Indonesia Defence Forum

[HellFireIndo]

Ground support aircraft like Raytheon sentinel or JSTARS will be good for our ground units

Their price tags tho, all above 200 million USD apiece, very expensive and we still don't have the need to procure them. It's better to allocate that amount of money to buy more armored vehicles and equipments for the army, and to modernize the army to it's ideal strenght. Only then, procuring ground support surveillance like the Sentinel and J-STARS could make sense. Is there any aircraft capable to support the Army in Papua? something with thermal imagery capability/ anything which could detect and identify OPMs hiding in bushes and trees? could be very useful and could prevent further casualty for the security forces? (or J-Stars itself could be used for this task?).

 

[Jatosint]

Their price tags tho, all above 200 million USD apiece, very expensive and we still don't have the need to procure them. It's better to allocate that amount of money to buy more armored vehicles and equipments for the army, and to modernize the army to it's ideal strenght. Only then, procuring ground support surveillance like the Sentinel and J-STARS could make sense. Is there any aircraft capable to support the Army in Papua? something with thermal imagery capability/ anything which could detect and identify OPMs hiding in bushes and trees? could be very useful and could prevent further casualty for the security forces? (or J-Stars itself could be used for this task?).

Our Super Tucano and Apache have both FLIR and CAS Capability but I don't really know how effective FLIR is when used in thick forest.

But I doubt that the government will use any 'heavier' flying asset than our transport helicopters (Bell/Mi-17/etc) that are already deployed in Papua since the government always seems hesitant to totally eliminate OPM. Human rights concern perhaps?

 

[Nike]

Their price tags tho, all above 200 million USD apiece, very expensive and we still don't have the need to procure them. It's better to allocate that amount of money to buy more armored vehicles and equipments for the army, and to modernize the army to it's ideal strenght. Only then, procuring ground support surveillance like the Sentinel and J-STARS could make sense. Is there any aircraft capable to support the Army in Papua? something with thermal imagery capability/ anything which could detect and identify OPMs hiding in bushes and trees? could be very useful and could prevent further casualty for the security forces? (or J-Stars itself could be used for this task?).

You know what, RAF is mulling to retiring early of their sentinel R1, trying to look at them is not bringing any harm as sentinel is in compliance with NATO standard and still got a lot of life time for their airframe and electronic units

 

[Svantana]

http://www.angkasareview.com/2019/0...-gelar-ranpur-dan-senjata-unggulan-buatannya/

 

[HellFireIndo]

Our Super Tucano and Apache have both FLIR and CAS Capability but I don't really know how effective FLIR is when used in thick forest.

But I doubt that the government will use any 'heavier' flying asset than our transport helicopters (Bell/Mi-17/etc) that are already deployed in Papua since the government always seems hesitant to totally eliminate OPM. Human rights concern perhaps?

FLIR cameras can only be used effectively if we know for certain the general area where they hide, and the problem is, we don't for most of the time. Some OPMs hides among civilians, and some hides in the mountains and forests (mostly the armed one). Other than try convincing them to surrender, sometimes we also need to be more proactive yet stealthy at the same time, a military action to force the remaining stubborn OPMs to surrender or just be "neutralized", yet we also have to be stealthy with it, as large scale hunting parties attracts too much attention and unnecessary propaganda material for the Aussies to exploit, like the late murder of bridge workers, the OPMs still want to portray themselves as the victim by showing pictures of smoke bomb shells as "chemical weapon" and photo of a raw burned corpse of OPM as "chemical weapon victim".

