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Indonesia stands up to China on Natuna Islands

Domestic consumption driven economy is a fake idea from propaganda machine. You go to work, you sell your time and labour. The only income for human, be it nations or group of human or individuals, is from sale. How can one believe to get rich by eating more and consuming more? profit=income-consumption. It is a math for grade 3 student.

I think you misunderstood the term "Domestic Consumption" driven economy. It doesn't mean the whole nation just consume without producing anything, it means that the nation consume mostly what it produced. That is, their economic growth depends mostly on the demand from domestic side. As long as domestic demands keep growing, industrial production will keep growing as well, and that translates into economic growth that shield itself from outside shock. That is good for everyone.

In fact, 47% of Indonesia GDP comes from manufacturing sector. That is comparable to China's 43% of GDP. The difference is that, most of Indonesia manufacturing output end up in domestic market. Indonesia only export what is left from that, mostly natural comodities that cannot be processed due to limited capacity at home. That's why in recent years, the government had tried to force mining companies to build more smelters in Indonesia by banning raw mineral export.

It was contrasted with "export" driven economy, where the nation produce more than what it can consume itself. It works well with countries that specializes in certain products such as Taiwan and Korea (electronics and semiconductors), Middle East (oil). But it will be a disaster if every big countries try to produce everything more than necessary. You cannot expect everyone to sell more and buy less, who will be the buyer? In the end, someone will lose more money. And in the case of China, it is USA and Europe who absorb most of excess products. That is why USA and most Europes has overall trade deficit. The USA and Europe could withstand such loses because their currencies are used as reserve in other countries. But what about other developing countries? That will create predatory economic trade relation where the stronger economy stalls and kills the industrial and economic growth of weaker/smaller countries. That is not good for everyone.

That is what happen to African countries. Despite their economy is domestic consumption driven, they don't have enough manufacturing sector to support it. Why? There are many factors, but one of them is exactly because their market was flooded with Chinese cheap export driven goods that there are no chance for them to develop their own manufacuring sectors.

The case with China where it produced everything from textiles, electronics, toys, machinery with export oriented goals is unsustainable. That is why Chinese government has tried to shift their economic policy to be more domestic oriented so that Chinese economy could continue growing.
 
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What can Indonesians afford? Not much, you don't have the per capita income to support it, even China at twice your per capita can barely support it.

Export driven growth is the only way to pull enough people out of poverty and make domestic consumption meaningful, African countries are mostly domestic consumption, doesn't mean anything other than they have nothing to export, not saying this is Indonesia, but there's two sides to every story, what might be good for US would not be good for others, if they are at different stages.

Per capita income does not have anything to do with domestic consumption driven economy. It simply means that the country produces mostly what it can consume.

For example, 47% of Indonesia GDP comes from manufacturing sector, comparable to that of China's 43% of GDP. China cannot support it solely from domestic demand, but Indonesia can with much larger portion. Why? Because China is producing more than it can consume (much of it goes to export), while Indonesia is producing as much as it can consume (little goes to export). It is not necessarily because the per capita income cannot afford them, it is just that the domestic demand isn't there. It has to do with cultural attitude.

If you compare Indonesians lifestyle with that of Chinese, you will know why Indonesia is domestic driven economy. I would say Indonesian are more willing to spend that an average Chinese with similar income.
 
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Domestic consumption driven economy is a fake idea from propaganda machine. You go to work, you sell your time and labour. The only income for human, be it nations or group of human or individuals, is from sale. How can one believe to get rich by eating more and consuming more? profit=income-consumption. It is a math for grade 3 student.

Maxtini post is a good one to inform you about our economy. But, this data is additional information from me about Indonesia's economy. Our manufacturing output is number 12 in the world in 2013, below Russia but higher than Mexico, and almost two times of Thailand's manufacturing output.

Manufacturing, value added (current US$) | Data | Table

Manufacturing, value added (current US$)
Manufacturing refers to industries belonging to ISIC divisions 15-37. Value added is the net output of a sector after adding up all outputs and subtracting intermediate inputs. It is calculated without making deductions for depreciation of fabricated assets or depletion and degradation of natural resources. The origin of value added is determined by the International Standard Industrial Classification (ISIC), revision 3. Data are in current U.S. dollars.
World Bank national accounts data, and OECD National Accounts data files.
 
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We are industrialize enough to make everything at home except some high end products like high end Micro processor, commercial jet airplane, steam turbine engine for Commercial ships, and stuff like that (but hey not any country in ASEAN can do that too). But not with energy to support our growth and to run our economics vehicles, we must import them from several african and middle eastern countries like Angola and Saudi Arabia.
 
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They already sank Thai boats, get better informed before you talk.
So what? Chinese boat never sunk. And vietnamese is the first to go. You have no respect from ASEAN becos you are nothing in the eyes of most. :lol:
 
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Chinese, Indonesian senior officials meet on economic cooperation
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Chinese State Councilor Yang Jiechi (R) and Indonesian Coordinating Minister for Economy Sofyan Djalil shake hands during the first meeting of China-Indonesia High-level Economic Dialogue in Beijing, capital of China, Jan. 26, 2015. The first meeting of China-Indonesia High-level Economic Dialogue was held in Beijing on Monday. (Xinhua/Wang Ye)

BEIJING, Jan. 26 (Xinhua) -- High-ranking officials from China and Indonesia held a high-level meeting in Beijing Monday to promote bilateral economic cooperation.

