INFORMAL DISCUSSION WITH IAF PERSONNEL ABOUT LCA AND AMCA

[dbc]

That doesn't make any sense! Sandy is talking about the initial production rate, while the top rate according to HAL is 16 per year and as they stated, the aim is to produce 188 in 12 years.

There is a possible caveat you missed both in sandy's post and HAL's official statement on the subject. I believe both allude to a possible increase if the IAF order increases beyond the 188 that is currently planned. I may have misunderstood both, but the question remains valid, will this aircraft remain operationally relevant when the last LCA rolls off the production line in 2025 or later @16 per year?

 

[Kloitra]

There is a possible caveat you missed both in sandy's post and HAL's official statement on the subject. I believe both allude to a possible increase if the IAF order increases beyond the 188 that is currently planned. I may have misunderstood both, but the question remains valid, will this aircraft remain operationally relevant when the last LCA rolls off the production line in 2025 or later @16 per year?

Operational relevance for 2-3 decades is what delayed its induction till now. Given that they are ready for induction now, may imply a hope that one of our neighbors would not acquire enough 5/4++ gen to make it obsolete.

 

[MilSpec]

There is a possible caveat you missed both in sandy's post and HAL's official statement on the subject. I believe both allude to a possible increase if the IAF order increases beyond the 188 that is currently planned. I may have misunderstood both, but the question remains valid, will this aircraft remain operationally relevant when the last LCA rolls off the production line in 2025 or later @16 per year?

Will the aircraft remain relevant, yes, if not as a frontline fighter surely as a area defence fighter and combat trainer.



Ideally IAF should have frozen the design requirements, and studied the required quantity, three tranches of LCA mk2 with each (assume: weighing 150 units) should have been ordered by the IAF.

Once the design was frozen, HAL production prototypes need to clear the FOC. IAF should have attached a huge penalty for delay from HAL in delivery schedule for the LCA mk2.

HAL should and would have placed additional lines for Mk2 in Nasik or koraput division.

Adequate production rate could have been achieved to deliver the entire project within 8-10 years.

 

[Anony]

There is a possible caveat you missed both in sandy's post and HAL's official statement on the subject. I believe both allude to a possible increase if the IAF order increases beyond the 188 that is currently planned. I may have misunderstood both, but the question remains valid, will this aircraft remain operationally relevant when the last LCA rolls off the production line in 2025 or later @16 per year?

Yes LCA will remain operational and it's requirement will not get diminish. To understand why you need to look at it from India's defence requirement and threat perception point of view. For India, unfortunately the adversaries are their immediate neighbours. PAF are inducting JF-17 in large number which can't be termed as true 4th gen fighter even. China has inducted around 200 J-10A (4th gen) and will also induct the same amount of J-10B (4.5 gen) in future. So LCA mk2 (4.5 gen) which will start rolling out from 2018 and though the last fighter will roll out in 2028 has major role to play atleast till 2040 in case of China and 2050 in case of Pakistan.

In addition to this, because airbases of India - Pakistan or India - China are close to their border, the ground radars detect the plane at the time of their takeoff. I know this because my relatives are in IAF. We can track every fighters and civilian planes of Pakistan as soon as they takeoff sitting way inside our land.

 

[BlueDot_in_Space]

Since you are so intelligent, equipped with the high quality, high IQ 'Chinese' brain, may you answer an insignificant question?

What role do turbine blades have in a solid fueled ballistic missile?

Chinese engineering!!

 

[Speeder 2]

Since you are so intelligent, equipped with the high quality, high IQ 'Chinese' brain, may you answer an insignificant question?

What role do turbine blades have in a solid fueled ballistic missile?

with high quality, high IQ Chinese brain I'll spare you 1 or 2 cents on this with pleasure:

do you really fantasise Agni series, and "Indian" space rockets for that matter, flying on their own without super hard and super high tempreture alloys, not necesarrily called blades per se, made by Russia's 75,000-ton-grinding machine and Russian laser gyro guidence system inside?

perhaps the work of Indian assembly line workers(the ones you call DRDO and HAL) is sth entirely out of this world without proper understanding of the translated Russian instruction manual book?

so, apart from the surface paint, what DRDO and HAL really need to understand, at least give a try, is that there are indeed sth advanced inside those rocket shells, in other words, they are not empty after all.

Chinese engineering!!

correct. i'm glad it is broadening your horizon.

btw it's also called engineering of human beings during 20th and 21st century on advanced engines used in ships, planes and space rockets for instance.

how does Indian engineering look like in comparison? still using spears and scissors?

 

[sancho]

There is a possible caveat you missed both in sandy's post and HAL's official statement on the subject.

Really?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-493.html#post4150608

I think you missed that such production lines starts slow and will be increased every year and 8 is the expected starting rate.

will this aircraft remain operationally relevant when the last LCA rolls off the production line in 2025 or later @16 per year?

Just as much as the F18SHs, Rafales, EFs, or Gripen E/F that are under production at the same time, since that depends on future upgrades. For Indian forces it had no main operational relevance anyway, since it's only an option at the low end, with cost-effectivity in mind, besides to set up an indigenous industry.

 

[Kloitra]

with high quality, high IQ Chinese brain I'll spare you 1 or 2 cents on this with pleasure:

do you really fantasise Agni series, and "Indian" space rockets for that matter, flying on their own without super hard and super high tempreture alloys, not necesarrily called blades per se, made by Russia's 75,000-ton-grinding machine and Russian laser gyro guidence system inside?

perhaps the work of Indian assembly line workers(the ones you call DRDO and HAL) is sth entirely out of this world without proper understanding of the translated Russian instruction manual book?

so, apart from the surface paint, what DRDO and HAL really need to understand, at least give a try, is that there are indeed sth advanced inside those rocket shells, in other words, they are not empty after all.