So, we need to be able to neutralize them one by one using small raiding parties, and such level of precision needs a dedicated surveillance aircrafts' support, preferably one that able to track bodily heat (thermal) even behind thick woods and tree shades. I don't know if Tucano FLIR camera would be enough for surveillance task like this (and we wont use Apaches in Papua for obvious reasons), but TNI itself never tried to station any suitable aircraft in Papua to counter the OPMs, they only stations transport helis and rely on infantry alone to search and neutralize the OPM, they hesitated to use more "advanced measures" like what you said about "human rights corcern". So i think if we use unarmed, dedicated ground surveillance with more powerful radar to scan the area, i think they won't have any argument against TNI's measures, it will be different as if we use Tucano, we will be accused of "bombing villages" with "chemical weapon" (we already accused of this since Timor Timur with the Bronco), and with the Apache's overkill, yes. But if we use the like Sentinel or Joint-STARS? they can't accuse us of anything as it simply a jet flying over the area, but we can't use the Sentinel for this tho, as it was from Aussie's Godmother Britain and they are just the same with them with the "human rights" and the "holier-than-thou" attitude.

You know what, RAF is mulling to retiring early of their sentinel R1, trying to look at them is not bringing any harm as sentinel is in compliance with NATO standard and still got a lot of life time for their airframe and electronic units

I'm kinda interested in this ground surveillance aircraft, could be a valuable asset (other than the issue with price and availability) for future threats. But, the problem is that, it's a British aircraft, one of their favorite even, and from our past experience, they are even worse (or better!) that the Americans in the field of embargo. Not even the shitty Scorpion light tank was allowed to be used in Aceh and we were charged higher for some Hawk jets AND the Scorpion (where it should be Challenger, not Scorpion, f*ck Tutut), worst arms supplier in terms of service, as they treat you as if you are borrowing the product, not as a dignified customer buying the product in real money.

 

[Nike]

FLIR cameras can only be used effectively if we know for certain the general area where they hide, and the problem is, we don't for most of the time. Some OPMs hides among civilians, and some hides in the mountains and forests (mostly the armed one). Other than try convincing them to surrender, sometimes we also need to be more proactive yet stealthy at the same time, a military action to force the remaining stubborn OPMs to surrender or just be "neutralized", yet we also have to be stealthy with it, as large scale hunting parties attracts too much attention and unnecessary propaganda material for the Aussies to exploit, like the late murder of bridge workers, the OPMs still want to portray themselves as the victim by showing pictures of smoke bomb shells as "chemical weapon" and photo of a raw burned corpse of OPM as "chemical weapon victim".

So, we need to be able to neutralize them one by one using small raiding parties, and such level of precision needs a dedicated surveillance aircrafts' support, preferably one that able to track bodily heat (thermal) even behind thick woods and tree shades. I don't know if Tucano FLIR camera would be enough for surveillance task like this (and we wont use Apaches in Papua for obvious reasons), but TNI itself never tried to station any suitable aircraft in Papua to counter the OPMs, they only stations transport helis and rely on infantry alone to search and neutralize the OPM, they hesitated to use more "advanced measures" like what you said about "human rights corcern". So i think if we use unarmed, dedicated ground surveillance with more powerful radar to scan the area, i think they won't have any argument against TNI's measures, it will be different as if we use Tucano, we will be accused of "bombing villages" with "chemical weapon" (we already accused of this since Timor Timur with the Bronco), and with the Apache's overkill, yes. But if we use the like Sentinel or Joint-STARS? they can't accuse us of anything as it simply a jet flying over the area, but we can't use the Sentinel for this tho, as it was from Aussie's Godmother Britain and they are just the same with them with the "human rights" and the "holier-than-thou" attitude.



I'm kinda interested in this ground surveillance aircraft, could be a valuable asset (other than the issue with price and availability) for future threats. But, the problem is that, it's a British aircraft, one of their favorite even, and from our past experience, they are even worse (or better!) that the Americans in the field of embargo. Not even the shitty Scorpion light tank was allowed to be used in Aceh and we were charged higher for some Hawk jets AND the Scorpion (where it should be Challenger, not Scorpion, f*ck Tutut), worst arms supplier in terms of service, as they treat you as if you are borrowing the product, not as a dignified customer buying the product in real money.

