What's new

Indus Valley Civilization, bronze age info thread

W.11

BANNED
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
15,032
Reaction score
-32
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
All data related to the IVC, bronze age

French team uncovers mysteries of Indus civilisation’s ‘industrial hub’

Calling the ‘golden period’ (2,500BC-2,300BC) as the first period of the Indus Valley civilisation, the French archaeologist said the site was either a contemporary of Moenjodaro or predated it. She said pottery factories had been found in one part of the site, while ‘apartments’, houses and a large ‘monumental’ building had been discovered in another part of it.

Dr Didier was impressed with its drainage system and said many antiquities found at the site bore resemblance to those spotted at Harappa and Moenjodaro.


She said they explored an area with 1,000-metre radius where they recovered mud bricks, apartments, housing rooms, pottery etc. They found ovens and figurines in its eastern part depicting domestic activities, and cutting stones and tools in the central part that seemed to be a manufacturing area. Besides, human and animal figurines had also been found. They found a massive building, compartments and bricks in the south-western part.


===========

im not sure what does apartment mean here and how its distinguishable from a house, does it mean multistorey housnig architecture or does it mean a dwelling smaller than the house, the presence of monumental building absent at other sites esp mohenjo daro means that the sites need to be further excavated before reaching absence of any ''elite class' conclusion.
 
.
- most of the houses were similar and made with bricks.some had wells inside them. no windows faced the main street while doors opened to the main street. these hoses were G or G+1 pattern houses. they were inside a wall which protected the whole city. ppl residing in those houses were mainly traders or officials.
- often at the centre, there was a citadel which encompassed baths, temples (non religious) and royal households and important officials.
- outside the city walls, lived peasant class ppl.
-interesting fact, most of the harappan cities used bricks of 1:2:4 ratio, without fail. same with the city walls, only with larger sizes.
 
.
May be it was something like this current virus outbreaks that wiped them off... May be..
 
.
May be it was something like this current virus outbreaks that wiped them off... May be..
it was slow climate change that made the harappan civ ppl to move eastwards, towards the upper gangetic area.
 
.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-06109-2_4

upload_2020-3-31_12-39-48.png


There is evidence of countable units of precious metal being used for exchange from the Vedic period onwards. A term Nishka appears in this sense in the Rigveda. Later texts speak of cows given as gifts being adorned with pādas of gold. A pāda, literally a quarter, would have been a quarter of some standard weight. A unit called Śatamāna, literally a 'hundred standard', representing 100 krishnalas is mentioned in Satapatha Brahmana. A later commentary on Katyayana Srautasutra explains that a Śatamāna could also be 100 rattis. All these units referred to gold currency in some form but they were later adopted to silver currency.[11][12]

Both textual and archaeological evidence suggests there was some form of metal currency since the indus valley civilization period and continued to the historic periods.

===========

Lady of spiked throne

cbe58524b390eff3ffc4b488b30e1c8f.jpg


a woman riding two bulls, Kausambi 2000 BC-1800 BC

upload_2020-3-31_12-46-44.png


Bodhisatva Gandhara 4th-6th century AD

upload_2020-3-31_12-48-3.png


Indus valley civilization motif of a female sittnig on a throne flanked by two bulls probably made in 2700 BC, second is kausambi figurine of a female riding two bulls which may have religious affiliation with the lady of the spiked throne cult, third image shows a very familiar setting of bodhisatva siting on a throne flanked by two lions.
 
.
Gold button

31_2.jpg


A button or sequin made of thin gold foil with a small interior loop for attachment to clothing. This piece was found crumpled into a small wad, possibly in preparation for remelting to make a new ornament. (H2000-4445/2212-01, Mound E, Trench 54).
 
.
it was slow climate change that made the harappan civ ppl to move eastwards, towards the upper gangetic area.
It's very interesting that certain people postulate the idea that because of "climate change" the inhabitants of the Indus Valley decided to leave their rich and fertile river valleys to trek across a 400 mile desert to find salvation somewhere in India.

If that was the case, Indian ethnic groups would have the most amount of Iranian Neolithic admixture (going by the most accepted theory that IVC was formed by Iranian Neolithics).

Does not seem to be the case at all; the genetically closest ethnic groups to Iranian Neolithic samples are ethnic groups that continue to inhabit the Indus region.

