Indonesia Defence Forum

[Alex898]

whoa whoa relax bung, i don't call you fan boy, nobody did that. i just answering your question on why we get flankers at the first place. while you said that flankers are big loss from the technical and economical perspective, well i just said that you looking in wrong area, we acquire flankers for geopolitical and parity issue, the reason? i already explained. And that's should also explain on why SU-35 are the first name that appear when F-5 retired, because obviously this ska 14 are facing aussie, not natuna.

and if you wondering what prespective that keeps people "ignoring" china, that's perspective called history, a pain full history. yes, the main threat now are china, but this is real world, you need to wining hearts and minds of the people on whatever you want to do, that's where propaganda played. you can have sophisticated fighter jet, but if you cannot wining hearts and minds if the people that's no use.

and so far bung, the eastern "fanboys" are winning here, their propaganda strategy keeps us from acquire a replacement for fighter jets that already retired 4 years ago.

sorry bung, didnt mean to do that to you. just annoyed by those people who thinks you're a fan boy, even when you're just being a realist.
btw, we cant just hanging to the fact that US embargoed us, now from the situations, you can clearly see that US is on our side, Aussie is on our side, and S'pore, not just military aspect, but also in economic aspect. I know politics changes all the time, but when its benefit us like this, its better to use it.

 

[Chestnut]

Perhaps you need to see what Chestnut previous posts to understand why I said that. The context its not just EF vs F15/18 tho I am fine with whatever we going to choose, I even dream that somehow we manage to get our hands on F15EX. So no, Im not saying he is fanboy but in other word he prolly need to chill abit when talking about US.

To be fair, I did write up why the Typhoon isn't that bad of a choice, just not a very good one and would only be good if they were bought new WITH Airbus offset packagaes.

Regardless, the Air Force is heavily leaned towards supporting American made aircraft; much as the Navy is leaned towards European made ones. That's just the reality that most people refuse to accept.

 

[Gundala]

I know politics changes all the time, but when its benefit us like this, its better to use it.

Amen to that brother! That is the core concept and beauty of Bebas Aktif. Its not a perfect concept but it should give us enogh room to dance for our own benefit.

because obviously this ska 14 are facing aussie, not natuna.

LOL, nice one. I dont have the guts to say it out loud .But yeah, not just Aussie it will also cover Java as the heart of Indonesian economy. Pak Yuyu already said that 1 ska of F16 Viper would be place in Kupang, and thats far away from Natuna as well.

If we look in where TNI AU place their assets and whats the range they going to operate might give us a clue on how we react to the threat assesment.

If we look at the fact, our Sukhoi has more complete missiles type arsenals then our western air assets. To acquire more advance west missiles arsenals we need to be closer to US. But the current military product development in Europe might giving us more choice tho some of them has US content, and can be seen as a product that will satisfy both "east and west Faction"/Jalan tengah. If jalan tengah is not meet then it will end up with SU35 saga story again.

I personally see US vs Europe saga series is far better then US vs Rusky series for our National interest.

 

[joesatriyono]

What the hell, what can Su 35 offer to Indonesian Air Force right now? PESA radar? uncommonality with our Air Defense system? rather high price cost? un existent MRO facility? from this point alone Su 35 deal is bullshit.

And oh China already know by the nook and cranny about Su 35 and made indigenous improvement over them

let's be honest, what sukhoi family offer? obat "dendam lama" and that's why if you know, but i think you already know bung, the groups that keep pushing SU-35 are more less same brass that gets us that's SU-27. so that's why when someone ask why we end up having Su-27 in our inventory, well, because at that time, time when we decided to acquire the Su-27 at the first place, australian are prick.

but nowadays forcing the Su-35 with the same pretext are just dumb, because the threat are no longer come from aussie

 

[Raduga]

Pindad Mulai Produksi Rantis Maung

​

PT Pindad (Persero) sudah mulai melakukan proses produksi kendaraan taktis (Rantis) Maung 4x4. Hal ini dilakukan guna memenuhi permintaan pemesanan dari Kementerian Pertahanan (Kemhan).