From turbine blades to RLG.
Since that heavy press is still under construction, are you claiming that all Chinese 'indigenous' development, from planes to missiles, were built on imported alloys? Or you do not know that certain alloys can be built with forges with smaller capacities?

India has enough forge/press capacity to develop/manufacture required alloys. It is true that we are behind and heavier presses do give an advantage, but that doesn't force us to import alloys for such critical components.

correct. i'm glad it is broadening your horizon.

btw it's also called engineering of human beings during 20th and 21st century on advanced engines used in ships, planes and space rockets for instance.

how does Indian engineering look like in comparison? still using spears and scissors?

Ah yes, advanced engines, like the ones used in JF-17. Incredibly advanced, only Chinese engineers/scientists equipped with high IQ Chinese brain can indigenously develop them.

 

[MilSpec]

At 44 days for one LCA as stated by sandy you're looking at a production rate of 8 LCA's per year, 25 years to produce 200 LCA's. At 48 LCA's per year or one per week the IAF and Indian Navy will receive all 180 to 200 LCA's in 5 years or less.

Do you believe the LCA will be operationally relevant for Indian forces 25 years from now? Remember, the last LCA that rolls off the production line in 2038 will remain in service for at least 10 years.

Sorry about my articulation, when I said 44 days from order book to delivery, it doesn't necessarily mean 1 aircraft in 44 days, it means each line has a work flow cycle time of 44 days, in the ideal world, it could mean 44 planes in 45 days, realistically speaking even with 4 production lines you could see 15-18 aircrafts a year!
Reducing the takt time for production directly translates into reduction of costs, reduction from 44 days to 22 could mean reduction in cost of production by almost 25-40%

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

with high quality, high IQ Chinese brain I'll spare you 1 or 2 cents on this with pleasure:

do you really fantasise Agni series, and "Indian" space rockets for that matter, flying on their own without super hard and super high tempreture alloys, not necesarrily called blades per se, made by Russia's 75,000-ton-grinding machine and Russian laser gyro guidence system inside?

perhaps the work of Indian assembly line workers(the ones you call DRDO and HAL) is sth entirely out of this world without proper understanding of the translated Russian instruction manual book?

so, apart from the surface paint, what DRDO and HAL really need to understand, at least give a try, is that there are indeed sth advanced inside those rocket shells, in other words, they are not empty after all.

correct. i'm glad it is broadening your horizon.

btw it's also called engineering of human beings during 20th and 21st century on advanced engines used in ships, planes and space rockets for instance.

how does Indian engineering look like in comparison? still using spears and scissors?

Typical Chines HIgh IQ , You didnt able to reply my last post .

A) America tell you how to put Rivets /joints Rockets for this US company was filed also , when Chinese rockets starts felling from SKY, USA told you how to joint rockets with nuts n bold.

B) india Design AC Ships etc and Chinese not able to Copy AC ship till now forget about Designing.

C) Ask Russia to design Attack helicopter and then called it Chinese design , what get liars Chinese are and proud of lying.

D) ask you Govt , how many Russian components your rockets etc carrying?

E) when russia stop support then yours WS10 and WS13 engines failed.

F) Copy someone else plane dosen't make you good , thats why you always remain a Gen behind because you keep and your adversary keep going ahead .

 

[Dillinger]

@S-DUCT you had posted pictures of a RCS test facility of ours right, can you post it again?

 

[S-DUCT]

@S-DUCT you had posted pictures of a RCS test facility of ours right, can you post it again?

Sure.

 

[Dillinger]

Sure.

So this is for scale models, any chance we have plans in motion for up-scaling these test facilities to measure real air-crafts? The facilities being used by the US to do the same- look just the same, same structure, same tech- they're just bigger.

 

[S-DUCT]

So this is for scale models, any chance we have plans in motion for up-scaling these test facilities to measure real air-crafts? The facilities being used by the US to do the same- look just the same, same structure, same tech- they're just bigger.

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Chandipur to Chitradurga! DRDO's new test range in Karnataka on track; 2nd facility after ITR near Balasore
IMO,full scale radar range testing facility is being built at Chitradurga, and/or Hyderabad, where it was announced will hold a new range for EW.

F-35 in Radar range facility

Anechoic chambers are cropping like weeds in all over the world.Even car and telephone industry use this chambers for electronic measurement.Full scale facilities are being built all across the countryexternal RCS measuring facility and may be that too might come from LM/Boieng free as part of offsets.

 

[Dillinger]

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Chandipur to Chitradurga! DRDO's new test range in Karnataka on track; 2nd facility after ITR near Balasore
IMO,full scale radar range testing facility is being built at Chitradurga, and/or Hyderabad, where it was announced will hold a new range for EW.

Anechoic chambers are cropping like weeds in all over the world.Even car and telephone industry use this chambers for electronic measurement.Full scale facilities are being built all across the countryexternal RCS measuring facility and may be that too might come from LM/Boieng free as part of offsets.

We need to setup a full scale anechoic chamber which can be used to measure a proper air craft, we've built one for scale models so it should not be difficult at all to build this one. We need such critical test facilities before we actually get into the manufacturing phase of the AMCA- we'll even need it for the AURA. Otherwise we may end up with a test article with significant flaws. On the other hand ITO coating of the canopy is a heartening development. Still as production and manufacturing goes- there is so much yet to be gleaned- if we don't set up these test facilities then we'll be back to square one. I am still hoping that we'll settle for a proven engine for the AMCA or rather keep it de-linked from the AMCA project- so that the AMCA is compatible with a proven engine from the start while the Kaveri is designed in accordance with the AMCA- if its successful then cool- if not we have a contingency plan. That is far more safer than to have to redesign the whole plane around a foreign engine because the Kaveri didn't work properly.