INFORMAL DISCUSSION WITH IAF PERSONNEL ABOUT LCA AND AMCA

[Lord Of Gondor]

That is not what I've been hearing, if you know different then please provide details.

IIRC,he used to work at HAL Nasik division(Where the MKI's are produced, currently).
And I think that he is the one that is in a better position to answer about HAL as a whole and MKI's at Nasik in particular.

 

[Invincible INDIAN]

Few days ago I had a chat with my brother-in-law who is in the navigation & control department of Sukhoi in IAF. I am listing the questions I asked him and his reply on those.

Is LCA really good aircraft? Can it match the capability of other fighters of IAF?

It's a good craft but it still need to develop itself to match the frontline fighters of IAF.

Where exactly it lacks?

It's not where Vikash, but total combat capability. And you can't compare LCA and Sukhoi, they will be performing completely different role. Now what I mean is, the swiftness with which Sukhoi can perform it's role, LCA is still some distance away to gain the ability to perform it's role accordingly.

Why not? What are the major shortcomings of LCA? Is it radar not good enough?

Laughs and said. Not shortcomings but swiftness. It still lags behind the combat standard of IAF.

Mention atleast 2-3 points.It will help me to have a clear understanding.

Ok I tell you one. In real time combat, point defence fighter are generally flown behind the strike fighter. In simple words these are most of the time used as surprise element. It houses a good radar but it need to fly fast and also need to perform several clearer & cleaner maneuvers to achieve a kill. Many a times it need to do the catching task as well and there are many more.

Do you mean higher speed?

No.I mean higher acceleration. It's take time to reach the desired speed.Not quite suitable for catching role in case the adversary aircraft is very close to the base or moving towards it's target and it need to intercept from behind.

How do you compare it with Jf-17?

Look I don't know much about Jf-17 and IAF is no longer worried about the capability of PAF fighters. These days we are not building our capability based on threat perception from Pakistan but from China. In northern borders it is difficult to track fighters specially when they fly low. So we need a quick reaction system.

Why don't IAF induct few squadrons of Tejas while it matures something similar to what PLAAF do?

IAF believe in quality over quantity. To tell you, IAF is short of close to 200 fighters what it really should have. But we know our quality is good enough to overcome that gap.So instead of filling the gap, IAF will wait for the quality to arrive or mature.

So you believe LCA mk2 will match the quality standards and requirement of IAF?

I think so. Tejas is quite a mature platform other than the shortcomings I just mention. I believe those will get solve in the subsequent development. But it will again depend, if it arrives on time,because delay may change the threat perception and thus requirement of IAF.

Don't you think the ever changing requirement of IAF is the main reason for the delay of Tejas?

It could be one but the only reason.And you need to understand there is no joy in inducting a fighter which we know will become obsolete within a decade. Rather we want platform which we can use for 2-3 decades. There were certain delays which could have been avoided and the concerned persons are working in the field so as not to repeat the same mistake in future developments.

So fighters can also be updated to the current gen standard.

This is a complete misconception. You can surely make few changes but not all. Engine of BMW fitted in Hyundai will not make it a BMW.(He owns Hyundai City)Updating a fighter can be understood as "servicing your car to increase the longevity of it's engine and other parts.Yes in addition to that one can make certain changes in the code of the platform so as to make it carry newer developed weapons.

I heard that LCA mk1 will only be used for training and not combat.Is it true?

I really don't know. But I wanna tell you that whenever a new fighter is inducted, it is not used in the combat thereafter. Pilots of IAF need to have a complete understanding of the fighter and it's ability. And then we need to develop strategies and few more things are there. These thing take time. So initially it will be used for training only. Whether it will be used in combat in future or not will be a diplomatic call based on the confidence of pilots about the platform.

You have been talking about point defence but don't you think with the fifth gen stealth technology, the importance of dogfight and point defence will fall?

1 vs 1 close combat is one of the most important ability and it will never become obsolete. Specially for the country whose adversaries are their neighbours, this is one of the important capability of a fighter as well as the pilot. These situation may become less relevant when adversaries are distant apart say Russia and USA but not in the case of India.

So what are your takes on the FGFA which India is going to induct in future?

I don't have enough knowledge on this to share. Only few top officials of IAF has the complete idea.

And AMCA?

Not much either. It is still a baby whose complete dressing style has not been decided yet.

But what about the model they share with us during Aero India?

