Indonesia Defence Forum

[Chestnut]

"Yada yada yada iPhone is better than Android, 'cause I said so, yada yada yada."

Was going to say what @Gen3115 said but he already explained it. Essentially you have provided no counter arguments to anything I've said and at this point have just devolved into ad hominems as I assume you're seething mad that I deconstructed your entire argument.

Who cares about service ceiling, rate of climb, operational range, angle of attack, maneuverability, radar detection range, power to weight ratio, MTOW

We really don't know anything regarding radar detection for one, I doubt the US and the Russians would put that information out in public. So I would love to see where you get a technical document that states that information.

Furthermore as @Gen3115 has stated above, all of that becomes meaningless in a BVR scenario. Furthermore considering the AU is going to get western AWACS planes, it means that the Flankers would become wholly outdated as they wouldn't be able to datalink with them. So why keep throwing money down a pit with no benefits?

The reality is that the 21st century has arrived and unfortunately Russia has failed to keep up. Even the Chinese has adapted better to modern day air combat than the Russians did.

 

[JCMan]

Was going to say what @Gen3115 said but he already explained it. Essentially you have provided no counter arguments to anything I've said and at this point have just devolved into ad hominems as I assume you're seething mad that I deconstructed your entire argument.




We really don't know anything regarding radar detection for one, I doubt the US and the Russians would put that information out in public. So I would love to see where you get a technical document that states that information.

Furthermore as @Gen3115 has stated above, all of that becomes meaningless in a BVR scenario. Furthermore considering the AU is going to get western AWACS planes, it means that the Flankers would become wholly outdated as they wouldn't be able to datalink with them. So why keep throwing money down a pit with no benefits?

The reality is that the 21st century has arrived and unfortunately Russia has failed to keep up. Even the Chinese has adapted better to modern day air combat than the Russians did.

First off, saying things sarcastically is not ad hominem. I'm just placing you in front of a mirror and you didn't like it. I didn't go into details because you also sidestepped relevant details which did not support your point of view and always jump into conclusions.

Secondly, you're somewhat contradicting yourself when you earlier said that we needed double engine fighters to cover large distances but then you dismissed technical parameters that I mentioned (which includes operational range) by saying "all of that becomes meaningless in a BVR scenario". So does operational range matters, or just screw all that cause AESA rules? We can't datalink a western avionic equipped Su-35?

Face it, you're biased and clearly have vested interest since the more western oriented our armed forces are, the more money can be made by the company which you're currently representing.

Again, are you sure you don't know this "Brotowali" guy?

 

[Chestnut]

First off, saying things sarcastically is not ad hominem. I'm just placing you in front of a mirror and you didn't like it. I didn't go into details because you also sidestepped relevant details which did not support your point of view and always jump into conclusions.

Considering your counter argument is a fallacious sarcastic tirade, it is an ad-hominem.

Secondly, you're somewhat contradicting yourself when you earlier said that we needed double engine fighters to cover large distances but then you dismissed technical parameters that I mentioned

Keep in mind I also said fighters with more proven track records and better avionics. Funny how you accused me of cherry picking but yet you do this not a few posts in. Also, it wasn't only me that suggested those factors are irrelevant in a modern day BVR scenario, but that doesn't matter to you, right?

So does operational range matters, or just screw all that cause AESA rules? We can't datalink a western avionic equipped Su-35?

Considering the options I provided have been proven to be able to do the job with a much more proven track record, onboard avionics matters more than the raw technical data. IIRC not even the Su-30MKM is equipped with a TDL as France refused to supply TDL units to Sukhoi for integration. So tell me how exactly are we supposed to datalink and network with the plethora of Western equipment we already have?

Keep in mind it has already been stated by the Armed Forces that the Flankers can't share data with the Navy while on MPA missions let alone the F-16's, if we can't even retrofit a NATO compatible TDL onto the existing Flankers we already have, what makes you think a supposed western avionics equipped Su-35 would be equipped with one? Please explain.

Face it, you're biased and clearly have vested interest since the more western oriented our armed forces are, the more money can be made by the company which you're currently representing.

Imagine being the pot that called the kettle back.

