Indonesia Defence Forum

[HeyPaula1963]

Why even use equipment that the Army didn't have a necessary requirement for anyway

Hey.. Read previous comments to understand what I was talking about

 

[Whizzack]

If the Army needs M113 in Papua, they still can use it though. Is there anyone from the 'spare parts suppliers' there in Papua ?, i guess not even journalists or reporters even. There is no supervisor at all, no one know, it's as free as you want, we can do anything.

Anyone can easily take and upload such pics / video to social media, and it will be blown up out of proportion by NGOs, foreign missionaries, SJWs, OPM, KKB, etc... So yeah technically we can deploy it there, but we won't... When the Brits protested the use of Scorpion / Stormer during the Aceh counterinsurgency operation, we immediately pulled those out of the frontlines, even though we badly needed those assets there at the time... We didn't defy them then, we won't violate it this time either... and it's just a bunch of ancient APCs...

Or like, don't buy arms from Belgium.

A lot of Western EU countries still subscribe to the "We have had a change of definitions for acceptable civilian casualties/how democratic your society is and we regret to say that you failed".

Yeah well, I strongly doubt Belgium is the only western country giving such restrictions on the use of arms to us... can we deploy Apache to Papua for example..? what about Tucano...? It uses Belgian guns in it...

Basically this kind of restrictions based on their "holier than thou" attitude feels like an insult to us... What kind of trust there is with such a condescending attitude...? We should be able to use what we have, when we need, without any such restrictions...

 

[Ravager]

Th

Hey.. Read previous comments to understand what I was talking about

This the age of internet there isn't much anything that could be covered for long .
Not to mention the reputation for holding up their side of the agreement was a big deal in the global politics perception .
What's the big deal with M113 anyway ?? Blocky and hard to manouver in the papua's terrain . It's the komodo's class vehicle ( RCWS equipped ! ) That badly needed there .

 

[Nike]

Anyone can easily take and upload such pics / video to social media, and it will be blown up out of proportion by NGOs, foreign missionaries, SJWs, OPM, KKB, etc... So yeah technically we can deploy it there, but we won't... When the Brits protested the use of Scorpion / Stormer during the Aceh counterinsurgency operation, we immediately pulled those out of the frontlines, even though we badly needed those assets there at the time... We didn't defy them then, we won't violate it this time either... and it's just a bunch of ancient APCs...



Yeah well, I strongly doubt Belgium is the only western country giving such restrictions on the use of arms to us... can we deploy Apache to Papua for example..? what about Tucano...? It uses Belgian guns in it...

Basically this kind of restrictions based on their "holier than thou" attitude feels like an insult to us... What kind of trust there is with such a condescending attitude...? We should be able to use what we have, when we need, without any such restrictions...

Well it is quite understandable for Brits to told us not to use Scorpion and newly acquired Hawk 109/209 as Indonesia is even not paid a cent at the time and those still being paid off by British taxpayer by loan scheme before being sent to Indonesia. And instead Indonesia using A4 Skyhawk Made in USA during operasi Rencong and Darurat Militer 2003, along with other major assets like V150, Saracen, Ferret, VAB from France, Stormer, from England, OV 10 Bronco Made in USA, C130 Made in USA,. LST Tacoma class, Van Speijk Frigates, Fatahillah class, small arms like Browning HMG, FN MAG , Minimi and so on without any restriction.

 

[Chestnut]

Yeah well, I strongly doubt Belgium is the only western country giving such restrictions on the use of arms to us... can we deploy Apache to Papua for example..? what about Tucano...? It uses Belgian guns in it...

Yes actually. Can confirm.

They just don't use them for the same reason they don't use the Mi-35 or Flankers over there. There's really no pressing operational need for them/unnecessary risk taking by sending top-tier assets into a marginally hostile environment.

Also, a lot of the M2's here are made in the US under FNH USA, which doesn't require any sort of Belgian approval (not that small arms require any sort of foreign approval anyways).

Basically this kind of restrictions based on their "holier than thou" attitude feels like an insult to us... What kind of trust there is with such a condescending attitude...? We should be able to use what we have, when we need, without any such restrictions...

I mean, the same can be applied to literally anyone. East or West regardless.

 

[umigami]

Anyone can easily take and upload such pics / video to social media, and it will be blown up out of proportion by NGOs, foreign missionaries, SJWs, OPM, KKB, etc... So yeah technically we can deploy it there, but we won't... When the Brits protested the use of Scorpion / Stormer during the Aceh counterinsurgency operation, we immediately pulled those out of the frontlines, even though we badly needed those assets there at the time... We didn't defy them then, we won't violate it this time either... and it's just a bunch of ancient APCs...



Yeah well, I strongly doubt Belgium is the only western country giving such restrictions on the use of arms to us... can we deploy Apache to Papua for example..? what about Tucano...? It uses Belgian guns in it...

Basically this kind of restrictions based on their "holier than thou" attitude feels like an insult to us... What kind of trust there is with such a condescending attitude...? We should be able to use what we have, when we need, without any such restrictions...

