Indus Viper (Pak-Turkey joint military excercise)

[Muradk]

couple of years back in sargoda, F-7 shot an F-16 in a Dog-Fight. Tho the F-7 pilot was a flt lt and the f-16 was a wing commander. Every fighter plane has a level when it performs at its peek , F-7 will kick *** between 5000ft to 10000-ft, on the other hand F-16 will kick *** under 5000Ft and above 20000FT. When the Dog fight started the Fl lt was smarter and got the f-16 at @7000ft and shot it down no one could belive in PAF that this could happen , The F-16 pilot the poor chap got his butt kicked and got grounded for a week the Flt lt got a special assingment. I have the actuall report just have to locate it will post it in 24hr.
When we got mirages in the 70s, we used to go head to head with then in a F-86 and come out victorious and some times not, most of the time we won because we had to much experience in Dog-Fight. All I am saying is never underestimate the pilot regarless what ever he is flying.

 

[HAIDER]

Nodoubt,,, a pilot who was flying Sabre shotdown Gnat and Mig21 (1965). Same pilot in flying Gnat and Mig21 and shotdown lated mirage (Arab-Israel war). Its training.

 

[Quwa]

IIRC a PAF F-6 shot down an IAF MiG-21 in 1971.

I think once the generational gap between IAF and PAF is the same, things would reach a point of stale-mate in air power b/w Pakistan and India. No doubt both AFs will be pushing to have their pilots log as many hours per year as their NATO counterparts - 180+ IIRC. From the looks of it the numerical ratio between the two may also close in quite a bit?

 

[Blackpearl]

Agreed to all above mentioned points.
I would request, somebody comment on the aerial doctrines of both the countries, Pakistan and Turkey.

i Have read, somewhere, that Israeli Airforce functions on the same doctrine as we, that is 'Fight against heavy odds'.

Secondly, lets talk about training.
Combat Commander School, is no doubt an elite school for elite people.
In 2006, National Geographic aired an information programme, 'Mission Uddaan', about Indian AirForce.
In one episode, Indian Top Gun school, was discussed. called TACDE
probably stands for 'Tactics Aerial Combat Development Establishment'

It shows, Indian pilots being trained on sophisticated simulators. The whole array of training gadgetry looks impressive. One can get an idea how such 'Fighter Weapon Schools' function by watching the hit movie 'Top Gun', one of my favourites.

Where do our CCS stands in world ranking?

 

[EagleEyes]

 

[Ahassan]

great pictures..........!

 

[blain2]

In year 2004, a joint US-Indian Airforce exercise was held in India, went by the name 'Cope India'. Some F-15s of USAF participated in aerial combat against IAF SU-30 MKIs. It was a pure dogfight exercise. USAF F-15s were operating under some constraints, when simulated engagements were happening. It came out that, every time IAF SU-30s were able to 'Kill' the enemy aircraft (F-15s). The outcome of the exercise was a blow to USAF invincibility and provided a great boast to IAF, as IAF employed its own tactics, to counter USAF Aircarft. Both the countries share each Airforce's experience and learn a lot from each other.

Now consider 'Indus Viper', well impressive name for onlookers.
Similar aircraft are particpating, DACT is out, dont consider pitching F-7s against F-16s, our Turkish friend may not like it.

Before that, consider this.
Our Airforce is India specific, designed and equipped to meet India's threat adequately. Our aerial strategy and doctrine revolves around " Survive and fight against heavy Odds". Our training, aerial tactics is based on this.

Turkish Airforce is part of a bigger NATO Airforces. After the cold war is over, presently, NATO is engaged in more peace enforcing missions in troubled region of Europe, Balkans, Kosovo and then in Afghanistan. Now NATO Airforces find themselves in flying and enforcing 'No Fly Zone' Missions. Hot aerial combat , 'against heavy odds', is no more their. NATO forces are more concentrating over combined arms action, close co-ordination between Army- Airforce. The biggest threat to Turkey came from Kurds, so Turkish Airforce may be more bent upon providing Close Air Support to land Forces.

