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I'm aware it's political suicide, but really all of the things TNI wants ToT for (IRST, FLIR, optronics, seeker tech, etc.) is stuff that Israel is more than willing to give to people for the right price; their entire economy relies on their defense industry.

Even China gets most of their missile technology from them.
Agree, too bad GusDur lengser before he could make the formal bilateral trade agreemant with them.

This is why I'm waiting for holding BUMN industri pertahanan. Hopefully it will make the pace much faster.
Oh man dont raise your hope too high for our BUMN, it will take a decade or two to make them able to compete and exceed on what they do. Even the last colleague encounter with state owned cellular company showed how bad their way of doing business internally and how the people in their higher up rank think mostly on short term benefit just so the annual report can shine and they got good score from their big boss. Garuda youtube incident where their asosiasi karyawan file charges without permission nor even coordination with their own management is only the tip of iceberg I assume. Created by decades of missuse, miss manage, too close to politics, being sapi perah, posisi komisaris utk posisi tanda terima kasih dari favour politik, monopoly etc. Not all bumn is like that but just dont expect too much for now. I hope our future inhan holding will not becoming rosobo rusky :D
 
Ada yg mau ganyang ini Arab bahlul, biasa Arab kalau udah liberalist lebih kaco dr Yahud
Itu orang banyak masalah kayaknya di hidupnya, model yg nyalahin orang mulu gitu loh sis. Bukan bahlul itu tp org stress :D
 
That i don't know but when i get the infos, i'll share to the forum

Screenshot_2019-09-05-19-10-22-1.png

https://www.marvintest.com/News/Article.aspx?ID=1261
 
Agree, too bad GusDur lengser before he could make the formal bilateral trade agreemant with them.


Oh man dont raise your hope too high for our BUMN, it will take a decade or two to make them able to compete and exceed on what they do. Even the last colleague encounter with state owned cellular company showed how bad their way of doing business internally and how the people in their higher up rank think mostly on short term benefit just so the annual report can shine and they got good score from their big boss. Garuda youtube incident where their asosiasi karyawan file charges without permission nor even coordination with their own management is only the tip of iceberg I assume. Created by decades of missuse, miss manage, too close to politics, being sapi perah, posisi komisaris utk posisi tanda terima kasih dari favour politik, monopoly etc. Not all bumn is like that but just dont expect too much for now. I hope our future inhan holding will not becoming rosobo rusky :D

One thing people really need to understand is that SOEs are pretty much in every sector of the economy, in 2017 our GDP was slightly above 13 Quadrillion Rupiah (13 ribu T), and of that, just the SOE income was 2 Quadrillion. If you add their indirect impact from employees, subsidiaries and sub-subsidieries, at least a third of the Indonesian economy is either directly represented or linked to SOEs.

As such, it need to be pointed out that the SOEs are a mixed, mixed bag.

Note that I'm not arguing with you Gundala, I just want to rant a bit because I need to put up with blind anti-BUMN rhetoric way too much at work.

I know SOEs in the some sectors, like plantations and agriculture (perkebunan) is downright feudal. Others, such as in the Reinsurance sectors, are not only the biggest players in the market, but are also the most professional, leaving private & conglomerate owned competitors in the dust.

Even private companies have a lot of bad apples, the Bakrie conglomerate and its legendary mismanagement and inefficiency as the most prominent example. So yes they have issues, yes there is corruption, and yes there are inefficiencies. Despite that, I hope everyone can take a step back and realise that the private sector is plague by the same bloody problems, at least SOEs don't just pay taxes, but also pays dividends to the Government, and is much, much, more reliable in executing state policy that the private sector is.

I hear so often that the property/engineering sector is becoming dominated by SOEs. True and there's bloody good reason, way too much of state infrastructure projects basically languished away when in private hands, Becakayu Toll road for example. The SOEs took up the task and delivered damn it, we actually have the infrastructure to show for it. Now many developers trust SOE construction companies more than private ones simply because the SOEs are more experienced, professional, and able to handle large projects.

Look at the American military industrial complex... or the conglomerate lobbies that plague nearly every 1st world country. Private is not equal to honest. Not equal to efficient. Not equal to innovative. Even in an ideal world, SOEs will never be quite as good as private companies in generating profits because they have objective 2: Assist state policy.

Indonesia's SOEs, flawed as they are, have overall delivered on objective 1 & 2 at the same time. The Construction SOEs have lead the infrastructure push despite dealing with rapid expansion of... everything. The Banking SOEs have managed to push the GPN card to a third of all debit cards nationally despite initial strong resistance from Visa and Mastercard. They are also the companies that are pioneering our rejuvenated economic influence in Africa. Their profit has also increased to 200 Trillion IDR in 2018, a nearly 40% increase in only 4 years.

As such, yes, our SOEs aren't perfect. But lets not be pessimistic to their potential and blind to the good they've already done for Indonesia.