Chinese State Councilor Yang Jiechi and Indonesian Coordinating Minister for Economy Sofyan Djalil co-chaired the first meeting of China-Indonesia High-level Economic Dialogue.

Hailing significant results of bilateral cooperation in recent years, both sides agreed that there is an extensive strategic fit between President Xi Jinping's initiative of the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road and President Joko Widodo's proposal to build Indonesia a maritime power.

The initiative and proposal provide a broad space for the two sides to deepen pragmatic cooperation in various fields and promote the comprehensive strategic partnership.

Yang called on both sides to further expand scale of the two-way trade, better cooperation in major infrastructure, electric power and other areas so as to push forward bilateral cooperation in a win-win way.

Sofyan Djalil said Indonesia is ready to promote bilateral cooperation in investment, trade, infrastructure, special economic zone and other fields.

After the meeting, officials signed the minutes of the meeting and a letter of intent for cooperation on the power plant.
 
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If u guys wanna join TPP, VNese will be the first ones who strongly disagree. We dont wanna have any relationship with the nation that destroying our fishing boats.


So, that the only way for u guys to get USD when u guys r not allowed to join the TPP ??

It's up to Indonesia if we want to join or not, i don't think ordinary Vietnamese especially you will have any say on that matter.

US-ASEAN businessmen lobby Indonesia on TPP | The Jakarta Post
US businessmen grouped under the United States-ASEAN Business Council are seeking ways to access the Southeast Asian market, which has a population 620 million, through a Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP).

Feeling a great need to capitalize on the regional market that has a gross domestic product totaling US$2.2 trillion, the council released a policy paper last Wednesday to provide a number of policy recommendations, including calls for the completion of TPP negotiations by late this year, and for US and ASEAN governments and business sectors to develop two-way trade and investment.

During their three-day visit to Jakarta, council members and executives met with President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono in a likely attempt to lobby the Indonesian government to join the TPP.

The Indonesian government, which previously showed little interest in the US-led TPP, said in April that it would likely join TPP negotiations, if negotiations on the regional comprehensive economic partnership (RCEP) between ASEAN members and Australia, China, India, Japan, South Korea, New Zealand as well as Indonesia’s talks on a comprehensive partnership agreement with South Korea went well.
 
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ASEAN Foreign Ministers Expected To Discuss South China Sea Issue

By R. Ravichandran

KOTA KINABALU, Jan 26 (Bernama) -- ASEAN Foreign Ministers who will gather here for their retreat in the next two days, are expected to exchange views in the context of the implementation of the Declaration on the Conduct of Parties in the South China Sea (DOC), said Foreign Minister Datuk Seri Anifah Aman.

Anifah said besides that, the ministers were also expected to have consultation towards the establishment of the Code of Conduct in the South China Sea (COC).

"It is also possible that other related issues will be raised," he told a press conference here, Monday.

Anifah said this year with Malaysia as the chair of ASEAN, it was expected three Asean-China Joint Working Group on the DOC and one Asean-China Senior Officials Meeting on the DOC, would be held.

Asean member countries, and China signed the DOC in 2002, a fundamental document for maintaining peace and stability in the South China Sea.

In the declaration, among others, the parties concerned reaffirmed that the adoption of a code of conduct in the South China Sea would further promote peace and stability in the region and agreed to work, on the basis of consensus, towards the eventual attainment of this objective.

Kuala Lumpur had emphasised the need to expeditiously work towards an early conclusion of the Code of Conduct in the South China Sea.

In June last year, Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak had said that the rule of law must reign supreme in resolving issues in the South China Sea.

The 10 Asean members comprise Cambodia, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar, the Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, Brunei and Vietnam.

China and its Asean partners, Malaysia, the Philippines, Vietnam and Brunei have disputes on the overlapping territorial claims in the South China Sea.

On its part, China had said that it was always ready to solve the disputes through dialogues and direct negotiations.

-- BERNAMA
 
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A Single Niceguy can't make the policy, I think !!!!

AEC would be created soon.

Yup, it's just funny how some member tries to twist the reality to suit their imagination. While in real world thing is completely the opposite of what they are suggesting. Beside soon to be AEC, we are also getting closer to each other with visa and open skies ASEAN agreement.
 
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It's now official we won.

Et tu, Jakarta?

By Miles Yu - - Thursday, November 19, 2015

In a rare move to avoid further isolation in a region where it has territorial disputes with nearly all of its maritime neighbors, China made a major concession last week by publicly clarifying and acknowledging Indonesia’s sovereign right to the Natuna Islands in the South China Sea.

The region has been witnessing a dramatic rise of tensions since January, when China began a massive sand-pumping project to greatly expand the tiny isles of Mischief Reef and Subi Island in the Spratly Islands chain in the South China Sea.

