Indonesia may see more sharia-based laws

[gambit]

Only an idiot would accept a celebrity as thier better.

Similarly only an idiot would accept a cleric as his better.

And there are no idiots at all in the Muslim community. Is that what you are telling us?

Shows the success of Islam on ideological level (forgetting the negatives or positives debate)---no?

Fact of the matter is that Islam has, uptil now, successfully defeated liberal-secularism on global level literally everywhere both giant ideologies/lifestyles came in contact with.

Secularism is one end of the spectrum. Theocracy is the other.

What this mean is that in order to preserve that perception that Islam managed to 'defeat' secularism, every Muslim dominated country must become functional theocracies.

 

[hussain0216]

Certainly, but Islam is not content in staying in any single country, that it seeks to expand and convert others. And when it grows to a significant size, then it'll demand it's law be enforced on the rest of the population. And you are wondering why is such religion not welcomed elsewhere.

Arent you imposing your communist crazyness against peoples individual freedoms?

Isnt communism largely defunct now?

Arent chinese viewed with suspicion?

Islam is a worldwide faith, if you can force communism ideology on people thrn they can force their islamic identity on their country abd shouldnt minorities accept the will of the majority?

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Certainly, but Islam is not content in staying in any single country, that it seeks to expand and convert others. And when it grows to a significant size, then it'll demand it's law be enforced on the rest of the population. And you are wondering why is such religion not welcomed elsewhere.

If majority of a people accept Islam and follow it, what problem is it to you?

Do you ascribe to Henry Kissinger’s doctrine of “We must prevent a country going Communist due to the irresponsibility of its people?”

What did the US gain from attacking Vietnam and Cambodia? Or sanctioning Cuba?

 

[T-123456]

Shia Islam is like what? 10% of global Islam, and I am not even going to argue bc I am not Shia.

Secondly, lineage means nothing in Islam. Yes, people can claim higher status in social hierarchy but not by bloondlines or divine rights. Only by personal effort and achievement (whether in civil realm or the religious).

Anyways...thanks for the response.



True that. There's no "christian" or "hindu" or "buddhist" countries in the world anymore. Secular-liberalism destroyed every other religion except Islam. There are only Islamic countries remaining on global level (From Algeria to Saudi Arabia to Nigeria (Muslim states) to Indonesia to Pakistan etc etc))

Shows the success of Islam on ideological level (forgetting the negatives or positives debate)---no?

Fact of the matter is that Islam has, uptil now, successfully defeated liberal-secularism on global level literally everywhere both giant ideologies/lifestyles came in contact with. The ONLY religious-cultural force to have done so successfully. Even rich, well-off Muslim societies (GCC, Malaysia, Turkey etc) are very practicing of Islam and Islam plays a central role in these countries' politics, laws, family life, social values, public sphere, and so on. Forget the gigantic Islamic world, even Muslims throughout the Western world...the heart of secular liberalism and free conscience--are relatively still very religious despite being highly educated, urbanized, integrated, and wealthy (example U.S Muslims).

Christianity/Judaism/Hindusim etc were easy...secularism/liberalism ran over them and made them pretty much irrelevant...but Islam, as I said, absolutely decimated liberal-secularism everywhere it faced. Hell, even in countries that were liberal/secular before, Islam changed the entire face of culture and lifestyle within a generation after decolonization. In Turkey, where secularism was actually forced down---Islam eventually won out and gain public prominence slowly....

(Note: I know Turkey is "liberal" compared to Pakistan and so on. Variations within global Islam exist, as to be expected---but relative to non-Muslims---my post stands factual and unchallenged).



I know more about Indonesian than you. Trust me....

Lived there for four years, know TONS of people from there...

I am very familiar with Indonesian flavor of Islam. They are not liberal-seculars like Frenchmen or even Americans or Latin Americans. A vast majority of Indonesians are traditional Muslims just like vast majority of people in Pakistan, Turkey, Egypt etc etc are your average Muslims. Not fanatics but not liberals either.

What do YOU know about Indonesia? I bet you have never even visited Bali, let alone living in real Indonesia.

Indonesian political system is rooted in "religious nationalism" as one scholar of political science working with us called it. Its not a "secular" country....

Google stats on Indonesians' views on various issues before you write more empty rhetoric. I don't want to spoon feed you

For a starter: 72% of Indonesians support making Shari'ah/Quran the official law of the land

This is PEW's survey for 2013-14....and Indonesian society have only became more Islamic since then. And this is not a random stat either. Survey after survey, study after study, research paper after research paper----all reveal the same pattern. An Islamic country with deeply religious Islamic society and culture

"BuT fOrGeT FAcTs!!! YOu DoNT KnOW AnyThiNg. InDonEsIa is SecUlaRRRR!!!" says dumb liberals trying to hide facts for their own personal agendas (not you per say---but many "Indonesians" on this thread )

Indonesia already has more than 442 legal ordinances inspired by Shari'ah implemented throughout the country (Not just Aceh).



https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/12/world/asia/indonesia-sharia-law-aceh.html

Liberals think Shari'ah is like ISIS type butchery. And hence liberals ALWAYS keep losing since they dont even understand what they are arguing against.

