Infiltration bid foiled, five militants killed in J&K

[dabong1]

End the source of the proxy war or removing the capability to wage one,

Sounds good......but how you going to that?

this is not an idealogical, religious war neither is it for the locals or their interests, this is geopolitical and an extension of the hostilities that we face from our enemies since their creation, so the question is - how does one win a war?

Rather then base everything on winning a war how about settling all outstanding issues with its neighbours.

 

[illusion8]

We can't say what they would have done, had they been in our predicament,, because none of them have been in our predicament. If I were to hazard a guess, they would have done exactly what we are doing. If any of these countries had a neighbor that was a significant military power, and there were jehadi groups training there hidden from public eye, what would those countries do? Wait for them to reach the border, and turkey shoot them.

Of all those countries you mentioned, only Russia has a remotely similar problem, with Chechen seperatists. Those chechens don't even have the backing of a strong, large nation like Pakistan, and Russia can go in there any time she wants, and has done so several times. And yet, those Chechen rebel terrorists are still alive and kicking, and have carried out spectacular terror attacks like the beslan school siege or the Moscow theater siege. So it seems that Russia is even less clueless about how to put them down, given that they can ride into the rebels' territories any time they want.

And Israel? Its neighbours are not as powerful relatively as Pakistan is, and yet has it been able to eliminate hizbollah or hamas or the N other terror groups? No, just like us, the Israelis too have built a wall on the borders, and eliminate anybody trying to sneak in. And today, look at where Israel is, and look at where countries that supported terrorists are - all of them battling for their own survival.

All in all India has done marvelously on countering state sponsored terrorism, given the fact that state that sponsors terrorism against India is large and powerful. Not an inch of land has been given away, and every terrorist who tries to infiltrate is issued a one way ticket to hell.

This discussion isn't going anywhere - you are happy with the results - the difference is I am glad but not happy, I would rather approach the problem at its core rather than take care of its after effects (though taking care of that is also important till the real solution comes into play), I don't see much pro activity in ridding ourselves of terrorists now and in the future in a decisive manner, As for solutions I may have drastic ideas for it and this wouldn't be the right place to express them.

 

[karan.1970]

Yeah sure, i'll surely post the brief once it gets approved by the MOD and the president -

The point is what would have China, Russia, Israel, US, UK etc have done if they were in our predicament. I don't claim that we are them - but then the question is why aren't we them, I don't claim that the solution is a simple one, it's not a step 1-2-3, it probably must be a numerous step method.

Dude.. In monsoons, you do not go out looking for colonies of mosquitoes all over your city to destroy them. You destroy the ones in your house (COIN) , put All Out in your rooms (Strong Police force & NIA) and at times, put a mosquito repellent gel (Citizen awareness).

 

[janon]

Rather then base everything on winning a war how about settling all outstanding issues with its neighbours.

That presupposes that the neighbor is really interested in settling the issues.

As long as our neighbor covets our territory, we have to maintain eternal vigilance. For India, it is not about winning a war any more. She is securely in a position where the neighbor will not dare to wage an open war against her, ever. It is simply about keeping out unwanted terrorist scum, and as the photos show, we are doing a fantastic job of that.

As long as our neighbours are paying a bigger price due to their dirty games, we have nothing to complain about. Ensuring that is the job of our professional armed forces, since we don't outsource national security to rag tag mujahideens.

This discussion isn't going anywhere - you are happy with the results - the difference is I am glad but not happy, I would rather approach the problem at its core rather than take care of its after effects (though taking care of that is also important till the real solution comes into play), I don't see much pro activity in ridding ourselves of terrorists now and in the future in a decisive manner, As for solutions I may have drastic ideas for it and this wouldn't be the right place to express them.

Well, as long as you cannot suggest a better solution, India will have to continue doing what we are doing. I'm not saying it's an ideal solution, but a better one has not been discovered yet. Pro-active, decisive etc are nice words - but unless you know specifically what proactive or decisive measures can be taken, we cannot take any proactive or decisive measures.

 

[acid rain]

Sounds good......but how you going to that?




Rather then base everything on winning a war how about settling all outstanding issues with its neighbours.