The Natuna Islands chain, which sits between the northwestern tip of Indonesia on the island of Borneo and the southern tip of Vietnam, consists of about 270 islands that form part of Indonesia’s Riau Islands Province with some 70,000 residents

On Nov. 12, China shocked the countries in the region by issuing a first-ever public statement on the Natuna Islands. According to Hong Lei,China’s Foreign Ministry spokesman, “The Indonesian side has no territorial claim to China’s [Spratly Islands]. The Chinese side has no objection to Indonesia’s sovereignty over the Natuna Islands.”

This is significant because, although the Natuna Islands are outside ofChina’s self-designated “Nine-Dash-Line” that lays claim to virtually all of the South China Sea, Natuna’s 200-miles exclusive economic zone (EEZ) protrudes into the area defined by the Nine-Dash-Line. To publicly recognize Indonesia’s sovereign right to the Natunas means China’s acknowledgment of Indonesia’s legitimate claim to an EEZ inside China’s self-claimed Nine-Dash-Line.

And this is not something that China has been willing to do, partly because of the inexact nature of the so-called Nine-Dash-Line and partly because China does not want to show weakness to its smaller neighbors who challenge its maritime claims. Beijing’s failure to clarify with Indonesia the competing claims on the Natuna Islands and the EEZ lies at the root of the angst felt by Jakarta for decades.

Traditionally, Indonesian officials have preferred low-key diplomacy with China on the Natuna situation. And China needs Indonesia, too, as the largest and weightiest country in the ASEAN bloc where four members — the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia and Brunei — openly dispute China’s maritime claims.

Several past Indonesian leaders have said they received private assurances from China that, since the two countries do not have an island dispute inside the Nine-Dash-Line, China would not dispute Jakarta’s sovereignty over the Natuna Islands. But Beijing has deliberately avoided public discussion of the EEZ issue, which fueled doubts for many in Jakarta over Beijing’s sincerity in those private assurances. Some argued that China was pursuing a Fabian strategy to wear Indonesia down so that the EEZ issue would eventually evaporate.

But Beijing misread Jakarta, because Indonesia seems to have grown increasingly impatient with Beijing’s strategic ambiguity on the EEZ situation.

To make things worse, China began its massive sand-pumping project to reclaim and augment small islands in the Spratly’s chain, further angering not only Vietnam and the Philippines, but also Japan, Australia, the United States and Indonesia. The maritime waters just north of the Natuna Islands have suddenly become the potential flash point of a general war involving the navies of several of the world’s most powerful nations.

The Philippines has been among the most tenacious challengers to China’s ambitions in the South China Sea, having brought Beijing to an international arbitration court in The Hague, where the ruling in favor of Manila is widely expected.

China has been irate over the lawsuit. The official Chinese media has lambasted Manila and the government has emphatically refused to participate in any legal challenge. Last month, however, the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague ruled against Beijing’s attempt to deny the court’s jurisdiction over the matter.

Frustrated by China’s refusal for a clarification and inspired by the Philippine success in The Hague, Jakarta decided to play hardball with Beijing, too.

Under the newly elected President Joko Widodo, Indonesia has stepped up military fortifications on the Natuna Islands. Weeks ago, he ordered more Su-27, Su-30, and F-16 fighter planes and P3-C maritime surveillance and anti-submarine aircraft to the islands, adding more troops to the military base there to demonstrate Indonesia’s resolve to protect its territory and the EEZ areas around the Natunas.

Then, on Nov. 11, Jakarta dropped a bombshell on Beijing. The Indonesian security chief Luhut Panjaitan told reporters that if dialogue with China on the Natuna islands did not yield any result soon, Indonesia might follow the footsteps of the Philippines and bring China to the international arbitration court for a clarification.

The next day, China’s Foreign Ministry spokesman Mr. Hong made history by finally, and openly, announcing China’s willingness to accept Indonesia’s sovereign claim to the Natuna Islands.

Mr. Hong did not mention anything in his statement about the Nine-Dash-Line or the Natunas’ EEZ. But he did not have to, because as long as China acknowledges Indonesia’s claim, the waters within 200 nautical miles automatically fall into the range, potentially challenging the legitimacy of China’s vague Nine-Dash-Line.

• Miles Yu’s column appears Fridays. He can be reached at mmilesyu@gmail.com and @Yu_miles.
Inside China: China clarifies Natuna Islands sovereignty to Indonesia - Washington Times


Source: Indonesia Military News & Discussion Thread | Page 478
 
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China has no problem with Natuna island as we all know, just Natuna EEZ, thats why the source person doesnt want to mention that EEZ.

The rest is just writer interpretation.

Mr. Hong did not mention anything in his statement about the Nine-Dash-Line or the Natunas’ EEZ. But he did not have to, because as long as China acknowledges Indonesia’s claim, the waters within 200 nautical miles automatically fall into the range, potentially challenging the legitimacy of China’s vague Nine-Dash-Line.

Source: Indonesia stands up to China on Natuna Islands | Page 6
 
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I think we should not rejoice anout this news. In this world only the strong one will prevail and can dictate his interst toward other, indeed we must taking much more precaution measure and make our military much more stronger accompanied by a muçh larger economy muscles.
 
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