-END RANT-
 
One thing people really need to understand is that SOEs are pretty much in every sector of the economy
This is true, they are so big and sometime too big for private sector to compete thus killing the competition and the private sector itself in the process.

Note that I'm not arguing with you Gundala, I just want to rant a bit because I need to put up with blind anti-BUMN rhetoric way too much at work.
I understand man no worry no pun taken, its just a discussion and lay out different perspective and hope we all can learn something from it.

Even private companies have a lot of bad apples
Yes totally true, most of them even dont have the ability nor experience to handle the job they have, yet they are winning. In fact large portion of private company still feed from govt project.

way too much of state infrastructure projects basically languished away when in private hands
Yup, to be honest I dont see any private sector can handle infrastructure project either financially or politically. SOE can perform due to political will of the president, professionality of mentri pupr and state financial back up (direct or indirect). Have you ever seen how pembebasan lahan goes when it handled by swasta? Kereta cepat at one area they didnt get the IMB because one Bupati wanted them to build road as price for issuing IMB? Sound silly and weird but thats one of the fact. But since they are backed up by bumn they proceed anyway. If its private? we can all guess how it will come out.

They are also the companies that are pioneering our rejuvenated economic influence in Africa. Their profit has also increased to 200 Trillion IDR in 2018, a nearly 40% increase in only 4 years.
They can afford it and they can add political influence to break the boundary. As for private sector? They can only dream of it. Not to mention all ASN/PNS are mostly have account opened at the bumn bank automatically for their salary right? No advertisement needed at some point to get prospective account, captive market?

Im not anti bumn, they have contribute alot and pioneering alot where private sector couldnt but at some point we have to evaluate the trade off. Head to head with the relatively the same size and no monopoly there is no way bumn can compete with swasta period. Selling bumn assets needs approval from kemenkeu right? If you are in it you know how it is and how hard it is to sell or write off assets. How can they have the agility to dance financially then? But it is what it is, some ugly truth we all have to see at some point so we can have better planning and wise step in a future.

I stop here cuz its suppose to be in economic forum, but thank you for great discussion :D
 
The blueprints of KRI Fatahillah said not only for the hull but the electronic subsystems in Dutch & French, enough for us to rebuild and modernised. While U-209 Atlas CMS source codes has been digitalised stored in computer; documents for Exocet mm38 are said to be barely read though it's in huge box and even many don't aware its existence. Idk how many more documents such as these being stored unopened but these are valuable.
Senior said because in the 90's we switch to germany and harpoon, it is a common practice to switch defends consultant or contractors in those years back, 'kick back' thing, something like that

And also navy in those years is not the biggest budget user in all army branch
 
Senior said because in the 90's we switch to germany and harpoon, it is a common practice to switch defends consultant or contractors in those years back, 'kick back' thing, something like that

And also navy in those years is not the biggest budget user in all army branch
i'm curious though on what we are planning with all these old yet resource full documents
 
i'm curious though on what we are planning with all these old yet resource full documents
Make them basic design for OPV maybe

But I dont know junior enginer or designer now a day willing to study it, because fresh enginer ussually focus on relatively new design

In every 10 years usually new concept or design appear and another 10 years for build and trial, industrial cycle for ship renewing. Countries or navy usualy begin to study a new procurement in 10-15 years cycle, and so industrial should ready to renew their design or tech in those tempo

Some said its innovative
 
Kesel sumpah jadi kaya yang gak komit sama sekali, apapun wacana dan narasi nya...

Mau commit gimana boss kalau industri pendukung nya belum siap (baca : kalau sudah ada). Saya yakin kita bisa commit kalau industri pendukung udah siap. Untuk 20 tahun kedepan pun kita pasti tetap perlu import segala komponen yg terkait semi-conductor dan mesin turbine (turbine blade nya) karna kita ga punya industri nya
 
Make them basic design for OPV maybe

But I dont know junior enginer or designer now a day willing to study it, because fresh enginer ussually focus on relatively new design

In every 10 years usually new concept or design appear and another 10 years for build and trial, industrial cycle for ship renewing. Countries or navy usualy begin to study a new procurement in 10-15 years cycle, and so industrial should ready to renew their design or tech in those tempo

Some said its innovative

Agree... there's really not much point trying to replicate something from old blueprints (unless we are really desperate), at most we can learn the basic idea or architecture of the design for some reverse engineering.. but trying to build it as designed in the blueprint is probably close to impossible.. At best we can only get to make the shell (hull/structure/frame).. This is simply because the tech, parts, suppliers, vendors that were detailed in these old blueprints are likely no longer in production, or even exist today... It will be like trying to build an old i486 PC today, we can build the casing and power supply, but no one is making the processor, RAM, chipsets, etc for these models anymore...

And if for some miracle we did succeed in building it as designed in the blueprint, we'll only end up with an obsolete product...
 
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