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 51.31
2 Caucasian 22.69
3 W-African 7.76
4 S-Indian 6.28
5 SW-Asian 4.69
6 SE-Asian 2.85
7 E-African 2.33
8 Pygmy 1.4
9 Papuan 0.56
10 San 0.13

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 makrani (hgdp) 11.35
2 balochi (hgdp) 13.83
3 brahui (hgdp) 15.43
4 kalash (hgdp) 21.36
5 pathan (hgdp) 23.32
6 pashtun (harappa) 23.69
7 bhatia (harappa) 24.12
8 sindhi (harappa) 25.39
9 burusho (hgdp) 25.63
10 sindhi (hgdp) 25.83
11 tajik (yunusbayev) 26.41
12 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 28.06
13 punjabi-arain (xing) 28.13
14 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 28.84
15 kashmiri (harappa) 29
16 turkmen (yunusbayev) 29.31
17 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 29.31
18 iranian (behar) 29.37
19 iranian (harappa) 30.1
20 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 30.34

@Indus Pakistan @Taimur Khurram
 
Last edited:
.
One way to learn about Indus Valley Civilization is artistic comparison which can solve many riddles.

i just saw this figurine and instantly recalled some art style from historic period art

main-qimg-37b4b809176c461ba31d4dd39012044d


IVC statuette

main-qimg-32ef9dc0de4487bd415fd312ab276e34


Didargamj yakshi

the style of necklace wearing represents continuity of arts from IVC, even the wearing of bangles style is also the same. The slim waist is given importance in both cases.

16406723_1423246354376518_3779306621553211667_n.png


painted seals from the indu valley cvilization?

the source is dubious though

13770466_1220726884628467_2051405206654247390_n.png


A 2nd. Millennium BC, 44.0 cm long superb granite statuette of a lion carrying his prey - an antelope. It is a remarkable piece of carving done by an Indus Valley craftsperson of Panjghur, Baluchistan.


authenticity probably unverified, but given the stag and god relief, and the quetta chalise from IVC, this kind of art is not improbable in IVC period.

cup-with-four-gold-lions-in-relief-from-a-collection-in-quetta-indus-picture-id150622564


main-qimg-3fdd437b7418fd2544e9749486b0f181


8341001.jpg


Indus Valley gold, chiefly in jewellery, is very rare. It seems that gold was not readily available, and was not wasted, as in the case of burial goods, although this is different at Baluchistan sites. Most gold pieces use the metal very sparingly. In this example, the beads are hollow, and in the pendant, thin gold lies over an organic core. The pendant is in the form of a Indus River reed boat. All told, the necklace is about 43 cm in length and weighs only about 18 g.


http://eclecticmuseum.com/indus-valley.html
 
.
From Iraq: Innana shown below is the Sumerian goddess of love, fertility, and warfare. This has nothing to do "with your india". Such images are in every culture. Stop cherry picking and trying to define us. Kindly Define your "own race and stick with it". Please Give us a Break with your cherry picked stuff, please.
Below this picture Innana goddess is from Iraq, Jewelry is much more closer in design to Indus valley picture you posted. Many of Indus valley people immigrated from middle east to iran and then to Pakistan. They were themselves had various different "races" living side by side" as part of their civilization. The so called small waist and jewelry also existed in the middle east. I have put your indus valley figuruine image with Iraqi goddess Innana below.

Hymn of Inanna and Dumuz.jpg


Above: Iraqi goddess Innana

indus valley.jpg


Above: your posted Indus valley figurine. Notice the similarity in jewelry again with the Iraqi one. So stop twisting facts.


Please, let Pakistanis be who we are. From posts like this, we know that you are NOT one of us, in any possible way.

I am personally just a Muslim and feel no relationship with your "indian civilization".
Kindly don't bother replying.
 
Last edited:
.
From Iraq: Innana shown below is the Sumerian goddess of love, fertility, and warfare. This has nothing to do "with your india". Such images are in every culture. Stop cherry picking and trying to define us. Define your "own race and stick with it". Please Give us a Break with your cherry picked stuff, please.
Below this picture Innana goddess is from Iraq, Jewelry is much more closer in design to Indus valley picture you posted. Many of Indus valley people immigrated from middle east to iran and then to Pakistan. They were themselves had various different "races" living side by side" as part of their civilization. The so called small waist and jewelry also existed in the middle east.

View attachment 619743

Please, let Pakistanis be who we are. From posts like this, we know that you are NOT one of us, in any possible way.

I am personally just a Muslim and feel no relationship with your "indian civilization".
Kindly don't bother replying.