Abraham Mose, Direktur Utama PT Pindad, mengatakan proses produksi Maung sudah dimulai sejak pekan ini, diharapkan sudah ada beberapa unit yang bisa dikejar dalam dua bulan. "Sudah dimulai ya, material yang dibelanjakan juga sudab mulai datang, tapi ini untuk yang militer dulu yang kemarin dipesan 500 unit. Diharapkan saat HUT TNI di Oktober nanti sudah ada 50-an unit yang bisa ikut," ujar Abraham kepada Kompas.com, Kamis (23/7/2020).

Abraham menjelaskan Menteri Pertahanan (Menhan) Prabowo Subianto, merencanakan Maung agar bisa ikut serta dalam parade defile perayaan HUT TNI pada 5 Oktober 2020 nanti.

Sementara untuk sisa jumlah unit Maung yang menggunakan mesin turbodiesel berkubikasi 2.400 cc lainnya, diklaim akan tetap dikerjakan. Menurut Abraham, meski bertahap, Pindad mengupayakan pemenuhannya bisa dikejar hingga akhir 2020.

"Jadi memang bertahap unitnya, tidak langsung 500 unit karena kan butuh proses. Setelah jadi nanti ada proses pengujian dan lain sebagainya lagi. Konsen kami tetap memunuhi untuk militer lebih dulu," ucap Abraham.

Mulai Produksi Maung, Pindad Gandeng UMKM

​

Guna mengejar pesanan 500 unit yang diminta Kementerian Pertahanan (Kemhna), PT Pindad (Persero) sudah mulai menjalankan proses produksi kendaraan taktis (rantis) Maung. Menariknya, dalam proses penggarapan Maung, Pindad juga melibatkan sektor Usaha Mikro Kecil dan Menengah ( UMKM) yang ada di lingkungan sekitarnya. Kondisi ini dilakukan sebagai upaya meningkatkan penggunaan komponen lokal atau Tingkat Kandungan Komponen Dalam Negeri ( TKDN). "Karena Pindad merupakan industri hilir, jadi dalam proses produksi Maung serta kendaraan militer lainnya kami juga melibatkan ekosistem yang ada disekitar, karena kami juga memiliki kewajiban untuk membina industri UMKM yang ada di lingkungan kami," kata Vice President Inovasi PT Pindad Windhu Paramarta, kepada Kompas.com, Kamis (23/7/2020).
​

Lebih lanjut Windhu menjelaskan bila di area Pindad, ada banyak UMKM yang sudah sejak dulu ikut mendukung Pindad dalam hal produksi. Kebanyakan bidang usahanya lebih ke bengkel besi, serta mengolah bahan baku menjadi komponen-komponen pendukung. Contohnya seperti pengerjaan braket yang dibutuhkan untuk lampu dan lainnya. Selain itu juga untuk komponen towing serta overfender yang semua rata-rata dikerjakan oleh UMKM. "Dengan demikian, industri UMKM di sekitar Pindad bisa kami bisa dan menghidupkan sektor ekonomi mereka juga. Kami juga terbuka untuk industri yang memang sudah lama berkecimpung di dunia otomotif, initinya kami akan libatkan juga untuk mendukung Maung ini," ucap Windhu.

Sementara ketika ditanya soal kandungan lokal pada Maung sendiri, menurut Windhu secara garis besar sudah cukup tinggi. Apalagi memang bila melihat dari rata-rata materialnya dibuat sendiri layaknya custom. "Kalau kami tarik secara keseluruhan, di luar dari mesin dan transmisi ya, itu sudah mendekati 50 persenan. Tuntutan untuk industri itu kan sekitar 40 persen, tapi kami terus mengejar hingga bisa 50 persen," ujar Windhu.

"Memang ada misi tersendiri untuk Pindad dari Kemham dan BUMN yang mengharuskan Pindad sebagai industri yang leading di militer untuk menghidupkan kembali ekosistem industri yang ada disekitarnya, apalagi kondisinya juga sedang Covid-19 juga," kata dia.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://otomotif.kompas.com/read/2020/07/25/134100815/mulai-produksi-maung-pindad-gandeng-umkm
https://otomotif.kompas.com/read/2020/07/23/144121015/pindad-mulai-produksi-rantis-maung

definitely a good start .