Because its a war with armies deployed and shots fired everyday - its not issue based as anyone would believe - there's no active resolution or discussions that will end it. It only ends one way.

A Prime example is the border heats up everytime when there is a movement towards discussion or resolution which means the people who are fighting this war dont want a discussed solution.

 

[dabong1]

There really isn't one, other than what we are doing presently. Kill every foreign terrorist trying to sneak in, dispatch them to hell. Keep the borders secure (as has been done). Let the country that produces all those terrorists grapple with the consequences.

I think that pakistan will be able to co opt the militants fighting the pakistani state back into the fold after the US leaves and i think it be the 90s all over again with the taliban-pak military trying to take control of afghanistan and the movement of fighters into kashmir.

This ain't the 90s anymore. As long as we keep the borders securely impenetrable, Kashmir will be (and is) peaceful.

At the moment the fighters are carrying out small ops to find gaps and weakness in indians defences but once these have been found over the next few years they will be exploited fully......i think somewhere along the there will be an outbreak of shelling for a few days-weeks along the LoC.
This is think ill be done on purpose by pakistan to they can destroy the fence and other defensive measures put up by india during the last decade.
I am not giving you some bravado talk but my analysis on what i think will happen in the next few years.

 

[illusion8]

Dude.. In monsoons, you do not go out looking for colonies of mosquitoes all over your city to destroy them. You destroy the ones in your house (COIN) , put All Out in your rooms (Strong Police force & NIA) and at times, put a mosquito repellent gel (Citizen awareness).

Why not go out looking for colonies of mosquitoes and also keep all out in your room? better yet fumigate the whole region. Drastic situations call for drastic solutions.

Because its a war with armies deployed and shots fired everyday - its not issue based as anyone would believe - there's no active resolution or discussions that will end it. It only ends one way.

A Prime example is the border heats up everytime when there is a movement towards discussion or resolution which means the people who are fighting this war dont want a discussed solution.

Spot on

 

[SwAggeR]

End the source of the proxy war or removing the capability to wage one, this is not an idealogical, religious war neither is it for the locals or their interests, this is geopolitical and an extension of the hostilities that we face from our enemies since their creation, so the question is - how does one win a war?

Yeah sure, i'll surely post the brief once it gets approved by the MOD and the president -

The point is what would have China, Russia, Israel, US, UK etc have done if they were in our predicament. I don't claim that we are them - but then the question is why aren't we them, I don't claim that the solution is a simple one, it's not a step 1-2-3, it probably must be a numerous step method.

Hold your horses till K-4 gets deployed .Till then just continue with pest control.We need some live fire CI training.20 years of expertise has won us awe of even superpower.

 

[janon]

I think that pakistan will be able to co opt the militants fighting the pakistani state back into the fold after the US leaves and i think it be the 90s all over again with the taliban-pak military trying to take control of afghanistan and the movement of fighters into kashmir.



At the moment the fighters are carrying out small ops to find gaps and weakness in indians defences but once these have been found over the next few years they will be exploited fully......i think somewhere along the there will be an outbreak of shelling for a few days-weeks along the LoC.
This is think ill be done on purpose by pakistan to they can destroy the fence and other defensive measures put up by india during the last decade.
I am not giving you some bravado talk but my analysis on what i think will happen in the next few years.

Sure sure, we'll wait and see.

When I said "this ain't the 90s", I did not mean that Pakistan has changed. If it has, it has only changed for the worse. What has really changed is how the Indian army has secured its border, and raised the RR to protect Kashmir.

Pakistan can funnel terrorists from Afghanistan or mars, for all we care, after 2014 or before. There will be no return to the 90s, because of the excellent border fencing done by India. Not even a cat can escape detection now, with all the multi layered thermal and imaging sensors deployed. Besides, the counter insurgency force (Rashtriya rifles) was a fledgling organization in the early 90s, today it is the largest and the most experienced such force in the world, with boots-on-the-ground presence in every inch of the state. In their own words, they have complete "area domination". Every foreign terrorist that pak tries to bring from Afghanistan or Syria or Uzbek or wherever, will meet the same fate as their predecessors, the ones you see in the pics linked on page one.