There is a several type of surveillance asset like JSTAR, bore in the minds our Slamr boeing with ericsson radar is kinda fit in this category. Need to replace it though as had been flying for three decades. Well i suggest the Air force should optimized for Maritime surveillance roles and capable to perform long range patrol

Poseidon coupled with Triton will be a good combi, along with nodes from the rest of the CN 235 MPA fleets will give us dedicated patrol array

 

[Chestnut]

Their price tags tho, all above 200 million USD apiece, very expensive and we still don't have the need to procure them. It's better to allocate that amount of money to buy more armored vehicles and equipments for the army, and to modernize the army to it's ideal strenght. Only then, procuring ground support surveillance like the Sentinel and J-STARS could make sense. Is there any aircraft capable to support the Army in Papua? something with thermal imagery capability/ anything which could detect and identify OPMs hiding in bushes and trees? could be very useful and could prevent further casualty for the security forces? (or J-Stars itself could be used for this task?).

We really don't need anymore armored vehicles. The plan for additional Leopard 2's were scrapped because of that and there are elements within the Army resisting the purchase of the Pandur II's and Kaplan Tigers. All three of those were a certain high ranking officer's scheme and he basically only did it because he was getting commissions. (I'm not going to name names.)

A cornerstone of Gen. Andika's strategy is adding drones, UGV's (I was actually a part of a team that studied the idea of adding UGV's as a battalion level asset), helicopters, and integrating CAS with infantry. This is great because hey, surprise, we're not in the cold war anymore and T-72's aren't rushing through the Fulda Gap and Type-99's aren't going to land in Java. Essentially he wants the Army to fight smarter not harder.

I'm kinda interested in this ground surveillance aircraft, could be a valuable asset (other than the issue with price and availability) for future threats. But, the problem is that, it's a British aircraft, one of their favorite even, and from our past experience, they are even worse (or better!) that the Americans in the field of embargo. Not even the shitty Scorpion light tank was allowed to be used in Aceh and we were charged higher for some Hawk jets AND the Scorpion (where it should be Challenger, not Scorpion, f*ck Tutut), worst arms supplier in terms of service, as they treat you as if you are borrowing the product, not as a dignified customer buying the product in real money.

Special Forces supported by drones, ground surveillance aircraft, ELINT aircraft, EW aircraft, and CAS would basically put OPM operations at a hilarious standstill. There's no need to send regular army battalions when a small teams with good support can do the job as well with better results. This is what the David Petraeus did in Afghanistan as a part of his COIN strategy and it went spectacularly well until he got sacked over cheating on his wife.

Poseidon coupled with Triton will be a good combi, along with nodes from the rest of the CN 235 MPA fleets will give us dedicated patrol array

They're already dead set on getting the P-8 last time I checked, though obviously this is Indonesia so you have both the Navy and the Air Force fighting over who get's what.

Also, @HellFireIndo

Keep in mind that all weapons purchases (yes, even Eastern ones) is more complicated than just buying something from Carrefour. There's always strings attached and there's always going to be an angry, righteous politician around the corner who will raise hell when what you're doing isn't fitting their agenda.

 

[Nike]

We really don't need anymore armored vehicles. The plan for additional Leopard 2's were scrapped because of that and there are elements within the Army resisting the purchase of the Pandur II's and Kaplan Tigers. All three of those were a certain high ranking officer's scheme and he basically only did it because he was getting commissions. (I'm not going to name names.)

A cornerstone of Gen. Andika's strategy is adding drones, UGV's (I was actually a part of a team that studied the idea of adding UGV's as a battalion level asset), helicopters, and integrating CAS with infantry. This is great because hey, surprise, we're not in the cold war anymore and T-72's aren't rushing through the Fulda Gap and Type-99's aren't going to land in Java. Essentially he wants the Army to fight smarter not harder.



Special Forces supported by drones, ground surveillance aircraft, ELINT aircraft, EW aircraft, and CAS would basically put OPM operations at a hilarious standstill. There's no need to send regular army battalions when a small teams with good support can do the job as well with better results. This is what the David Petraeus did in Afghanistan as a part of his COIN strategy and it went spectacularly well until he got sacked over cheating on his wife.