Im perfectly aware of innana images, but in your post just like other nationalist troll posts failed to address paoints i raised on artistic similarity

1. the female is shown with necklace sliding between her breats like the indian image which is not shown in your innana image

2. The Indus figurine is shown wearing shoulder length bangles, again not evident from your innana iimage

3. The figure is show with a very slim waist, again not exhibited in mesopotamian artisitic depiction of godde4ss innana.

im not an idiot and perfectly knowledgable on these goddess images present world wide, but i think you didn't use your intelligence in your nationalist post.
 
.
im not an idiot and perfectly knowledgable on these goddess images present world wide, but i think you didn't use your intelligence in your nationalist post.

You are not What? I don't have intelligence? seriously?

You have knowledge from where, actual anthropological rigorously scientific published research from non-indians and in English as well as in languages other than English (e.g. russian, french etc.) or "Wikipedia and hindu sites"?

We know the answer already.

You (an indian) "cherry picked that video on even Chahbahar " as usual to insinuate your forceful claim that "look here even in sistan (iran) we have people who look darker in someway (they were not likely Ethnic baloch anyway), hence Every body is indian.

Your usual racist conclusion. Thankfully people saw through that and immediately started posting video of actual ethnic Baloch. WHO by the way do look very different from "indians".

Realize, even darker people have different genome and resulting different facial anatomy, physicality, intelligence level and so on.

According to w.11, everybody is indian. India itself is collection of multiple races. and according to her, Pakistan is just another collection of races who are suppose to be "indians".

Pashtuns are indians, fair skinned hindko punjabi are indians, Kashmiris are indians etc, Pothwari Punjabis. etc. and now even Balochistan is indian. May he/she should say that face to face to all these people if he is man or woman enough.

Pakistan has a vast "post indus valley history too".


For example:

Realize for GOD sake, roughly 2/3 of Pakistan across the indus river was historically part of region called ariana, from which the name Iran came from.

They spoke avestan language at that time. then they migrated to modern Punjab and sindh (across the indus river) and gradually stared to speak in a derivative of avestan called sanskrit and synthesized so called "vedic rhymes" etc here in Punjab. That earlier Sanskrit morphed into Punjabi and sindhi over time.

A very small number of those sanskrit speaking migrated to india as priests and started teaching sanskrit based religion to "ethnic indians" and gradually indian influences took over and that earlier religion morphed into something completely different.

Priests had power so even the native indian languages adopted grammatical structure of indo-european languages even though the speakers of those lanuages themselves have nothing to do with iran or ariana.

Its important to note that the overwhelming majority of indians are "ethinic indian". They are a separate entity from modern day Pakistan in so many ways.

I have not even defined the Afghan and further iranian/turkish and arab, post aryan settlements etc. in Pakistan yet. Let's not go there. I don't have time for all that. I really am busy.

Seeking race based connection makes you actually a racist and Islam being a multi-racial civilization actually does not allow race based relationship but advocates that your islamic identity should become so strong and to such a degree that all your other identities are gone and then you become one with other other muslims, as of their own and they become truly as one of your own.

If you were a real muslim, you would accepted us like your own muslim brothers and sisters while respective our unique history and background and let go this deception based race driven relationship that you are seeking with Pakistanis, if at all.

It seems though that you are just imposing like other indians, your hindutva literature based fabricated identity on us, out of your arrogant indianess and nothing more. WE don't need that.

I personally use concept of ethnicities to keep india-pakistan same nonsense away since using islam does not work with indians. We don't want to be brother and sisters with indian hindus and with those non-hindus who are living as brothers and sisters with them because of ethnic affinities. There are verses of Quran and Hadith that say if we do that, we will be treated with them in the world hereafter. Hence we need our separateness as required to keep our religion intact and as required per islamic law. Indian need "racial arguments" so that they do not imposed themselves upon us. SO we use race to keep them in their own country. Whatever works. But your indian identity far trascent your islam if at all, in real terms. Good luck with that.

You are probably those indian muslims who live with your indian hindu brother and sisters feeling close attachment based on race rather than religion, living like them and yet are against those hardliner "hindutva" since they reject you as one of their own. Or you are more likely just an indian who is occasionally posting "anti-hindu" nonsense in a futile attempt to fool Pakistanis. We can see through that. We are very intelligent. We don't need your certificate to "prove that". Thank you.

Rather then respecting individual people's unique ethnicities, their self identity, their self definition, this indian W.11 is constantly attacking the unique genetic (noting that haplogroup and actual full genome are very different things) and cultural make up of various Pakistani people and ethnic groups by bluntly lying, cherry picking information, twisting facts.