And funny you mentioned it, I have stated numerous times here that I don't work for a firm anymore. I just still have numerous connections within the industry and government. The only reason I'm supporting the F-15 and F/A-18's in favor of the Flankers is because our Air Force is geared towards modern US equipment the day we bought the F-16's. Had we bought the Mirage I would have supported the Rafale currently being offered. And had we bought the Tornado then I would have supported the Eurofighter. The only difference between those and the Flankers is that despite what you think, the Flankers aren't very integrated within our modern day Armed Forces infrastructure. You don't even need me to tell you that for most repairs we have to send them back to Russia or Belarus. Not to mention we only started arming them with their weapons packages within the past 8 years. If we do have that supposed infrastructure you talked about, why is it do we have to send them all the way back to Eastern Europe for maintenance when Vietnam doesn't have to? Explain.

Again, are you sure you don't know this "Brotowali" guy?

Never heard of him and neither do I care. But if he pissed you off as much as I did for stating the obvious, I would love to see his posts.

 

[kooppyyy]

yeah give iver atleast SYLVER A50 (or A70) if we can

Whether be SYLVER or the 41 we need to attain missiles with quad-packed capabilities i.e. ESSM or CAMM, that will greatly maximise the ships potential.

Ideally but then i should remind you Thales & MBDA already made itself " deep root " within our Gov. Not to mention Europeans are " flexible " especially on terms of aftersales which satisfy everyone

Oh yeah definitely, hence I wrote we'll get Thales with SYLVER (if we're lucky) shoved down our throat instead hehe. But what Chestnut wrote regarding this also made sense. Raytheon can try to uproot Thales' grip in the region. The whole region navy has been largely Europhile when it comes to equipment, now with shift in the U.S foreign policy towards the region, could be a solid driver for Raytheon to concert up an effort to uproot Thales grip

Have you btw heard or read any rumour about Leopards ? I thought a while ago maybe 3 or 4 years ago i heard about other probable procurement from certain European Armed Forces reserve

Yea there was an interest in procuring the old Leopard 2A4E from the Spanish stock awhile ago wasn't there? What I heard was the reserve was too rundown to refurb. I'm more curious if there any plans to upgrade the rest of the 2A4 to 2RI standard? And when are we going to install those damn slat armour, looks so bare without it!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1271296175920959488

Interesting to see the engineers got the first dibs on Pandur, also good to see our Pandur comes in the up-armoured version

 

[striver44]

 

[Nike]

If Indonesia already had the capital and political bargain , it will acquired F 15 since long. Heck even Soeharto already looking for A10 Warthog to boost Seroja campaign. In current situation where USA looking for partner to contain China (the thing Indonesia itself found increasingly aggresive by each passing years), it will be better to acquired the best platform USA can offer, like F15 combo with F 35. To acquire Su 35 is very no brainer as China had acquired them before us and already scrutinized them and perform many assessment. You are sure to acquire a platform your enemy had already full knowledge about them. That's one of the reason Indonesia officers very wary and pull out from Su 35 deals, as China increasingly put their presence over Northern Natuna sea.

 

[T-123456]

If Indonesia already had the capital and political bargain , it will acquired F 15 since long. Heck even Soeharto already looking for A10 Warthog to boost Seroja campaign. In current situation where USA looking for partner to contain China (the thing Indonesia itself found increasingly aggresive by each passing years), it will be better to acquired the best platform USA can offer, like F15 combo with F 35. To acquire Su 35 is very no brainer as China had acquired them before us and already scrutinized them and perform many assessment. You are sure to acquire a platform your enemy had already full knowledge about them. That's one of the reason Indonesia officers very wary and pull out from Su 35 deals, as China increasingly put their presence over Northern Natuna sea.

Why not F-35 combined with KFX/IFX ?

 

[Nike]

Why not F-35 combined with KFX/IFX ?

Thats a long way, the KFX itself Will be tested for around 2022_2024, certification Will taking a long time around a decade since the prototypes flying. So thats a long time indeed. And China Will be already with around 4 to five aircraft carrier around mid 2030

 

[striver44]

Korean MoD Held First KF-X Emergency Response Meeting

13 Juni 2020



KF-X fighter (image : KAI)

[Asian Economy] Minister of Defense Chung Kyung-Doo presided over a meeting to deal with contributions to the Korean-style next-generation fighter (KF-X) project on the 6th. The KF-X business held a working-level meeting this year, but this is the first meeting held by Minister Chung. This is because the KF-X project had an emergency as Indonesian co-participation in KF-X increased the amount of unpaid contributions.