 

[Nike]

let's be honest, what sukhoi family offer? obat "dendam lama" and that's why if you know, but i think you already know bung, the groups that keep pushing SU-35 are more less same brass that gets us that's SU-27. so that's why when someone ask why we end up having Su-27 in our inventory, well, because at that time, time when we decided to acquire the Su-27 at the first place, australian are prick.

but nowadays forcing the Su-35 with the same pretext are just dumb, because the threat are no longer come from aussie

I am asking what Su 35 offer to us? Even in diplomatic stages, Russian influences to Asia Pacific region is as much as what Singapore had, even lesser. Now with the assertiveness of China and their influence in economy and military clout only US and her alliance (Japan, So Kor, Australia ) can create the balance of power in this region. Russian stuff is better only limited for their minor stuff like APC, armor, munition for 122 mm rocket and utility helicopter stuff.

Pindad Mulai Produksi Rantis Maung

​

PT Pindad (Persero) sudah mulai melakukan proses produksi kendaraan taktis (Rantis) Maung 4x4. Hal ini dilakukan guna memenuhi permintaan pemesanan dari Kementerian Pertahanan (Kemhan).

Abraham Mose, Direktur Utama PT Pindad, mengatakan proses produksi Maung sudah dimulai sejak pekan ini, diharapkan sudah ada beberapa unit yang bisa dikejar dalam dua bulan. "Sudah dimulai ya, material yang dibelanjakan juga sudab mulai datang, tapi ini untuk yang militer dulu yang kemarin dipesan 500 unit. Diharapkan saat HUT TNI di Oktober nanti sudah ada 50-an unit yang bisa ikut," ujar Abraham kepada Kompas.com, Kamis (23/7/2020).

Abraham menjelaskan Menteri Pertahanan (Menhan) Prabowo Subianto, merencanakan Maung agar bisa ikut serta dalam parade defile perayaan HUT TNI pada 5 Oktober 2020 nanti.

Sementara untuk sisa jumlah unit Maung yang menggunakan mesin turbodiesel berkubikasi 2.400 cc lainnya, diklaim akan tetap dikerjakan. Menurut Abraham, meski bertahap, Pindad mengupayakan pemenuhannya bisa dikejar hingga akhir 2020.

"Jadi memang bertahap unitnya, tidak langsung 500 unit karena kan butuh proses. Setelah jadi nanti ada proses pengujian dan lain sebagainya lagi. Konsen kami tetap memunuhi untuk militer lebih dulu," ucap Abraham.

Mulai Produksi Maung, Pindad Gandeng UMKM

​

Guna mengejar pesanan 500 unit yang diminta Kementerian Pertahanan (Kemhna), PT Pindad (Persero) sudah mulai menjalankan proses produksi kendaraan taktis (rantis) Maung. Menariknya, dalam proses penggarapan Maung, Pindad juga melibatkan sektor Usaha Mikro Kecil dan Menengah ( UMKM) yang ada di lingkungan sekitarnya. Kondisi ini dilakukan sebagai upaya meningkatkan penggunaan komponen lokal atau Tingkat Kandungan Komponen Dalam Negeri ( TKDN). "Karena Pindad merupakan industri hilir, jadi dalam proses produksi Maung serta kendaraan militer lainnya kami juga melibatkan ekosistem yang ada disekitar, karena kami juga memiliki kewajiban untuk membina industri UMKM yang ada di lingkungan kami," kata Vice President Inovasi PT Pindad Windhu Paramarta, kepada Kompas.com, Kamis (23/7/2020).
​

Lebih lanjut Windhu menjelaskan bila di area Pindad, ada banyak UMKM yang sudah sejak dulu ikut mendukung Pindad dalam hal produksi. Kebanyakan bidang usahanya lebih ke bengkel besi, serta mengolah bahan baku menjadi komponen-komponen pendukung. Contohnya seperti pengerjaan braket yang dibutuhkan untuk lampu dan lainnya. Selain itu juga untuk komponen towing serta overfender yang semua rata-rata dikerjakan oleh UMKM. "Dengan demikian, industri UMKM di sekitar Pindad bisa kami bisa dan menghidupkan sektor ekonomi mereka juga. Kami juga terbuka untuk industri yang memang sudah lama berkecimpung di dunia otomotif, initinya kami akan libatkan juga untuk mendukung Maung ini," ucap Windhu.