The point is , there is not so much common between the two Airforces, in terms of Aerial strategy and doctrine, then what are we jointly training. Turkish Pilots are here in Pakistan, because, either, PAF pilots were there in Turkey, in near Past, or they will be visiting Turkey, in near future, once our Turkish guests leave. So its a symbolic exercise, boasting warm relations between the two countries.

With due regard, I disagree and here are a few reasons:

PAF has never advertised the results of its exercises with any of the other multinational or bilateral partners. This is a sign of maturity and confidence in terms of how we learn things from the others and what our own capabilities are. PAF or for that matter, no other professional Air Force puts on a show with a report card claiming that they have done this or that to the other side.
You will hear comments in passing about this or that but that would be it. Nothing would go out to the press (as it should be) and more so if the other Air Force has such close fraternal ties as PAF and TuAF have.

Now getting back to the value of the joint exercises with TuAF, so let me put a few things down here for consideration:

i) Outside of the US, Turkish Airforce is the only NATO Air Force that has the setup and the training apparatus to match what is offered at Nellis AFB for the Red Flag exercises. This is a very big pool of experience for the PAF to tap into. PAF has been participating in training for CAOs with the other Air Forces and this will positively impact PAF's own training and mission planning for large strike packages.

ii) PAF has invested recently in the Turkish equipment to setup an identical Air Combat test range very similar to what the Turks have at Konya.

iii) Turks have a lot of very recent Air Combat experience over Aegean against the HAF who fly Mirage 2000s and F-16s. So once again, their experience would be welcomed by the PAF.

Also to your point about the TACDE issue...PAF's CCS predates the Indian TACDE by at least a decade. Almost every single PAF or multinational exercise in which PAF participates involves elements from the CCS in either a planning role or grading role. In addition, CCS also participates in the development of weapons deployment tactics.

Once again, the difference in the case of PAF CCS is that it does not get much PR and in my opinion that is fine.

 

[blain2]

Also to your point about the TACDE issue...PAF's CCS predates the Indian TACDE by at least a decade. Almost every single PAF or multinational exercise in which PAF participates involves elements from the CCS in either a planning role or grading role. In addition, CCS also participates in the development of weapons deployment tactics.

Once again, the difference in the case of PAF CCS is that it does not get much PR and in my opinion that is fine.

To prove my point about the importance of CCS in all such exercises, here is a news item:

Indus Viper - PAF-TUAF Joint Exercise continues in full swing
April 26, 2008

ISLAMABAD: Ten-day multidimensional operational exercise “Indus Viper” between Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and Turkish Air Force (TUAF), which commenced on April 21 is in full swing.

Turkish Ambassador Rauf Engin Soysal and Major General Sirin Unal, Deputy Commander, First Air Force Command Eskisehir visited Pakistan Air Force Base Mushaf and witnessed the ongoing exercise “Indus Viper”.

During his visit the Turkish Ambassador Rauf Engin Soysal and Major General Sirin Unal, Deputy Commander, First Air Force Command Eskisehir called on Air Commodore M Ashfaque Arain, Base Commander PAF Base, Mushaf and exchanged views on the on going exercise.

They also attended a briefing on exercise “Indus Viper” arranged by Combat Commanders School and later on met with the pilots and staff of both the air forces participating in exercise.

Exercise “Indus Viper” marks the beginning of a new era in which both the Air Forces, are undertaking an operational exercise in Pakistani Air Space for the first time.

The event would not only give an opportunity to the combat crew of both the Air Forces to interact more closely but also help in strengthening brotherly relations that the two nations enjoy.

To enhance interaction through mutual exercises, Air Forces of the brotherly countries of Pakistan and Turkey are conducting a joint operational Exercise Indus Viper, which will provide an opportunity to combat crew of both the Air Forces to acquaint themselves with applied tactics of air power.

Turkish Air Force’s contingent arrived with five F-16 C/D aircraft and 50 personnel at PAF Base, Mushaf, Sargodha Monday, to participate in the exercise.