I have decided to not indulge in such discussion here at all. WE will open a vast and well funded forum in 2 years or so when I return to Pakistan and in Urdu and English with documentaries, youtube videos and experts, we will educate Pakistanis who they are and who they aren't with rigorous scientific data. Later exteding all that when we will have our own newspapers and TV channels. Then posts like this will be ripped apart into thin air like they are suppose to. Nobody is allowed to define us but ourselves.

Your deep attachment to your race is fine but leave us alone. We have no interest in mingling with your hindu brothers and sisters. Do realize, we look, feel, talk very differently. I don't even notice that there are indian people when they are around. For us they are some random people from a random place with whom we feel no urge or need to connect to. We don't go around telling indians that we are the same as them like they do.

Only those who see themselves as "lower" wants to be the same with those they see as "higher". Its so obvious.


I don't have time for this right now though. So keep living in your delusion. Post whatever you like for the next two years. All of this will go away. Other PDF members no longer engage with you. They are smarter than me. I will do the same from now on. Believe whatever you like.
 
Last edited:
.
You are not What? I don't have intelligence? seriously?

You have knowledge from where, actual anthropological rigorously scientific published research from non-indians and in English as well as in languages other than English (e.g. russian, french etc.) or "Wikipedia and hindu sites"?

We know the answer already.

You (an indian) "cherry picked that video on even Chahbahar " as usual to insinuate your forceful claim that "look here even in sistan (iran) we have people who look darker in someway (they were not likely Ethnic baloch anyway), hence Every body is indian.

Your usual racist conclusion. Thankfully people saw through that and immediately started posting video of actual ethnic Baloch. WHO by the way do look very different from "indians".

Realize, even darker people have different genome and resulting different facial anatomy, physicality, intelligence level and so on.

According to w.11, everybody is indian. India itself is collection of multiple races. and according to her, Pakistan is just another collection of races who are suppose to be "indians".

Pashtuns are indians, fair skinned hindko punjabi are indians, Kashmiris are indians etc, Pothwari Punjabis. etc. and now even Balochistan is indian. May he/she should say that face to face to all these people if he is man or woman enough.

Pakistan has a vast "post indus valley history too".

For example:

Realize for GOD sake, roughly 2/3 of Pakistan across the indus river was historically part of region called ariana, from which the name Iran came from.

They spoke avestan language at that time. then they migrated to modern Punjab and sindh (across the indus river) and gradually stared to speak in a derivative of avestan called sanskrit and synthesized so called "vedic rhymes" etc here in Punjab.

A very small number of them migrated to india as priests and started teaching sanskrit based religion to "ethnic indians" and gradually indian influences took over and that earlier religion morphed into something completely different.

Priests had power so even the native indian languages adopted grammatical structure of indo-european languages even though the speakers of those lanuages themselves have nothing to do with iran or ariana.

Its important to note that the overwhelming majority of indians are "ethinic indian". They are a separate entity from modern Pakistan day in so many ways.

I have not even defined the Afghan and further iranian/turkish and arab, post aryan settlements etc. in Pakistan yet. Let's not go there. I don't have time for all that. I really am busy.

Seeking race based connection makes you actually a racist and Islam being a multi-racial civilization actually does not allow race based relationship but advocates that your islamic identity should become so strong and to such a degree that all your other identities are gone and then you become one with other other muslims, as of their own and they become truly as one of your own.

If you were a real muslim, you would accepted us like your own muslim brothers and sisters while respective our unique history and background and let go this deception based race driven relationship that you are seeking with Pakistanis, if at all. It seems though that you are just imposing like other indians, your hindutva literature based fabricated identity on us. WE don't need that.

I personally use concept of ethnicities to keep india-pakistan same nonsense away since using islam does not work with indians. We don't want to be brother and sisters with indian hindus and with those non-hindus who are living as brothers and sisters with them because of ethnic affinities. There are verses of Quran and Hadith that say if we do that, we will be treated with them in the world hereafter. Hence we need our separateness as required to keep our religion intact and as required per islamic law. Indian need "racial arguments" so that they do not imposed themselves upon us. SO we use race to keep them in their own country. Whatever works. But your indian identity far trascent your islam if at all, in real terms. Good luck with that.

You are probably those indian muslims who live with your indian hindu brother and sisters feeling close attachment based on race rather than religion, living like them and yet are against those hardliner "hindutva" since they reject you as one of their own. Or you are more likely just an indian who is occasionally posting "anti-hindu" nonsense in a futile attempt to fool Pakistanis. We can see through that. We are very intelligent. We don't need your certificate to "prove that". Thank you.