Sementara ketika ditanya soal kandungan lokal pada Maung sendiri, menurut Windhu secara garis besar sudah cukup tinggi. Apalagi memang bila melihat dari rata-rata materialnya dibuat sendiri layaknya custom. "Kalau kami tarik secara keseluruhan, di luar dari mesin dan transmisi ya, itu sudah mendekati 50 persenan. Tuntutan untuk industri itu kan sekitar 40 persen, tapi kami terus mengejar hingga bisa 50 persen," ujar Windhu.

"Memang ada misi tersendiri untuk Pindad dari Kemham dan BUMN yang mengharuskan Pindad sebagai industri yang leading di militer untuk menghidupkan kembali ekosistem industri yang ada disekitarnya, apalagi kondisinya juga sedang Covid-19 juga," kata dia.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://otomotif.kompas.com/read/2020/07/25/134100815/mulai-produksi-maung-pindad-gandeng-umkm
https://otomotif.kompas.com/read/2020/07/23/144121015/pindad-mulai-produksi-rantis-maung

definitely a good start .

actually the engine itself apparently made by Toyota Indonesia though

 

[kooppyyy]

and look at manualy refuelling method? can they installed something like automatic refuelling tools in the ship?

It depends on whether our HOSTAC support HIFR or not if it does the refuelling equipment will be integrated with the flight deck akin to this:

Aussie; well its been a wild ride with them, thats prolly why they ask for 2k+ US marines to be stationed in Darwin. But we can google our up and down relation, also Australia was a supporter of Timor leste independency before.

Lmao, let's not flatter ourselves here, in the current state Australia has more than enough to stop us death miles away from their shores. Other than China, the other main reasons for Marine RTF Darwin is to train the Australian Army 2nd RAR battalion to transform them into amphibious warfare specialist as part of Australian Army's 2011 plan Beersheba. If you really want to go back, Australia was also a big supporter of our independence from the Dutch and one of the factions that also pushed Dutch into negotiation when it comes to Irian Jaya. Further, Initially, the Australian government tried their best to keep quiet on East Timor, that until we killed 5 of their citizens that got their population riled up. Do not dwell, but be mindful of the history, but as of now, our interest happens to be in line with them. It is only right that we do our best to capitalise on it.

 

[Whizzack]

let's be honest, what sukhoi family offer? obat "dendam lama" and that's why if you know, but i think you already know bung, the groups that keep pushing SU-35 are more less same brass that gets us that's SU-27. so that's why when someone ask why we end up having Su-27 in our inventory, well, because at that time, time when we decided to acquire the Su-27 at the first place, australian are prick.

but nowadays forcing the Su-35 with the same pretext are just dumb, because the threat are no longer come from aussie

Our Sukhoi family currently offers greater range, endurance, payload, and a more complete suit of weaponry (AAM,AShM,AGM, Bombs) compared to the F-16s... It's probe and drogue style AAR enables our Sukhoi pilots to regularly practice AAR with our KC130B and also extending its already impressive range... Which considering our huge airspace (and mostly sea below) is a big plus... while our F-16 pilots can't...

It also goes without saying that Russian T&Cs regarding weaponry usage is much, much more lenient compared to western (and especially American) T&Cs... And being completely separate from Western system, it also provides the ultimate backup for us in case.. you know... if the Australian or the American or the Brits, decides to be a "prick" again someday for whatever reason they might come up with... We learned a bitter lesson back then, and it's still fresh..

and that.. is the honest truth...

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

 

[NEKONEKO]

Prabowo been going there and there recently, a 3 three day visit that means there will be some serious talk.

 

[umigami]

This is just my wildest imagination. India is rafale user, and in the past intend to assemble/produce it locally, and French are lobbying us hardly to procure it too.

Does He intend to make some kind of consorsium with India to produce Rafale together?





Just forget it, just My mimpi basah di siang bolong....

 

[Chestnut]

I originally didn't want to reply, but @Gen3115 and Striver told me to anyways, so here we go.

Our Sukhoi family currently offers greater range, endurance, payload, and a more complete suit of weaponry (AAM,AShM,AGM, Bombs) compared to the F-16s... It's probe and drogue style AAR enables our Sukhoi pilots to regularly practice AAR with our KC130B and also extending its already impressive range... Which considering our huge airspace (and mostly sea below) is a big plus... while our F-16 pilots can't...