Whether Pakistan learns a lesson and stops sending Uzbek and Chechen and arab and Pakistani terrorists ostensibly for "Kashmir freedom", or continues the same old way, doesn't matter to India any more. Pakistan army itself cannot take an inch from India. So these bearded and illiterate gunmen are not going to either.

So IA's response to threats like this, that post 2014 all terrorists from all war wrecked countries will come to India, is:

"Come on, come all - this rock may fly,
From its firm base, as soon as I!"

 

[kaykay]

Militancy in Kashmir is going to be weak with every year passing now. Back in 90s we didn't have proper surveillance on LOC neither LOC was properly guarded(no fence, no electronic survelliance, no drones etc) but now things have changed and going to be better with every day passing. Then we deployed BSF as counter-insurgency force which had no experience in that. Only after 1995, we formed a dedicated CT force 'Rashtriya Rifles' but in very small numbers(5000). Back then Kashmir Police had no role in counter-insurgency neither they had man'power. But atleast these drawbacks have been sorted out now as BSF is no more deployed for counter-insurgency(just safeguarding some places) and Rashtriya Rifles are in great numbers with experience more than anybody in world(80,000 troops). Kashmiri Police has been trained in great numbers and they saw great success recently. LOC has been all fenced and being guarded with modern equipments like drones and Thermal cameras. So conclusion is that, militants can't do better than they are doing now a days. @Abingdonboy @janon @INDIC @illusion8

 

[SwAggeR]

Sure sure, we'll wait and see.

When I said "this ain't the 90s", I did not mean that Pakistan has changed. If it has, it has only changed for the worse. What has really changed is how the Indian army has secured its border, and raised the RR to protect Kashmir.

Pakistan can funnel terrorists from Afghanistan or mars, for all we care, after 2014 or before. There will be no return to the 90s, because of the excellent border fencing done by India. Not even a cat can escape detection now, with all the multi layered thermal and imaging sensors deployed. Besides, the counter insurgency force (Rashtriya rifles) was a fledgling organization in the early 90s, today it is the largest and the most experienced such force in the world, with boots-on-the-ground presence in every inch of the state. In their own words, they have complete "area domination". Every foreign terrorist that pak tries to bring from Afghanistan or Syria or Uzbek or wherever, will meet the same fate as their predecessors, the ones you see in the pics linked on page one.

Whether Pakistan learns a lesson and stops sending Uzbek and Chechen and arab and Pakistani terrorists ostensibly for "Kashmir freedom", or continues the same old way, doesn't matter to India any more. Pakistan army itself cannot take an inch from India. So these bearded and illiterate gunmen are not going to either.

So IA's response to threats like this, that post 2014 all terrorists from all war wrecked countries will come to India, is:

"Come on, come all - this rock may fly,
From its firm base, as soon as I!"

Hurrah to that !!

 

[illusion8]

That presupposes that the neighbor is really interested in settling the issues.

As long as our neighbor covets our territory, we have to maintain eternal vigilance. For India, it is not about winning a war any more. She is securely in a position where the neighbor will not dare to wage an open war against her, ever. It is simply about keeping out unwanted terrorist scum, and as the photos show, we are doing a fantastic job of that.

As long as our neighbours are paying a bigger price due to their dirty games, we have nothing to complain about. Ensuring that is the job of our professional armed forces, since we don't outsource national security to rag tag mujahideens.

Yeah sure - keep ducking and moving out of the way of the punches, meanwhile the enemy keeps introducing featherweights(militants) against a heavy weight(IA) and the featherweight waits for his chance to get lucky and land a punch against the heavyweight and this bout goes on forever.

Well, as long as you cannot suggest a better solution, India will have to continue doing what we are doing. I'm not saying it's an ideal solution, but a better one has not been discovered yet. Pro-active, decisive etc are nice words - but unless you know specifically what proactive or decisive measures can be taken, we cannot take any proactive or decisive measures.