Earlier, on his arrival the Turkish Ambassador Rauf Engin Soysal, and Major General Sirin Unal, Deputy Commander, First Air Force Command Eskisehir were received by Air Commodore M Ashfaque Arain, Base Commander PAF Base, Mushaf (Sargodha).

 

[Blackpearl]

Got your Point.....
Sir blain2!

 

[blain2]

Just my 2 cents worth ($.02)

 

[sohailbutt]

guys,

i think PAF should conduct exercises with airforces which have more advanced jets like Block 60's of UAE, F-15's, Tornado's and Eurofighters (when they get them) of Saudi Airforce, and with Iranian airforce as well which i think flies Russian fighters and US F-14's

 

[EagleEyes]

 

[EagleEyes]

TURKEY HOLDS JOINT AIR FORCE EXERCISES WITH PAKISTAN

By John C. K. Daly

Wednesday, April 30, 2008

While American and European airspace is crisscrossed with commercial aircraft, Eurasia's airspace is increasingly resounding to the roar of military aircraft. Last week the Commonwealth of Independent States held its “Ariel” exercises stretching from the Polish border to the Pacific, while in Afghanistan International Security Assistance Force aircraft carry out daily raids against the remnants of the Taliban.

Now the Pakistani and Turkish air forces are carrying out a joint aerial operation, “Operation Indus Viper 2008,” in Pakistan's skies.

Operation Indus Viper 2008 began on April 21 and is scheduled to last for 10 days. The operation is based at the Pak Faza'ya (Pakistan Air Force, or PAF) facility at Mushaf in Sargodha at the Mushaf in Sargodha base in eastern Pakistan's Punjab province. Five Turk Hava Kuvvetleri (Turkish Air Force, or TuAF) F-16 C/D fighters and 50 personnel from 191 Filo are participating in the joint exercise (Zaman Gaztesi, April 22).

The deputy chief of the air staff, Air Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, said, "The event will not only give an opportunity to the combat crews of both air forces to interact more closely but will also help in strengthening the brotherly relations that the two nations enjoy" (: : : Pakistan Air Force Official Website: : :). Suleman added that Operation Indus Viper 2008 marked the beginning of a new era with the air forces of the two countries and that the TuAF had consistently maintained its historic traditions, earning a well-deserved name in the ranks of modern air forces.

Turkey’s Ambassador to Pakistan Rauf Engin Soysal and TuAF Deputy Commander, First Air Force Command Major General Sirin Unal of the First Air Force Command Eskisehir, visited the PAF Mushaf Airbase to observe Operation Indus Viper 2008 exercises (Associated Press of Pakistan, April 26). While there, Mushaf Soysal and Unal attended a briefing on Indus Viper 2008 arranged by PAF’s Combat Commanders School, and they subsequently met with the pilots and staff of both the air forces involved in the exercise.

Operation Indus Viper 2008 is not the first joint air exercise carried out by the two nations. At the Operation Indus Viper 2008 concluding ceremony, PAF Acting Chief of the Air Staff (ACAS) Air Marshal Shahid Lateef reminded his audience that contacts between the two air forces went back more than a decade and said, “It was indeed a great honor for the PAF to have Turkish Air Force F-16s participate in our 50th anniversary celebrations in 1997. The Indus Viper exercises ... are indeed an extension of the 1997 co-operation. We are thankful to the TuAF for providing our aircrew and combat controllers the opportunity of gaining useful experience. This will go a long way in helping the PAF to prepare for inter-operability with other air forces of the world” (Daily Times, April 30). Lateef concluded his remarks by lauding the PAF’s current transformation, noting that “in a few years we will be a modern combat outfit ready to undertake integrated operations with any other air force in the world” (The News International, April 30).

The two Air Forces share a number of common characteristics, not least of which is that both are engaged in operations against indigenous terrorism and that they both operate substantial numbers of American aircraft. Security concerns may well have been behind the fact that when the PAF issued a press release on April 14 about the forthcoming exercise, it omitted the operation’s specific dates and duration, saying only, “To benefit from each other’s expertise and professional experiences, the PAF and TuAF are conducting a joint exercise in Pakistan this month. The exercise will benefit both participants, hone their professional skills and further enhance existing brotherly relations between the two nations and their Air Forces” (: : : Pakistan Air Force Official Website: : :).