I haven't seen the model but only in pictures. Only thing I can inform you on this is that, it is very ambitious project of India. IAF and research agencies are working together to make it a success. There are many critical technologies which India has to build from scratch.

Which is the most critical or most difficult technology that India need to overcome?

Laughs again. There are a few. But accordingly to me it's engine. I term engine because India still has no significant expertise in developing fighter engine. And developing a fifth gen fighter engine is completely a new and harder challenge. Take it this way, that the structure of your fighter is very good but your engine is something like the one fitted on Sukhoi. The whole concept of stealth will go away for a toss.

Experience gain from FGFA project will help?

Definitely. But take it this way that we will not be using that engine on our fighters.

Small Correction:

Its Honda City not Hyundai City

 

[dbc]

what kind of details?

Anything you are willing and able to share about HAL's capability. For instance, does HAL own and operate a Contour Tape Laying Machine?

 

[Rajesh_Singh1984]

Nice................. most of the points I agree...

 

[dbc]

Always a pleasure reading your posts, madam - Hows the little one doing ?

Thank you Armstrong, we are all doing well.

A question, if I may : Using stand-off missiles like the Anti-Radiation Missiles or even Cruise Missile, both with extended ranges in today's arsenal - Will that not diminish the possibility of fighter-to-fighter engagement in a penetration attack significantly enough that its payload & perhaps RCS more than agility or any of the other much vaunted attributes of a light agile platform, that would be the deciding factor ?

Which is to say, in the context of Pakistan & India, most of our Forward Operating Basis are in close proximity to the border areas & a stand-off missile or a volley of such fired at predestined targets even from within our own airspace be enough to significantly compromise the offensive or defensive capabilities of whatever the adversary have ! Wouldn't that relegate the LCA & by extension the JF-17 as little more than workhorses with their prime utility being little more than Continued Air Patrols whilst its the Rafaels, the Block 52s & surely the MKIs being the definitive element in any prospected engagement ?

I do apologize if it comes across as absolute nonsense for I'm an Finance & Accounting student, but this is a question about the relevancy of such light-multi role platform that has often perturbed me !

Much obliged, as always !

We're not there yet, the reliability of sensors and the on-board intelligence needed to reject a number of seduction, distraction techniques and as often is the case mother nature is not yet fully developed. We all heard about heated tank shaped decoys that fooled the pilot and their expensive guided munitions during the Serbian war. Our European friends were similarly frustrated as recently as the Libya campaign. An expensive air lunched laser guided munition missed its target an MBRL (Multiple Barrel Rocket Launcher) because the rocket launcher kicked up so much smoke and sand the laser could not properly designate the target. Did you know in Iraq pilots did not use IR guided munitions during dusk and dawn because the reliability of the seeker deteriorated during that time of the day? As for anti-radiation missiles these can also be made to go dumb and in some cases deceived by a clever adversary.

Also remember, once air supremacy is achieved forces often revert to good old fashioned cheap iron bombs and these still need a skilled pilot and an agile aircraft to deliver.

 

[OrionHunter]

Engine of BMW fitted in Hyundai will not make it a BMW. (He owns Hyundai City)

Owns a 'Hyundai City'? Is that a 5th generation hybrid stealth vehicle produced jointly by Honda and Hyundai?

Ok, you mean Honda City! (My sarcasm has crossed all bounds! Jeeeez! )

 

[MilSpec]

Anything you are willing and able to share about HAL's capability. For instance, does HAL own and operate a Contour Tape Laying Machine?

State of the art autoclave and programmable temperature /pressure gradient ovens.

Tricept CMM inspection rigs,

CNC machining centers, DMG, MCV OKK, Nakamura Tome, Hitachi etc.

KTM Al profiler, largest bed in Asia,

KTM steel profilers

CNC compex (FDN 11) Nasik division (Largest and most sophisticated CNC unit in Asia)

Static and Dynamic iron bird test facilities, with DAQ architecture capable 40dt pt/sec (5 years ago) 1600 channel capability!!!

CNC prepreg cutting m/c's

Programmable resin transfer molding machine.

Now as far as capability is concerned I have can tell you that fatigue strength of the uni-axial pre-impregnated CF facesheets developed and tested by HAL bangalore division might surprise the aviation giants around the world. Tension-tension and tension compression tests yielded magnificent results, modes of failure on test coupons were text book version. I for one am very proud of the progress made in the composites. The avenue where there is still a significant margin for development is Manufacturing of master molds, When I was working for HAL, creating master mold was significant issue, hopefully by now the situation must have improved.