They're already dead set on getting the P-8 last time I checked, though obviously this is Indonesia so you have both the Navy and the Air Force fighting over who get's what.

Also, @HellFireIndo

Keep in mind that all weapons purchases (yes, even Eastern ones) is more complicated than just buying something from Carrefour. There's always strings attached and there's always going to be an angry, righteous politician around the corner who will raise hell when what you're doing isn't fitting their agenda.

Well i am maybe part of your political opponnent though, as i am always giving push for the hardy and ready to win army is must be supported by heavy cavalry units, lots of cavalry and mechanized formation. As my self and the clique around me is not fond of small team elite action supported by plethora of uber tech stuff like flying drones, ugv and thetered radar balloons and playing delta force action, considering the basic armaments of our armies is still lacking, severely lacking. I am all for the build up basic good conventional army, where the artillery is king and cavalry is the queen and our mobile air cavalry guarding the rear and supporting the lines. Well, you got the points about there is minuscule possibility of Type 99 landing is almost zero and else, but to put credible defense for the country as large as Indonesia you need kind of expeditionary Army units large enough to be capable to give punch and mobile enough to be deployable at any given times. Thats why the formation of new type of armor and arty had become the cornerstone of our army build up in the last decade.

For OPM case, i see brimob should be utilized more than what they had doing today. Politically, push the army to the field there is incorrect.

 

[Chestnut]

Well i am maybe part of your political opponnent though, as i am always giving push for the hardy and ready to win army is must be supported by heavy cavalry units, lots of cavalry and mechanized formation. As my self and the clique around me is not fond of small team elite action supported by plethora of uber tech stuff like flying drones, ugv and thetered radar balloons and playing delta force action, considering the basic armaments of our armies is still lacking, severely lacking. I am all for the build up basic good conventional army, where the artillery is king and cavalry is the queen and our mobile air cavalry guarding the rear and supporting the lines. Well, you got the points about there is minuscule possibility of Type 99 landing is almost zero and else, but to put credible defense for the country as large as Indonesia you need kind of expeditionary Army units large enough to be capable to give punch and mobile enough to be deployable at any given times. Thats why the formation of new type of armor and arty had become the cornerstone of our army build up in the last decade.

For OPM case, i see brimob should be utilized more than what they had doing today. Politically, push the army to the field there is incorrect.

Having large scale formations of armor does not mean it's a very credible deterrent, why do you think a lot of people laugh at Arab armies with their huge armor forces yet respect places like Singapore or Israel? This isn't the 1980's, there's a reason why all competent armies are going away from heavy armor and more towards smart weapons and rapidly deployable forces. Talking with my counterparts from abroad I can guarantee no one is actually threatened by the current MEF buildup strategy. Diplomatic concerns sure, but people like me who do this stuff for a living know that what we're doing currently is not in any way a credible deterrent.

To put it into perspective, it wont be hard for an F-35 to launch a Joint Strike Missile at an armored column driving through the Javan countryside (because where else could you actually deploy them). Whereas it would be significantly harder for them to track an MRAP type vehicle driving through the dense jungle, or hell even low flying helicopters using terrain masking.

To summarize, our geography does not allow us to field large, armor based, formations. It is simply not a good way to invest our budget into and thank god a lot of officers are starting to realize this.

We need more amphibious ships and helicopters. We need drones, CAS, and air transportable artillery. We need AT, SINCGARS, PRR's, and better protective equipment.

We are not a flat country and we should be fielding more rapidly deployable assets instead of insisting on heavy armor. This whole armor hardon just smells of politics and not of actual defense needs.

I am willing to agree that we need better arty (hell we should standardize on 1 155mm platform and 1 105mm platform) but you can forget about tanks or heavy AFV's. If anything we need to standardize our light trucks instead of fielding 4 different vehicles (Komodo, Sherpa, Land Rover, Vamtac.) or better SAMs and radars.

