Indonesian Air Force Ponders Fighter Choices

[Nike]

Indonesian Air Force Ponders Fighter Choices
by Reuben F. Johnson
February 5, 2018, 3:17 AM


For years, Indonesia’s Air Force (TNI-AU) has been trying to achieve a fighter force that fufills its operational requirements. The force has an overall motto of “no area without air cover,” but to cover such a widespread archipelago, the country will need at least three new squadrons of combat aircraft, according to the TNI-AU’s own calculations.

Part of the requirement has been filled by 24 used Lockheed Martin F-16s provided by the U.S. to Jakarta as Excess Defense Articles (EDA). These aircraft now supplement a fleet of six Northrop F-5Es that are still in service, plus five Sukhoi Su-27SKs and 11 Su-30MKs, plus 21 BAE Hawk 200 attack aircraft.

The leadership of the TNI-AU has previously aimed for a fighter fleet divided equally between F-16s, which would all be upgraded to a near-common configuration, and additional Su-27/30s. However, in recent times:

- Russia’s Rosoboronexport has proposed an arms package deal that includes 11 Su-35S aircraft configured similarly to those that have already been delivered to the Russian Aerospace Forces (VKS) and the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). But it has been reported that the “Su-35s” for Indonesia would be fitted with previous-generation engines and other avionics as found on the earlier Su-27/30-era models. Also, there is concern that the Russian financing of the aircraft would saddle Indonesia with a crippling debt burden.

- Saab Aerospace is offering a variant of the JAS-39C/D Gripen. These might be new-builds, or former Swedish air force aircraft. But they would include modernization options and a package of technology transfer projects, as well.

- Indonesia has also been involved in the South Korean KF-X stealth fighter. In 2016 the two countries signed an agreement whereby Indonesia would share 20 percent of the development cost, and in return. have some influence over the design, and participation by engineers from state-owned aerospace company PTDI in the South Korean program. The goal was to develop a 4.5 generation fighter that would enter service around 2025 with both the Korean and Indonesian air forces. But budgetary complications subsequently forced Indonesia to reconsider its participation. In October 2017, South Korean officials were trying to restructure the program to keep Indonesia involved.

The Shenyang FC-31 fighter is a dark horse candidate. The Chinese media describes it as a premier fighter with a stealthy radar cross section, which can be sold for a “reasonable price.” Chinese industry officials have said that the latest 2.0 prototype configuration addresses many of the shortcomings in the original design.

There are some indications that Indonesia is finding it more attractive to secure technology transfer projects with China than with other nations. Chinese industry is building the Jakarta-Bandung High-Speed Railway, a 142-km project designed to shorten the travel time between the two cities from three hours to just 40 minutes.

But a key problem with the FC-31 at present is that the Russian-made Klimov/Isotov RD-93 engine that powered the original prototype developed insufficient thrust. Now with the latest prototype some three tonnes heavier, the question about what engine would allow this aircraft to achieve its true performance potential looms even larger.


https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-.../indonesian-air-force-ponders-fighter-choices

 

[Taygibay]

Mado ma'am, do we have a ballpark figure
of the budget for that acquisition?

It would help to sort contesting entries.

Have a great day, Tay.

 

[initial_d_mk2]

FC-31 with western engine would be tempting but we all know that the winner will be F-16 block 70

 

[Nike]

Mado ma'am, do we have a ballpark figure
of the budget for that acquisition?

It would help to sort contesting entries.

Have a great day, Tay.

Around 4 to 5 billion US dollar, to secure plan for forming three full fledged squadrons. So far only Lockheed Martin had provided estimated price for 48 F 16 block 70 fighter along with support and logistic needed.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ax-limits-on-its-special-forces-idUSKBN1FC0WG

 

[BDforever]

Indonesian Air Force Ponders Fighter Choices
by Reuben F. Johnson
February 5, 2018, 3:17 AM


For years, Indonesia’s Air Force (TNI-AU) has been trying to achieve a fighter force that fufills its operational requirements. The force has an overall motto of “no area without air cover,” but to cover such a widespread archipelago, the country will need at least three new squadrons of combat aircraft, according to the TNI-AU’s own calculations.