As far as production of LCA is concerned, i dont see any key technology being brought in by dassault that if required HAL couldn't have sourced from 3M, or Boeing for that matter!!! (I am assuming we are not discussing avionics)

 

[Markus]

State of the art autoclave and programmable temperature /pressure gradient ovens.

Tricept CMM inspection rigs,

CNC machining centers, DMG, MCV OKK, Nakamura Tome, Hitachi etc.

KTM Al profiler, largest bed in Asia,

KTM steel profilers

CNC compex (FDN 11) Nasik division (Largest and most sophisticated CNC unit in Asia)

Static and Dynamic iron bird test facilities, with DAQ architecture capable 40dt pt/sec (5 years ago) 1600 channel capability!!!

CNC prepreg cutting m/c's

Programmable resin transfer molding machine.

Now as far as capability is concerned I have can tell you that fatigue strength of the uni-axial pre-impregnated CF facesheets developed and tested by HAL bangalore division might surprise the aviation giants around the world. Tension-tension and tension compression tests yielded magnificent results, modes of failure on test coupons were text book version. I for one am very proud of the progress made in the composites. The avenue where there is still a significant margin for development is Manufacturing of master molds, When I was working for HAL, creating master mold was significant issue, hopefully by now the situation must have improved.

If the above info is publicly available and you just doing copy-paste then alright.

If this is something that yo are privy too but not openly available, I suggest you exercise caution while giving it out.

 

[MilSpec]

If the above info is publicly available and you just doing copy-paste then alright.

If this is something that yo are privy too but not openly available, I suggest you exercise caution while giving it out.

Numbers are classified, above is common data, nothing sensitive!

 

[Markus]

Numbers are classified, above is common data, nothing sensitive!

Okays..........

 

[sancho]

@sancho Does someone has any idea of the specification of PAKFA engine under development?

You mean lenght, width...? No, but should be similar to the 117S engines of the Flanker series.

Btw, very interesting "interview", thanks for sharing!

Especially these parts:

...IAF is no longer worried about the capability of PAF fighters. These days we are not building our capability based on threat perception from Pakistan but from China. In northern borders it is difficult to track fighters specially when they fly low. So we need a quick reaction system...

...No.I mean higher acceleration. It's take time to reach the desired speed...

...But I wanna tell you that whenever a new fighter is inducted, it is not used in the combat thereafter. Pilots of IAF need to have a complete understanding of the fighter and it's ability. And then we need to develop strategies and few more things are there. These thing take time...

Which once again confirms the change of threat perception and why we need Rafale next to MKIs in the north / eastern sectors.
Which seems to confirm the problems about drag or TWR of LCA.
Which should finally make everybody understand why IAF go for even an expensive Mirage 2000 upgrade, than replacing them with a new, aircraft without any experience.

Btw, if you talk to him once again, can you try to find more about the acceleration issue, if it is caused mainly by the overweight of LCA, or if drag is a major issue too? If he has any knowledge about the status of the indigenous puls doppler rada? And since he is in a department related to Sukhoi in IAF, what in his point of view the most important upgrades of the MKI might be?

 

[sancho]

So LCA MK1 is a jet for training purpose, you forget to ask the condition of MK2. What about the updation to super MkI?

Sadly no, although I would have prefered it. The first 2 squads will have combat capability and will have only vey few twin seater versions for training. However, the main point of these squads is, to gain experience of the fighter, to find out the most effective ways to operate it in IAF and to develop tactics around it.

 

[S-DUCT]

@sancho Does someone has any idea of the specification of PAKFA engine under development?

All these info are compiled from Pak-Fa News Thread part 22 - Page 17 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums
PAK-FA engine under development(type-30) would have
1)variable GT cycle for increasing efficiency(Normal GT use Brayton's cycle).
2)Instead of super-alloy GT blades will be made up of composites and polymer.
3)5 HPC and 1HPT stage (117S has 9HPC and 2 HPT stages) it will reduce a lot of weight and length of new engine.

 

[India defense]

Thanks a lot for so informative interview......

 

[AHAM BRIHMASMI]

So LCA MK1 is a jet for training purpose, you forget to ask the condition of MK2. What about the updation to super MkI?

super mki is a huge huge plane, it will never get obsolete, it will perform all the rolls mentioned in the books, it will fight 100 other planes at a time, simply because iaf corrupt officials will get their cut in import, as for as our nation and its indigenous capability is concerned, to hell with it, who has time to think ??