In papua, We use Bell 412 as gunships with dillon M134 Gatling you know.

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[HeyPaula1963]

Th

This the age of internet there isn't much anything that could be covered for long .
Not to mention the reputation for holding up their side of the agreement was a big deal in the global politics perception .
What's the big deal with M113 anyway ?? Blocky and hard to manouver in the papua's terrain . It's the komodo's class vehicle ( RCWS equipped ! ) That badly needed there .

Yup... What I want from my statement about M113 in Papua was just to confront Whizzack about his view that we need diversification on weapons. Not because I want M113 to be in Papua.

 

[¿Por qué?]

Japanese Submarines Exchange Stirling Engines for Lithium-ion Batteries
Lithium-ion Batteries?
The first ten submarines are equipped with traditional lead acid batteries in combination with the Stirling motor. The eleventh Soryu, however, is the first Japanese submarine equipped with ruggedised lithium-ion batteries, without the Stirling engines.

Lithium-ion batteries indeed have substantially more electric storage capacity than lead-acid batteries [1]. These lithium-ion batteries have been placed in the existing battery storage areas as well as in the spaces previously occupied by the AIP Sterling engines. In this way, the submarine could be equipped with a large amount of more powerful batteries. This has improved underwater endurance significantly and will further reduce the already low underwater noise levels. The financial budget of this eleventh submarine is 536.7 million US dollars, while the costs of number ten amounted to 502 million US dollars according to website Jane’s 360.

So more or less these are our options price-wise :

- U214 $400 million
- Scorpene $500 million
- A26 (Blekinge) $513 million
- Soryu $502 million (non Li-ion battery) - $536.7 million (Li-ion battery)

If we can get foreign loan I don't see any reason we can't get the Soryu or A26

 

[umigami]

So more or less these are our options price-wise :

- U214 $400 million
- Scorpene $500 million
- A26 (Blekinge) $513 million
- Soryu $502 million (non Li-ion battery) - $536.7 million (Li-ion battery)

If we can get foreign loan I don't see any reason we can't get the Soryu or A26

A26 came out in 3 version. Which one?

 

[Whizzack]

Well it is quite understandable for Brits to told us not to use Scorpion and newly acquired Hawk 109/209 as Indonesia is even not paid a cent at the time and those still being paid off by British taxpayer by loan scheme before being sent to Indonesia.

If that's the true reason then it's even more ridiculous, it's like saying you are not allowed to drive your new car to work because you haven't paid off the car loan yet...

Yes actually. Can confirm.

Confirm with what proof ? Your own assumptions ?

I mean, the same can be applied to literally anyone. East or West regardless.

Perhaps, but I have never seen or heard such restrictions from the East, always from the West...

In papua, We use Bell 412 as gunships with dillon M134 Gatling you know.

Yeah I know, so...?

Yup... What I want from my statement about M113 in Papua was just to confront Whizzack about his view that we need diversification on weapons. Not because I want M113 to be in Papua.

And I already replied to you...

 

[umigami]

If that's the true reason then it's even more ridiculous, it's like saying you are not allowed to drive your new car to work because you haven't paid off the car loan yet...


Confirm with what proof ? Your own assumptions ?


Perhaps, but I have never seen or heard such restrictions from the East, always from the West...


Yeah I know, so...?


And I already replied to you...

So that's mean american have no problem their weaponry being used in papua. It's just TNI doesn't consider situation in papua urgent enough to deploy big gun, Apache for example.

 

[Ravager]

So that's mean american have no problem their weaponry being used in papua. It's just TNI doesn't consider situation in papua urgent enough to deploy big gun, Apache for example.

What we need in papua theater is a nimble yet enough juice small to medium chopper with minigun as rapid response unit . A heavy lift chopper as logistics . And lots of komodo's class vehicles with RCWS and lots of night time gogles for the infantry .
The rest ?? Waste of tax payer money ...

 

[Chestnut]

Confirm with what proof ? Your own assumptions ?

Because I asked the relevant people at DISLITBANG?

Perhaps, but I have never seen or heard such restrictions from the East, always from the West...

Well yeah, because the East often times just sells anyone not well within their orbit/CSTO sub-standard export variants.

 

[umigami]

What we need in papua theater is a nimble yet enough juice small to medium chopper with minigun as rapid response unit . A heavy lift chopper as logistics . And lots of komodo's class vehicles with RCWS and lots of night time gogles for the infantry .
The rest ?? Waste of tax payer money ...

How about some 105 howitzer such as LG-1?
So they can request fire support.
And some drone too. Even the commercial one should be enough.

 

[Ravager]

How about some 105 howitzer such as LG-1?
So they can request fire support.
And some drone too. Even the commercial one should be enough.

As of now ... 105 mm was kind of irrelevant . Truth to be told with the 155 mm was getting lighter 105 was redundant and money waste . Even our marines was considering their towed artillary plan transition into Dana SPG quite seriously .
Sorry , kind of forget about the drone there .. Drone was a basic neccesity but the longer loitering time one do 24 hours at minimum . You have to considering the height of operating ceiling in papua .