Also, you might not like small unit tactics and deployment of surgical strikes, but the reality is that strategy works in regards to COIN and has been tried and tested for years now.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

 

[HellFireIndo]

We really don't need anymore armored vehicles. The plan for additional Leopard 2's were scrapped because of that and there are elements within the Army resisting the purchase of the Pandur II's and Kaplan Tigers. All three of those were a certain high ranking officer's scheme and he basically only did it because he was getting commissions. (I'm not going to name names.)

A cornerstone of Gen. Andika's strategy is adding drones, UGV's (I was actually a part of the team that studied the idea of adding UGV's as a battalion level asset), helicopters, and integrating CAS with infantry. This is great because hey, surprise, we're not in the cold war anymore and T-72's aren't rushing through the Fulda Gap and Type-99's aren't going to land in Java. Essentially he wants the Army to fight smarter not harder.

While i can't assure you whether my opinion make sense or not (in our defense requirement POV), i think just one more batch of Leo 2 acquisition is a good thing, at least some upgraded (2A6/RI level at least) second-hand one from European countries (Netherlands?), 200 of them is already good enough, but 106 is not really an optimal figure if there's somehow a really urgent situation requiring these cats, 100 more Leo 2s will only be 1 billion USD top, to cover our need for 20 years to come. Even when there's some collusion going on with the Pandur 2 and Kaplan Tiger program, i think if we did got some expertise and capability to build armored vehicles on our own, then as a taxpayer, i'll still be fine with it.

It's actually interesting that the Army did plan for such a program, i thought they'll wait until they finish with the standardization of infantry equipment (rifles, attachments, helmet, armors,gadgets, new camo), basic modernization etc.... but apparently they will go all-out for MEF 3 Army modernization it seems? I've never thought that UGV will be a thing for the Army, considering how conservative older officers are, as they often deny basic modern equipment for the soldiers, let alone prioritizing ground drones? I recently realized that, letting technology do most of the works and humans simply have to figure out how utilize it the best way, is the key to victory for most of the history, why charge directly at the enemy if you can bomb them from far away safe position and still get better result with it? I might be a hollywood propaganda victim, but i'm inspired by the depiction of how modernized army operate, having many tools like Attack Chopper, Drones, Military Satellites and CAS aircrafts make the job done better and faster with less casualty.

Special Forces supported by drones, ground surveillance aircraft, ELINT aircraft, EW aircraft, and CAS would basically put OPM operations at a hilarious standstill. There's no need to send regular army battalions when a small teams with good support can do the job as well with better results. This is what the David Petraeus did in Afghanistan as a part of his COIN strategy and it went spectacularly well until he got sacked over cheating on his wife.

This is almost exactly what i imagined, albeit specifically in Papua's case, there will be less CAS involved to avoid diplomatic backlash from neighboring country. OPM is not only a group of people, but they are also an ideology, a mindset, and we can't outright kill it. Even if we successfully formulated doctrine to militarily eliminate OPM armed struggle, doing it too harshly and without concern of the general Papuan public, will only gave birth to more OPMs than we kill, so we must be careful in our conduct. Advanced military assets like Drones, electronic ground surveillance, or even satellite imagery, will pinpoint the exact location of these bandits, the regular troops will occupy and surround the area, the elite Raiders will hunt them and preferably push them back into a narrow area, and the Special Force will deliver the killing blow. (btw, David Petraeus? that name sounds strangely familiar, perhaps i heard it in news few years ago)

I know how complicated and politically influenced defense business could be, i have gone through many, many thing in life.......and Su 35 is still not here yet. Although there are politically and personal financial influenced decisions made by our defense policymakers, for now, it is getting better post-suharto era, where that damned suharto child corrupting defense budget like it's her birthday cake. But, every country in the world did buy weapons with some political motivation along the road, be it personal lobby, or for diplomatic gains, i'm fine with anything that's good for the Military as it also indirectly good for me. I believe we are heading towards the better in terms of professionalism within the military, defense ministry and defense industry, we just have to wait a little bit to really notice the difference. Politics and corrupt people are eternal and universal, but professionalism while hard to attain, tend to last long.