Part of the requirement has been filled by 24 used Lockheed Martin F-16s provided by the U.S. to Jakarta as Excess Defense Articles (EDA). These aircraft now supplement a fleet of six Northrop F-5Es that are still in service, plus five Sukhoi Su-27SKs and 11 Su-30MKs, plus 21 BAE Hawk 200 attack aircraft.

The leadership of the TNI-AU has previously aimed for a fighter fleet divided equally between F-16s, which would all be upgraded to a near-common configuration, and additional Su-27/30s. However, in recent times:

- Russia’s Rosoboronexport has proposed an arms package deal that includes 11 Su-35S aircraft configured similarly to those that have already been delivered to the Russian Aerospace Forces (VKS) and the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). But it has been reported that the “Su-35s” for Indonesia would be fitted with previous-generation engines and other avionics as found on the earlier Su-27/30-era models. Also, there is concern that the Russian financing of the aircraft would saddle Indonesia with a crippling debt burden.

- Saab Aerospace is offering a variant of the JAS-39C/D Gripen. These might be new-builds, or former Swedish air force aircraft. But they would include modernization options and a package of technology transfer projects, as well.

- Indonesia has also been involved in the South Korean KF-X stealth fighter. In 2016 the two countries signed an agreement whereby Indonesia would share 20 percent of the development cost, and in return. have some influence over the design, and participation by engineers from state-owned aerospace company PTDI in the South Korean program. The goal was to develop a 4.5 generation fighter that would enter service around 2025 with both the Korean and Indonesian air forces. But budgetary complications subsequently forced Indonesia to reconsider its participation. In October 2017, South Korean officials were trying to restructure the program to keep Indonesia involved.

The Shenyang FC-31 fighter is a dark horse candidate. The Chinese media describes it as a premier fighter with a stealthy radar cross section, which can be sold for a “reasonable price.” Chinese industry officials have said that the latest 2.0 prototype configuration addresses many of the shortcomings in the original design.

There are some indications that Indonesia is finding it more attractive to secure technology transfer projects with China than with other nations. Chinese industry is building the Jakarta-Bandung High-Speed Railway, a 142-km project designed to shorten the travel time between the two cities from three hours to just 40 minutes.

But a key problem with the FC-31 at present is that the Russian-made Klimov/Isotov RD-93 engine that powered the original prototype developed insufficient thrust. Now with the latest prototype some three tonnes heavier, the question about what engine would allow this aircraft to achieve its true performance potential looms even larger.


https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-.../indonesian-air-force-ponders-fighter-choices

How many F-16s Indonesia has in total now ?

 

[Nike]

How many F-16s Indonesia has in total now ?

33 with six spare platforms for salvage purpose.

 

[BDforever]

33 with six spare platforms for salvage purpose.

I don't understand why Indonesia does not have 100+ fighter aircrafts strong Airforce, I mean economic size is not the problem that she can't afford. Can you explain ?

 

[pr1v4t33r]

I don't understand why Indonesia does not have 100+ fighter aircrafts strong Airforce, I mean economic size is not the problem that she can't afford. Can you explain ?

That's the plan if we can keep our economy stable and growing in healthy fashion. Our economy crashed in 98, so we focused on restoring and developing our economic resilient in the past decades. The result is the strong Indonesia that we see today.

There is plan for 3 new fighter sqn + 50 IFX, that's already around 100 unit planned for the near future. Add to that 2 sqn Sukhoi fighter jet, 2 sqn f16, 2 sqn hawk 200,1 sqn TA-50, 1 sqn Super Tucano...

 

[Nike]

I don't understand why Indonesia does not have 100+ fighter aircrafts strong Airforce, I mean economic size is not the problem that she can't afford. Can you explain ?

Orde baru policy in the past to hold back air force, Navy and Marine power and centering the power of armed forces toward political goals. After reformation era, Economic hardship prevent us from building armed forces until around 2010, where our economy size is sufficient for us to build decent armed forces.

Well to recap, what Indonesia Air Forces had bought, deal, and bring from 2010 to 2018.