Although yes, the Flankers do have a more diverse suit of weaponry and support equipment, keep in mind that their quality is generally inferior compared to their Western counterparts. Without going into technical data, it is a no brainer that countries that have MUCH larger defense budgets would have larger R&D budgets. Not to mention that it's no secret that Russia has separated downgraded models when it comes to export.

Going into the weapons fit. I'm going to use the Malaysian 'Growlerski' as an example. A little known even that has happened is that the US has bought the Kh-31 directly from the Russians, and studied it extensively.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...missiles-so-they-bought-real-ones-from-russia

To sum it up, a professional had said on DefenceTalk: "The Kh-31P, with its high-altitude flight profile, can hit speeds of up Mach 3.5. The sea-skimming Kh-31A can still get up to Mach 2.5 — the system is very cheap and suitable as a target drone."

The Growlerski for the most part has issues when it comes to EW dominance compared to their western counterparts. Not including newer systems like the Growler, the Russian jamming pods (even though it is 2010 technology) is theorized to only be slightly better than the systems on the Tornado ECR.

Even then, Chinese pilots are already well informed on the limitations of Russian systems and have been trained adequately to counter them in that regard. There are pictures of the J-16's sporting indigenous jammer pods likely built on knowledge gained from Russian weapons in their inventory.


*A Chinese made jamming pod equipped on a J-16*

Seeing that the Flankers are likely to be tasked for anti-shipping/naval strike missions, the fact that the Flankers lag far behind in terms of EW dominance means that even IF we buy tons of Kh-31's, the Chinese can simply attach squadrons of their own EW aircraft to jam the incoming Flankers as they are heading towards their targets. Not to mention that compared to the Chinese YJ-12, the Kh-31 is sorely outdated in terms of technology, meaning they are far more easier to jam than their American and European counterparts.

Here is a Chinese source explaining that they know the US have already started using the Kh-31 as target drones. http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2019-02/01/content_9420175.htm
With modified fire control system, China's Su-30 fighter jets might...

And this is the A2G missiles alone, we can likely conclude that the R-77's would suffer the same fate.

Furthermore, you are making this statement on the assumption that the TNI-AU will not procure more tankers to replace the KC-130B. The reality is that it's very likely that the tankers would be coming in before MEF III ends in 2024, and they are likely going to be the boom & probe equipped MRTT's.

All in all, this combined with the fact they are the only assets in the TNI AU inventory that can't 'talk' with the rest of the TNI AU infrastructure (And no, SCYTALIS isn't going to be able to magically datalink them, we have already talked about how the Indians failed in that regard even with Israeli systems simply because neither nation would want to give them the source codes) means that the Flanker and its family really has zero place in the future of the TNI AU.

It also goes without saying that Russian T&Cs regarding weaponry usage is much, much more lenient compared to western (and especially American) T&Cs... And being completely separate from Western system, it also provides the ultimate backup for us in case.. you know... if the Australian or the American or the Brits, decides to be a "prick" again someday for whatever reason they might come up with... We learned a bitter lesson back then, and it's still fresh..

This part is intellectually dishonest, because it ignores the reason why those sanctions happened in the first place. Had the Suharto regime NOT overreacted and attempted to silence foreign journalists, and had Suharto's children not actively meddled in the nation's economy, we would not have had sanctions in the first place. It was just as much our fault as it were US meddling.

Furthermore, it goes without saying that the planes that flew strikes over Aceh even during the sanctions and did intercept jobs were the F-16's. As much as certain people like to claim otherwise, the fact that these strikes and interceptions occur meant that the US was still supporting the F-16 per their specified contracts even during the sanctions.

https://sinarpidie.co/news/saat-konflik-dulu-tni-juga-gunakan-serangan-udara/index.html

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2003-jul-05-fg-indo5-story.html

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

I originally didn't want to reply, but @Gen3115 we have already talked about how the Indians failed in that regard even with Israeli systems simply because neither nation would want to give them the source codes)

I'm not sure what system you are referring to here, IAF will have a " Operational Datalink" in coming years, the backbone for secured data transmission for IAF is a dedicated satellite, which the Air Force got a while back, now Software Defined Radios are also on the flying platforms.

 

[Chestnut]

This is one example.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02/how-a-secretive-drdo-lab-is-saving-the-iaf-su-30mki.html

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

This is one example.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02/how-a-secretive-drdo-lab-is-saving-the-iaf-su-30mki.html

But you mentioned Israeli systems?