 

[Chestnut]

@Marine Rouge

If you still want SOME armor assets then the Navy should really be looking at these. The JHSV's is perfect for Indonesia as it can rapidly deploy Amphibious combat units and was basically designed for island hopping operations.

Several JHSV's with organic arty, AT, and medium armor assets supported by an LPD/LHD's carrying an organic helicopter wing whilst datalinked to an Air Force wing with ground surveillance, ELINT/SIGINT, EW, and CAS planes can guarantee our defense needs more than 500 Leopard 2's.

 

[Nike]

Having large scale formations of armor does not mean it's a very credible deterrent, why do you think a lot of people laugh at Arab armies with their huge armor forces yet respect places like Singapore or Israel? This isn't the 1980's, there's a reason why all competent armies are going away from heavy armor and more towards smart weapons and rapidly deployable forces. Talking with my counterparts from abroad I can guarantee no one is actually threatened by the current MEF buildup strategy. Diplomatic concerns sure, but people like me who do this stuff for a living know that what we're doing currently is not in any way a credible deterrent.

To put it into perspective, it wont be hard for an F-35 to launch a Joint Strike Missile at an armored column driving through the Javan countryside (because where else could you actually deploy them). Whereas it would be significantly harder for them to track an MRAP type vehicle driving through the dense jungle, or hell even low flying helicopters using terrain masking.

To summarize, our geography does not allow us to field large, armor based, formations. It is simply not a good way to invest our budget into and thank god a lot of officers are starting to realize this.

We need more amphibious ships and helicopters. We need drones, CAS, and air transportable artillery. We need AT, SINCGARS, PRR's, and better protective equipment.

We are not a flat country and we should be fielding more rapidly deployable assets instead of insisting on heavy armor. This whole armor hardon just smells of politics and not of actual defense needs.

I am willing to agree that we need better arty (hell we should standardize on 1 155mm platform and 1 105mm platform) but you can forget about tanks or heavy AFV's. If anything we need to standardize our light trucks instead of fielding 4 different vehicles (Komodo, Sherpa, Land Rover, Vamtac.) or better SAMs and radars.

Also, you might not like small unit tactics and deployment of surgical strikes, but the reality is that strategy works in regards to COIN and has been tried and tested for years now.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

Facts, Israel and Singapore maintain large armor formation within their ranks, so with the US of A, only Western European like Netherland and UK trying to downsized their armor formation in all with the reduced funds available for the army to secure funding for Air Force. BUT the other like Poland, Turkey, Romania, French and even Germany is in re equip programme and induct more heavier armor and cavalry.

All in all COIN is only ever worked against unconventional enemy weaker than you and intend to fight against you in unlinear manner. They will not and never worked against peer or in our cases more better armed and equipped adversaries. Heck even fighting against ISIS in Iraq, US of A need to fielding their conventional units of Marines corps armed with conventional arms. You can even related the siege of Marawi with the needs of adequate armor and punch. This is not FEELING but FACTS!!!

 

[Chestnut]

While i can't assure you whether my opinion make sense or not (in our defense requirement POV), i think just one more batch of Leo 2 acquisition is a good thing, at least some upgraded (2A6/RI level at least) second-hand one from European countries (Netherlands?), 200 of them is already good enough, but 106 is not really an optimal figure if there's somehow a really urgent situation requiring these cats, 100 more Leo 2s will only be 1 billion USD top, to cover our need for 20 years to come. Even when there's some collusion going on with the Pandur 2 and Kaplan Tiger program, i think if we did got some expertise and capability to build armored vehicles on our own, then as a taxpayer, i'll still be fine with it.