1. 16 T 50 golden eagle for 400 million US dollar
2. 6 Su 30 Mk2 for 180 million US dollar
3. 9 C295 transport Aircraft for 160 US million US dollar
4. 6 EC 725 CSAR for 90 millions US dollar
5. 16 UAV aerostar, no price estimation because sensitivty deal with Israel
6. 16 Embraer Super Tucano
7. 9 C130H Hercules long body, ex Australy
8. 24 F 16 and modernization programme cost us 750 million US dollar
9. 10 EC 725 CSAR, repeat order
10. 2 CN 235 MPA and electronic intelligent gathering aircraft
11. 1 Boeing business Superjer for presidential purpose
12. 4 Thompson Air defense radar
13. 18 KT 1 wong be trainer
14. 32 Grob trainer
15. 11 Su 35
16. 1 C 295 special missions Aircraft
17. NASAMS ADS

 

[Taygibay]

Around 4 to 5 billion US dollar, to secure plan for forming three full fledged squadrons

OK and based on a 12 strong squadron, what
kind of support and duration thereof is expected
for those 40-48 planes, please?

Read you later, Tay.

 

[Nike]

OK and based on a 12 strong squadron, what
kind of support and duration thereof is expected
for those 40-48 planes, please?

Read you later, Tay.

16 planes per squadron. Well usual support will be spares and foreign technician to handle the misshaps usually for 18 months, the forming of repairing and maintenance squadron, captive seeker missile heat for training purpose, simulator dont know about engines spares (last time we bought around 10 engines spares when bought 6 Su 30 MKK), there is nothing else i can said.

Usually Indonesia Air Forces doesnt bought armaments along with platform in single contract. But recently there is drive to do all at once

 

[Taygibay]

Oh? I had derived 12 AC/sqdn from your force structure.
Sure, there were 16 F-5s in skadron Udara 14 but only
the stored 11 were active and skadron Udara 11 with 2
types of 2 Su-27-30 family can't put 16 identical planes
in flight. The AB Falcons were 12 ( 8-4 ) of same model
or about but again with 10 left and 24 coming in, you
just cannot pull 2 skadrons of 16 from 34 aircrafts, more
like 12 x 2 plus a training component and attrition reserve.

I am suggesting that the AF was actually running 12 units.

This said and acknowledging a target of 16 planes per sqdn,
48 planes is short of any slack which is not acceptable unless
you also have a service agreement or an efficient delegated
maintenance echelon with additional spares aplenty. ( +$$ )

The good news is that for 12 pieces in the fleet a more modern
non-Russian engine will require less spares than 85%. So it all
comes down to whether or not weapons are included.

In one example I know well, Qatar got 36 Rafales at a rate of
4.4 billion € for 48 "naked" planes. You can bunch all western
fighters in that bracket except for two. Gripen and F-16.

By Gripen, I mean mostly the actual block as the price of the NG
is still high around 65-70 M€ even if also cheaper to operate.
Sweden has used C/Ds on its hands, a lot of them from 48 to 58
to 96 depending on the scenario. If a new client got the newest
Gripen E, those would be cheap enough and sufficient for needs.

The only real certain deal remains the Falcon however, at this time.
US and even USAF F-16 to be precise! That fighter was produced
in amazing numbers and finding fixing, upgrading 48 low-life cells
can be done but only by the USAF that alone owns enough. The
relationship with America allows that choice for Indonesia.

Barring the above options and without reworking your numbers/goals,
it would necessarily fall to Eastern equipment ( China, Russia, SoKo ).

Have the best of days milady, Tay.

 

[pr1v4t33r]

$4.5 Billion for 48 unit viper was what proposed by Mattis in his visit. The need for 3 new sqn is there, but i don't believe Indonesia have the means to actually spend that sum of money. Most likely we'll look for cheaper option, either refurbished F-16 C/D or something equal.

 

[Taygibay]

Most likely we'll look for cheaper option, either refurbished F-16 or something equal.

Yup, what I said, so that some cash can go to
add. weapons as well as spares/maintenance.

Good day to you mate, Tay.

 

[Nike]

$4.5 Billion for 48 unit viper was what proposed by Mattis in his visit. The need for 3 new sqn is there, but i don't believe Indonesia have the means to actually spend that sum of money. Most likely we'll look for cheaper option, either refurbished F-16 C/D or something equal.

Its just matter of time Indonesia will be capable to spent more than 1.2 billion US dollar at weapons deal