Rather then respecting individual people's unique ethnicities, their self identity, their self definition, this indian W.11 is constantly attacking the unique genetic (noting that haplogroup and actual full genome are very different things) and cultural make up of various Pakistani people and ethnic groups by bluntly lying, cherry picking information, twisting facts.

I have decided to not indulge in such discussion here at all. WE will open a vast and well funded forum in 2 years or so when I return to Pakistan and in Urdu and English with documentaries, youtube videos and experts we will educate Pakistanis who they are and who they aren't with rigorous scientific data. Then posts like this will be ripped apart into thin air like they are suppose too. Nobody is allowed to define us but ourselves.

Your deep attachment to your race is fine but leave us alone. We have no interest in mingling with your hindu brothers and sisters. Do realize, we look, feel, talk very differently. I don't even notice that there are indian people when they are around. For us they are some random people from a random place with whom we feel no urge or need to connect to. We don't go around telling indians that we are the same as ourselves like they do.


Only those who see themselves as "lower" wants to be the same with those they see as "higher". Its so obvious.


I don't have time for this right now though. So keep living in your delusion. Post whatever you like for the next two years. All of this will go away. Other PDF members no longer engage with you. They are smarter than me. I will do the same from now on. Believe whatever you like.

i dont have audacity to read your lengthy gibberish, try to address my post rather making conspracy theories.

regards
 
.
i dont have audacity to read your lengthy gibberish, try to address my post rather making conspracy theories.

regards

And we have time to read your pure made up nonsense?

This is called "projection" in psychology. When some can't understand the complexity of some material and feels stupid, then such people call other people's stuff as gibberish or them idiot.
Projecting how they feel about themselves on others.

Your post was addressed.

Your indian goddess figurine has much bigger waist, much bigger than indus one. Jewelry is different than indus one. its completely different. Jewelery wise, people have eyes, let them decide. Indus has jewelry very similar to Iraqi one. other than you everyone can see which jewelry is similar to which one. Only indian can't see that. whole world has pearl like or wooden pearl based jewelry. You raised no points at all. There is nothing to answer except answering your delusions.

People like have turn this forum into weird strange place.

Just live with your india, indian. please.

Just stay away from our country and its history. Define your own history and enjoy it. We are not your property to be defined by you.

Its so unfair that such people are allowed to use my country's flag which they don't even respect. Respecting a flag means respecting all of its people and their unique history, culture and way of life.

W.11 is an indian, a real hardliner indian.

which is fine. But keep your indian-ness to yourself. Why impose it upon on us.

I won't even read this, and have put you in ignore list.
 
Last edited:
.
It's very interesting that certain people postulate the idea that because of "climate change" the inhabitants of the Indus Valley decided to leave their rich and fertile river valleys to trek across a 400 mile desert to find salvation somewhere in India.
engage in a healthy discussion, this is not even a debate.
there are many theories (5 or 6 of them), among which climate change in the form of declining rainfall. plz enlighten if otherwise.

If that was the case, Indian ethnic groups would have the most amount of Iranian Neolithic admixture (going by the most accepted theory that IVC was formed by Iranian Neolithics).
indian demographics (racially) was different even at neolithic periods. for eg. dravidians at south, mongoloids at east and their admixture, the australoids (bhils, gonds, kochs) in the centre. with the arrival (not invasion) of the caucasians from the northwest, this pot became even more diverse.
pls correct me if i m wrong.

gradually stared to speak in a derivative of avestan called sanskrit
sanskrit and avestan are different languages from a single source language.
 
.
engage in a healthy
sanskrit and avestan are different languages from a single source language.
I don't have time now, nor this dicussion is worth our time. But there is a conflict of opinion whether proto-iranian was the common origin of Avestan and Sanskrit.

Or whether, the earlier forms of avestan language itself morphed into Sanskrit after religious differences arose between dividing groups of priests. that is when they started to change the terms say for God to devil and devil to God in opposition to each other, among other things and slowly languages diverged.

History is not that linear. Even later exchanges between sanskrit and avestan influenced each other.

whatever was the past, does not matter. You are welcome to believe. For me these details matter less in this post.

I just had it with this sometime hindu attacking, sometime Pakistan attacking w.11. I was just sick of this person's cherry picked details in an attempts misguide others.

Most of what I said, I probably did not even mean it. I just felt overwhelmed by this person and his use of little little details to make up big things and draw strange unrelated big conclusions.

So I just kept on typing, without thinking much at all.
 
Last edited:
.
Back
Top Bottom