First,you are a disrespecful idiot.
I live in the Netherlands,have many Indonesian friends Muslims and Christians(big diaspora),i did an Indonesian martial art when i was young(penchak silat)if you go to their houses,no matter what time,there is always a pot of rice with fish,chicken or meat.
They have cultural centres with many activities every month.
Turks and Indonesians are very close in the Netherlands.
The first time i went to Indonesia was in 1989 with Garuda(Indonesian Airlines),went to Jakarta and Medan with my Indonesian friend(he went back for good,actor in film industry) from the Netherlands,met his family(all Muslims) and made many friends,stayed a month.
The second time was in 1996,also a month,first in Bali a week and the rest in Jakarta with my then girlfriends family,her father was a colonel (kolonel) in the Air Force(many priviliges).
I used to speak some Indonesian,my favorite word is ''makan''.
Indonesian food is the best food in the world.
Indonesian people are friendly nice people minding their own business,never wanted sharia or any other bs,this sharia bs started with outside influence,Muslim clerics sent by Egypt and KSA,they ruined the countries cultural identity.
So next time you open your big mouth,know the person you're dealing with.

 

[313ghazi]

And there are no idiots at all in the Muslim community. Is that what you are telling us?


Secularism is one end of the spectrum. Theocracy is the other.

What this mean is that in order to preserve that perception that Islam managed to 'defeat' secularism, every Muslim dominated country must become functional theocracies.

Are you suggesting i define my community by the idiots? Where would that leave 'muricans?

 

[Pakistani E]

It’s called putting Pakistan first. Concentrating on our economy.
Trying not to be the world police or judge.

When we become something, then we can have a say.

Keep your head down and work hard. It’s the model set by China and Turkey.

Agreed. Maybe more of our countrymen on this thread should concentrate on this message.

 

[nufix]

W

Literally the dumbest shit I ever read.

Lived in Saudi Arabia. Liked it pretty much.

Mobility is an economic issue, not a cultural ones. There are millions of Westerners living in Gulf, Malaysia and other parts of the world. Do they not like their “western culture” and hence settled in Sharia ruled Muslim countries?

Oh yeah, never mind...it’s all about the economic and career prospects. Same goes for Muslims.

Stop this idiotic cliche bullshit. Overwhelming majority of Muslims globally support Sharia....including more than 2/3 of Indonesian Muslims. Your bitching won’t change that, would it? Lol

Lol your flag is showing australian flag, you dumb or sumthn?

Anyway, read again before you bitch around about shariah. Indonesian muslims that agree on the implementation of the shariah law mostly are in favor for selective implementation. Moreover, most of them are more comfortable applying them in their family lives.

"The study also found that Muslims, especially in Indonesia, are generally more comfortable with applying Shariah to their family lives than in the public sphere."

https://jakartaglobe.id/news/seventy-two-percent-of-indonesians-favor-shariah-law-pew-forum/

Furthermore, the results have been questioned by local institute:

Ismail Hasani, a senior researcher at the Setara Institute for Democracy and Peace, was skeptical of the results of the Pew Forum's survey.

He said that although the survey was conducted by a prestigious organization, he believed that it might not actually represent the true opinions of Indonesians.

By his count, Ismail predicted that if a domestic survey was taken, no more than half of Indonesians would advocate for the implementation of Shariah Law

Islam taught us to read first. You didnt read right? LOL

 

[AUz]

Secularism is one end of the spectrum. Theocracy is the other.

What this mean is that in order to preserve that perception that Islam managed to 'defeat' secularism, every Muslim dominated country must become functional theocracies.

As I said, Muslims have never seen their statehood as “theocracy”....Muslim countries, even though functionally Islamic (as you rightly stated), are not theocracies. Even the concept of Caliphate is not what you call a “theocracy”....

Even the “secular” and “liberal” Muslim societies like Turkey etc remains deeply Islamic societies in character, societal norms, and functionality.....unlike any other non-Muslim states out there.

Turkey, in essence, is more ‘Islamic’ than india is Hindu....let alone any “Christian” country (christianity is pretty much a defeated, relevant force of past...just like every other religion out there except Islam).

Muslims don’t care about preservation of any perception. Islamic societies are organically practicing, FAR more practicing, of Islam than non-Muslim countries/populations are of their respective majority religions...

Titles mean little. If tomorrow, Pakistan is declared as a “secular” state...nothing much changes on the ground, people’s values, Islam’s central role in societal norms etc etc. That’s why I’m against the so called secularists in Pak. Declaring Pak Islamic or Secular in constitution means little. We remain the same society as before....with same ills/drawbacks and same positives..