As I said, the solution would be drastic and involve considerable sacrifices - but it saves us the ignominy of being ridiculed of not taking care of the menace for all these years and appear to be a soft target for the rest of the world.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Militancy in Kashmir is going to be weak with every year passing now. Back in 90s we didn't have proper surveillance on LOC neither LOC was properly guarded(no fence, no electronic survelliance, no drones etc) but now things have changed and going to be better with every day passing. Then we deployed BSF as counter-insurgency force which had no experience in that. Only after 1995, we formed a dedicated CT force 'Rashtriya Rifles' but in very small numbers(5000). Back then Kashmir Police had no role in counter-insurgency neither they had man'power. But atleast these drawbacks have been sorted out now as BSF is no more deployed for counter-insurgency(just safeguarding some places) and Rashtriya Rifles are in great numbers with experience more than anybody in world(80,000 troops). Kashmiri Police has been trained in great numbers and they saw great success recently. LOC has been all fenced and being guarded with modern equipments like drones and Thermal cameras. So conclusion is that, militants can't do better than they are doing now a days. @Abingdonboy @janon @INDIC @illusion8

I agree. Many are still under the impression that the indo-Pak border is a free for all but nothing could be further from the truth. There are multiple layers of strengthened razor-wire tipped fencing- electrified in sections. EO/IR motion activated sensors, Unmanned ground sensors (UGS), UAV patrolling, manned armed patrols with guard dogs etc


I always refer back to this article to illustrate how effective the Indian security apparatus has now become at foiling these scumbags:


http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-indian-army-aviation-special-operations.html


The precision and effectiveness the Indian military now displays is pretty stunning.

 

[dabong1]

That presupposes that the neighbor is really interested in settling the issues

So you think that pakistan does want a fair settlement on the issue even after musharraff handed you nearly everything you wanted.

As long as our neighbor covets our territory,

When you think its your territory you dont go to the UN and ask them to resolve the issue.

we have to maintain eternal vigilance.

Please... less of the "eternal vigilance"......were not not trying out to be a hollywood script writers job.

For India, it is not about winning a war any more. She is securely in a position where the neighbor will not dare to wage an open war against her, ever.

I think you will find the balance has swung into pakistan favour after to tested your nukes and pakistan did likewise.......before pakistan would have to think twice before taking kashmir as the indian army would move into punjab but with knowledge that any movement by indian forces into punjab would be met by battlefield nukes in pakistan territory thus keeping the battle confined to kashmir.

It is simply about keeping out unwanted terrorist scum, and as the photos show, we are doing a fantastic job of that.

A bit more detail on the pictures would be good......how have the bodies ended up in the same spot?.....if its a sniper then why have non of the militants run but rather stood together to get picked off....looks a bit they have been executed rather then snipered.
And going of past indian reports that they killed militants that then turned to be staged i would be careful with indian claims until its been thoroughly proved.

As long as our neighbours are paying a bigger price due to their dirty games, we have nothing to complain about.

Even after the americans say that india is using proxies against pakistan you bury your head.

Ensuring that is the job of our professional armed forces, since we don't outsource national security to rag tag mujahideens.

The same "rag tag mujahideens" who along with pakistan defeated the russians, checkmated the US-NATO in afghanistan but some how the indian army is going bring them under control.

Well, as long as you cannot suggest a better solution, India will have to continue doing what we are doing. I'm not saying it's an ideal solution, but a better one has not been discovered yet. Pro-active, decisive etc are nice words - but unless you know specifically what proactive or decisive measures can be taken, we cannot take any proactive or decisive measures.

Simple.......pakistan and india take joint control of kashmir.

 

[freshmint]

If Pakistan can claim Kashmir calling it the jugular vein of Pakistan, the whole world can call Middle East the jugular vein of world as it contains oil and hence the whole world should claim Middle East and deprive the local residents there of any citizenship rights and drive them into other Muslim countries where there is no oil.

There are 15000 mosques in Indian Kashmir for just 7 million Muslims constantly blaring Arabic chants on loudspeakers. If that is oppression, India should dismantle all but 1000 mosques in Kashmir and make the people of Kashmir truly liberated from constant noise pollution by incomprehensible Arabic language. Turkey is 99% Muslim but even the Turks do not allow Arabic for call to prayer in Turkish mosques.

India is a very soft state and too complacent and tolerant of certain religious fanatics and hence is paying the price for its perceived weakness.