sending their own Muslim population to Bangladesh by labelling them as so called illegal Bangladeshi.

We have small land and already have 170 millions and we can't afford taking any more refugees, as already 1 millions of Rohingyas are here .

People of Bangladesh may again try to compel govt to take refugee because of their absurd Ummah loving mentality; specially where the paid Mullahs are very much active in Bangladesh to agitate common people. These common people ( idiots ) have no idea that accepting Muslim refugees mean , simply losing our own land to them. These idiots believe that since we are Muslims so their responsibilities is part of Iman , so if we give shelter to other Muslims, it's part of faith. They have no brain to realize that , such cheap theory only serve enemy purpose.

I don't think Assamese CM said it only as rhetoric , but if they will be given slight chance , they will push their citizen to our land. Indian politicians understand the cheap sentiment of lots of Bangladeshis.

So if India want to create any troubles ( including another refugee issue , we have to engage in a full fledge battle.

Maybe 16 EFT isn't enough , but I hope we will develop our own aircraft in future, so we can keep enemies at bay more efficiently.

 

[leonblack08]

Let us take the politics and strategic considerations aside, how much would a package of just 16 Euro-fighters cost with the infrastructure, munitions and training?

I say around 4 billion US dollars if a deal is signed this year or next with deliveries from 2025 onwards, going by previous deals in the last 4-5 years.

How does BD afford even a single squadron within its budget?
If it somehow found the money and emptied the treasury for the rest of the decade, then is this money well spent bearing in mind it's geopolitical circumstances with two pretty nasty countries in the form of Myanmar and Hinduvta India next door?

EFT is a rich-man's plane and not for a poor BD. Gripen/F-16 are just about the only affordable Western fighters for a country with BD's economy.

I certainly do agree with you that Gripen and F-16s are ideal for Bangladesh in terms of acquisition and maintenance costs in the long run.

But the reality is complicated, and we do need to take these political and strategic factors into consideration. And hence BAF has likely gone for EFT. We are still speculating at this point. I sure hope someone in MoD and BAF crunched the numbers required to maintain an EFT squadron, and are not seeing a shortfall.

 

[Indos]

1. Article says BAF plans to buy those jets under G2G deal. EFT is manufactured under a consortium and AFAIK we will need four countries permission in this deal. So how will that happen in this case? Will there be any hiccup?

4. What's the point of getting EFT/Gripen if Meteor BVR will take time to be delivered? How long will it take?

@Indos @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @siegecrossbow

Yup buying EFTT will be more complex than buying Gripen.

Meteor BVR deliverywill take time, every missile like AMRAMM also takes years to come like what has been experience by Indonesia. I dont know how long since Indonesia hasnt used Meteor yet

If India blockades Malacca, wouldn't that affect other countries? Can India really do that?

No, India cannot do that, what they can do is to target China cargo ships, similar how Israel and Iran ships now get attacked

 

[SpaceMan18]

I know this , and that's why I want to make it more difficult for them.

However during NRC and CAA Assamese CM already declared,"We have 15 lakh Bangladeshi and Bangladesh is our friendly country , and I hope they will take their citizens back" .

They will create another Rohingya type crisis.

That mean they technically can annex Bangladeshi land by sending their own Muslim population to Bangladesh by labelling them as so called illegal Bangladeshi.

We have small land and already have 170 millions and we can't afford taking any more refugees, as already 1 millions of Rohingyas are here .

People of Bangladesh may again try to compel govt to take refugee because of their absurd Ummah loving mentality; specially where the paid Mullahs are very much active in Bangladesh to agitate common people. These common people ( idiots ) have no idea that accepting Muslim refugees mean , simply losing our own land to them. These idiots believe that since we are Muslims so their responsibilities is part of Iman , so if we give shelter to other Muslims, it's part of faith. They have no brain to realize that , such cheap theory only serve enemy purpose.

I don't think Assamese CM said it only as rhetoric , but if they will be given slight chance , they will push their citizen to our land. Indian politicians understand the cheap sentiment of lots of Bangladeshis.

So if India want to create any troubles ( including another refugee issue , we have to engage in a full fledge battle.

Maybe 16 EFT isn't enough , but I hope we will develop our own aircraft in future, so we can keep enemies at bay more efficiently.

Well we better get a great Navy too also , the last thing we want is India putting a naval blockade.


Also aren't we going to get J-10Cs to replace our F-7s ?