 

[gambit]

Are you suggesting i define my community by the idiots? Where would that leave 'muricans?

Not at all. But what you must understand is that perception -- internal and external -- of your community is a composite of many factors, and a dominant component will form the basis of that perception even though perceptions continuously evolves. Further, you have no control over how others define your community, fairly or unfairly, and that definition/perception of your community highly influences relations.

 

[313ghazi]

Not at all. But what you must understand is that perception -- internal and external -- of your community is a composite of many factors, and a dominant component will form the basis of that perception even though perceptions continuously evolves. Further, you have no control over how others define your community, fairly or unfairly, and that definition/perception of your community highly influences relations.

Well would you look at that. A sensible end to a discussion on PDF.

Tbh I can see where your coming from. It's the same reason there are Muslims on this thread (and around the world) opposed to the implementation of Shariah law. Our current clergy do have a sense of self importance and they do have a small hardcore of lemming Fanboys.

If Muslims are interested in the implementation of Shariah and governance by its principles (like I am), then its up to us to take ownership of our religion as it was designed to be, out of the hands of a self anointed clergy and look to see if it is possible to implement shariah objectively and how to transition it in. This needs intellectual discourse which must include experts in law, economics, governance, sociology not clerics alone. Frankly I'm not sure we even have the trained people at hand to have this conversation.

The big bang style implementation some hope for just won't work, the world has changed and although the values of the shariah are eternal, the human implementation is not. This is why the Ottomans had the Qanoon.

 

[katarabhumi]

Prabowo working hard. I hope Jokowi suffers defeat next time.

FYI Prabowo is the only "muslim" in his big family. He comes from Chinese-Christian family. His father was Indonesian-chinese. He converted to Islam in 1983 only to marry Suharto's daughter. Even until now, people still doubt his Islam because he was almost never seen doing Salah, let alone lead one as an imam. He can't pronounce simple Arabic right. A photo and video went viral last month showing he attend Christmas mass and celebrate with his family.

Prabowo supporters are trying hard to conceal these facts and pinned them on Jokowi instead to defame him.

Now, a group of clerics from Aceh has formally asked the two presidential candidate to do a Quran reading test. Only Jokowi says no problem and accept, Prabowo declines. Why so?

There is also a video of Prabowo saying he is a great admirer of western value and the only way for Indonesia to move forward is by embracing westernization. Do you think a guy like him will fight for Shariah implementation?

.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

As I said, Muslims have never seen their statehood as “theocracy”....Muslim countries, even though functionally Islamic (as you rightly stated), are not theocracies. Even the concept of Caliphate is not what you call a “theocracy”....

Even the “secular” and “liberal” Muslim societies like Turkey etc remains deeply Islamic societies in character, societal norms, and functionality.....unlike any other non-Muslim states out there.

Turkey, in essence, is more ‘Islamic’ than india is Hindu....let alone any “Christian” country (christianity is pretty much a defeated, relevant force of past...just like every other religion out there except Islam).

Muslims don’t care about preservation of any perception. Islamic societies are organically practicing, FAR more practicing, of Islam than non-Muslim countries/populations are of their respective majority religions...

Titles mean little. If tomorrow, Pakistan is declared as a “secular” state...nothing much changes on the ground, people’s values, Islam’s central role in societal norms etc etc. That’s why I’m against the so called secularists in Pak. Declaring Pak Islamic or Secular in constitution means little. We remain the same society as before....with same ills/drawbacks and same positives..

I think a return to the core of Islam is better than emulating modernism.

 

[Zsari]

If majority of a people accept Islam and follow it, what problem is it to you?

Any individual accepting and following any religion in their own personnel realm is never a problem, but enforcing religious code onto those that does not accept that said religion is.

Arent you imposing your communist crazyness against peoples individual freedoms?

Isnt communism largely defunct now?

Arent chinese viewed with suspicion?

Islam is a worldwide faith, if you can force communism ideology on people thrn they can force their islamic identity on their country abd shouldnt minorities accept the will of the majority?

Communism manifesto was exactly the reason why it was seen as a menace in 50's & 60's. Today's China has no interest in spreading communism, nor is itself a communist state.

You can insists on spreading your religious code, but do expect others to see you as a threat, and take measures to eliminate your religion within their border as that is also enforcing the majority will onto the minority there, which you proclaim to be just.

 

[Persian Gulf 1906]

Shame for Indonesia and Indonesians.

But if Indonesians support this then who am I to tell them how to run their country.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Any individual accepting and following any religion in their own personnel realm is never a problem, but enforcing religious code onto those that does not accept that said religion is.

There will always be difference of opinions. Why stop at religion?

If some of your society want Buddhist China instead of Communism, then you have to listen to them right, according to your logic?

You definition is arbitrary and out of touch with reality.

Muslims will always move towards Islam, this is why we are called Muslims in the first place.