It's actually interesting that the Army did plan for such a program, i thought they'll wait until they finish with the standardization of infantry equipment (rifles, attachments, helmet, armors,gadgets, new camo), basic modernization etc.... but apparently they will go all-out for MEF 3 Army modernization it seems? I've never thought that UGV will be a thing for the Army, considering how conservative older officers are, as they often deny basic modern equipment for the soldiers, let alone prioritizing ground drones? I recently realized that, letting technology do most of the works and humans simply have to figure out how utilize it the best way, is the key to victory for most of the history, why charge directly at the enemy if you can bomb them from far away safe position and still get better result with it? I might be a hollywood propaganda victim, but i'm inspired by the depiction of how modernized army operate, having many tools like Attack Chopper, Drones, Military Satellites and CAS aircrafts make the job done better and faster with less casualty.



This is almost exactly what i imagined, albeit specifically in Papua's case, there will be less CAS involved to avoid diplomatic backlash from neighboring country. OPM is not only a group of people, but they are also an ideology, a mindset, and we can't outright kill it. Even if we successfully formulated doctrine to militarily eliminate OPM armed struggle, doing it too harshly and without concern of the general Papuan public, will only gave birth to more OPMs than we kill, so we must be careful in our conduct. Advanced military assets like Drones, electronic ground surveillance, or even satellite imagery, will pinpoint the exact location of these bandits, the regular troops will occupy and surround the area, the elite Raiders will hunt them and preferably push them back into a narrow area, and the Special Force will deliver the killing blow. (btw, David Petraeus? that name sounds strangely familiar, perhaps i heard it in news few years ago)

Leopard 2's aren't entirely useless, but our money should be invested in getting smarter weapons and force multipliers.

And yeah it surprised me as well when Andika announced his plans, because it's basically a complete 180 from what his predecessors. He's really not a conservative at all and my most memorable thing about him was when he basically restructured and disband several army administrative commands to make it more efficient. One funny thing that got a lot of staff workers riled up was when he forced everyone in the Army to conduct daily morning PT sessions instead of the old Tuesday and Friday sessions (courtesy of Norwich University it seems haha). I am honestly glad he's in charge and getting rid of all the skeletons in the closet, give me hope honestly.

Andika's philosophy is simple, taking our geography into account he is restructuring the entire army to support the needs of the basic infantryman (Essentially taking what he learned from the US military and adopting it to our needs). This means drones, UGV's, optics, radios, better PPE (armor and helmets), better training, standardizing on a basic truck platform, more helicopters, and improving inter branch coordination. He is also getting rid of a lot of armored vehicles (the M113's especially, you guys have no idea the amount of problems they cause) and replacing them with lighter counterparts.

Facts, Israel and Singapore maintain large armor formation within their ranks, so with the US of A, only Western European like Netherland and UK trying to downsized their armor formation in all with the reduced funds available for the army to secure funding for Air Force. BUT the other like Poland, Turkey, Romania, French and even Germany is in re equip programme and induct more heavier armor and cavalry.

All in all COIN is only ever worked against unconventional enemy weaker than you and intend to fight against you in unlinear manner. They will not and never worked against peer or in our cases more better armed and equipped adversaries. Heck even fighting against ISIS in Iraq, US of A need to fielding their conventional units of Marines corps armed with conventional arms. You can even related the siege of Marawi with the needs of adequate armor and punch. This is not FEELING but FACTS!!!

Singapore fields more than half of it's armor assets abroad in the US, Europe, and Australia. Israel keeps the majority of it's Merkavas in deep storage.

Europe has to share a land border with the Russians, we don't. Europe is one giant flat continent, we're not. Alot of those countries are also investing in AT assets (MMP, Javelin, etc.) more so than full on tanks.

If you don't already realize, we are currently orienting towards COIN. And even if we are in a peer-2-peer conflict, air and naval power is the name of the game. The last peer war was Desert Storm and you can already see how that ended when coalition air power completely decimated Iraqi armor and air defense.

If you want to stop the Liaoning and her support fleet from crossing into our EEZ, you're going to need a lot of Air/Ground launched AShM's supported by AWACS, MPA's, and ELINT/SIGINT assets. Korporal Jupri and his tank crew can do heck-all in that situation.

All those Leopard 2's that you want is basically going to be Q-5 food, that is the reality of modern warfare.