An interesting aspect of the joint operation is what strengths the two Air Forces bring to the exercise. Besides its recent aerial operations over northern Iraq, the TuAF has had a lot of air combat interdiction experience over the Aegean against Greece’s Hellenic Air Force (HAF), which flies both F-16s and Mirage 2000s.

Furthermore, outside of the United States, the TuAF is the only NATO Air Force that has facilities and training apparatus matching what the USAF has at Nellis Air Force Base for the Red Flag exercises, which provides a substantial body of experience for the PAF to tap. TuAF pilots are used to the tactics of the Israeli Air Force because of joint training scenarios, most notably, the “Anatolian Eagle” exercises, which have been held annually near Konya since 2001.

Besides USAF, TuAF and IAF aircraft, the PAF sent six F-16s to participate in the Anatolian Eagle exercises in 2004 and 2006, but the PAK has more limited experience than the TuAF with Israeli aircraft and tactics (Genelkurmay Baþkanlýðý Resmi Kurumsal Ýnternet Sitesidir - Anasayfa - Turkish General Staff Official Web Site - Main Page). The PAF’s strategic vision is “India specific,” designed and equipped to meet the threat from India, and TuAF pilots will undoubtedly be interested in learning more about the tactics that the PAF has developed to neutralize such a numerically superior potential enemy.

The most interesting post-op discussions will undoubtedly occur in the PAF Mushaf officers’ mess, when PAF and TuAF pilots exchange their stories. A likely topic will be America's reliability as an arms supplier, especially inasmuch as both nations have suffered F-16 embargoes, Turkey after its 1974 operation in northern Cyprus and Pakistan in the wake of its 1999 nuclear tests. As interesting as these conversations will be, it seems rather unlikely that they will ever appear in print.

TURKEY HOLDS JOINT AIR FORCE EXERCISES WITH PAKISTAN - Eurasia Daily Monitor

 

[blain2]

Wow..webby some of the stuff in this article seems right out of the posts on this forum (including my own)..

See this:

Furthermore, outside of the United States, the TuAF is the only NATO Air Force that has facilities and training apparatus matching what the USAF has at Nellis Air Force Base for the Red Flag exercises, which provides a substantial body of experience for the PAF to tap.

and my post #37

I wrote:

i) Outside of the US, Turkish Airforce is the only NATO Air Force that has the setup and the training apparatus to match what is offered at Nellis AFB for the Red Flag exercises. This is a very big pool of experience for the PAF to tap into. PAF has been participating in training for CAOs with the other Air Forces and this will positively impact PAF's own

Then he says:

An interesting aspect of the joint operation is what strengths the two Air Forces bring to the exercise. Besides its recent aerial operations over northern Iraq, the TuAF has had a lot of air combat interdiction experience over the Aegean against Greece’s Hellenic Air Force (HAF), which flies both F-16s and Mirage 2000s.

and I said in the same post #37:

iii) Turks have a lot of very recent Air Combat experience over Aegean against the HAF who fly Mirage 2000s and F-16s. So once again, their experience would be welcomed by the PAF.

Maybe I am reading too much into it, but I do see some copying of the ideas here. The funny thing is that I do not even mind but you'd hope that these guys who write for a living would reach out a bit more to the sources close to the exercises than just snooping around the forums ;-)

 

[Muradk]

guys,

i think PAF should conduct exercises with airforces which have more advanced jets like Block 60's of UAE, F-15's, Tornado's and Eurofighters (when they get them) of Saudi Airforce, and with Iranian airforce as well which i think flies Russian fighters and US F-14's

Sohail PAf has already conducted its excercise with US we shot there F-14 with our F-6 back in the 70s , Retd Air cdre Jamal shot them. and F-16s back in early 2000 that was some show case. the F-16 went 3 time against OC9 Sqd and the American got shot all 3 times.