That is facts, not feelings.

 

[Jatosint]

Leopard 2's aren't entirely useless, but our money should be invested in getting smarter weapons and force multipliers.

And yeah it surprised me as well when Andika announced his plans, because it's basically a complete 180 from what his predecessors. He's really not a conservative at all and my most memorable thing about him was when he basically restructured and disband several army administrative commands to make it more efficient. One funny thing that got a lot of staff workers riled up was when he forced everyone in the Army to conduct daily morning PT sessions instead of the old Tuesday and Friday sessions (courtesy of Norwich University it seems haha). I am honestly glad he's in charge and getting rid of all the skeletons in the closet, give me hope honestly.

Andika's philosophy is simple, taking our geography into account he is restructuring the entire army to support the needs of the basic infantryman (Essentially taking what he learned from the US military and adopting it to our needs). This means drones, UGV's, optics, radios, better PPE (armor and helmets), better training, standardizing on a basic truck platform, more helicopters, and improving inter branch coordination. He is also getting rid of a lot of armored vehicles (the M113's especially, you guys have no idea the amount of problems they cause) and replacing them with lighter counterparts.



Singapore fields more than half of it's armor assets abroad in the US, Europe, and Australia. Israel keeps the majority of it's Merkavas in deep storage.

Europe has to share a land border with the Russians, we don't. Europe is one giant flat continent, we're not. Alot of those countries are also investing in AT assets (MMP, Javelin, etc.) more so than full on tanks.

If you don't already realize, we are currently orienting towards COIN. And even if we are in a peer-2-peer conflict, air and naval power is the name of the game. The last peer war was Desert Storm and you can already see how that ended when coalition air power completely decimated Iraqi armor and air defense.

If you want to stop the Liaoning and her support fleet from crossing into our EEZ, you're going to need a lot of Air/Ground launched AShM's supported by AWACS, MPA's, and ELINT/SIGINT assets. Korporal Jupri and his tank crew can do heck-all in that situation.

All those Leopard 2's that you want is basically going to be Q-5 food, that is the reality of modern warfare.

That is facts, not feelings.

Bukan Leo-nya yang gk cocok dengan kondisi geografi Indonesia, mas/mba nya aja yang mikirnya MBT cuma kepake di open filed macem gurun atau dataran luas. MBT juga sangat berguna buat urban warfare, liat kasus Suriah, Irak, sampai Marawi. MBT jadi spearhead buat infantri. Kombinasi mobilitas, firepower, sama protectionnya gk bisa digantiin sama heavy infantry with ATGM. Oh dan kita juga punya perbatasan darat luas di kalimantan kalau anda lupa.


Mas/mba nya juga bilang MBT gk berguna karena gk bisa ngapa-ngapain ngadepin Liaoning/F35.........YA IYALAH LEO 2 ITU KAN MBT, bukan platform ASUW apalagi AAW. Saya malah bakal kaget kalau Leo 2 bisa ngapa-ngapain Liaoning/F35

Kalau kayak gini cara bandingin berguna tidaknya sebuah alutsista mah mas/mba sama aja nelen omongan sendiri. Itu semua aset darat yang mas/mba bilang macem UGV, well equipped well trained infantry, standardized truck/MRAP/4x4 juga gak bakal guna kalau lawan Liaoning/F35.

Kasus MBT Iraq dibabat habis koalisi kok malah nyalahin MBT-nya, ya yang salah AU dan Arhanud AD-nya lah, itu tugas mereka buat ngasih air cover ke elemen kavaleri, bukan malah jadi MBT-nya yang gk guna, where's your logic dude??

Dan lagi walaupun kerjaan utama TNI masih seputar COIN, masa anda mau stuck disitu dan punya militer kapabilitasnya cuma sekedar buat COIN? Bahkan COIN-pun udah bisa jadi urban warfare macem Marawi yang jelas-jelas perlu elemen lapis baja.

Saya kira kebanyakan orang infantry-strong, ternyata ada juga yg AU/AL strong

 

[Svantana]