The meeting was attended by key aides, including Deputy Minister of Defense Park Jae-Min, Director of Defense Affairs Wang Jeong-Hong, and Deputy Defense Minister Kang Eun-Ho. It was reported that Minister Chung pointed out the situation where KF-X's development cost was insufficiently short, and instructed them to find a way to cover the project cost.

KF-X has been in progress since 2016, and a total of 18 trillion won in development costs, including development costs (about 8 trillion won) and mass production costs (about 10 trillion won), will be invested. Upon completion of the KF-X development by 2026, the Air Force plans to mass-produce 120 aircraft and Indonesia 50 aircraft. The project cost was shared by the Korean government at 60%, Indonesia at 20%, and Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) at a rate of 20%, to jointly invest the KF-X development project cost. In order for the project to proceed normally, Indonesia had to pay 6235 billion to the Korean government by last year, out of a total of 1.7 trillion won by 2026.



Korea Coast Guard operates CN-235 for maritime patrol (photo : Hyeonwoo Noh)

However, the amount paid by Indonesia until last year was only 2272 billion won. It is known that Indonesia hopes to pay in-kind contributions such as CN-235 transporters, ground equipment, and adult clothing. It also claims to extend the payment deadline and expand KF-X technology transfer. When President Joko Wido and Indonesia visited Korea in September 2018, he showed his willingness to renegotiate by asking President Moon Jae-In to reduce the share of KF-X project contributions from 20% to 15%.

The government is in trouble. In addition, reports that Indonesia is leaving the KF-X business and considering purchasing a French fighter, 'Rafale', led to France. If left unchanged, it is feared that the KF-X business with Indonesia will face difficulties. In the worst case, the export performance of Indonesia's 50s disappeared, which forced the production cost per fighter to increase, and the KAI and the Ministry of National Defense also had no sharp point to provide additional resources.

A government official said, "If Indonesia does not pay contributions this year, it may be inevitable that the development schedule will be disrupted.





****

 

[Cromwell]

Korean MoD Held First KF-X Emergency Response Meeting

13 Juni 2020



KF-X fighter (image : KAI)

[Asian Economy] Minister of Defense Chung Kyung-Doo presided over a meeting to deal with contributions to the Korean-style next-generation fighter (KF-X) project on the 6th. The KF-X business held a working-level meeting this year, but this is the first meeting held by Minister Chung. This is because the KF-X project had an emergency as Indonesian co-participation in KF-X increased the amount of unpaid contributions.

The meeting was attended by key aides, including Deputy Minister of Defense Park Jae-Min, Director of Defense Affairs Wang Jeong-Hong, and Deputy Defense Minister Kang Eun-Ho. It was reported that Minister Chung pointed out the situation where KF-X's development cost was insufficiently short, and instructed them to find a way to cover the project cost.

KF-X has been in progress since 2016, and a total of 18 trillion won in development costs, including development costs (about 8 trillion won) and mass production costs (about 10 trillion won), will be invested. Upon completion of the KF-X development by 2026, the Air Force plans to mass-produce 120 aircraft and Indonesia 50 aircraft. The project cost was shared by the Korean government at 60%, Indonesia at 20%, and Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) at a rate of 20%, to jointly invest the KF-X development project cost. In order for the project to proceed normally, Indonesia had to pay 6235 billion to the Korean government by last year, out of a total of 1.7 trillion won by 2026.



Korea Coast Guard operates CN-235 for maritime patrol (photo : Hyeonwoo Noh)

However, the amount paid by Indonesia until last year was only 2272 billion won. It is known that Indonesia hopes to pay in-kind contributions such as CN-235 transporters, ground equipment, and adult clothing. It also claims to extend the payment deadline and expand KF-X technology transfer. When President Joko Wido and Indonesia visited Korea in September 2018, he showed his willingness to renegotiate by asking President Moon Jae-In to reduce the share of KF-X project contributions from 20% to 15%.

The government is in trouble. In addition, reports that Indonesia is leaving the KF-X business and considering purchasing a French fighter, 'Rafale', led to France. If left unchanged, it is feared that the KF-X business with Indonesia will face difficulties. In the worst case, the export performance of Indonesia's 50s disappeared, which forced the production cost per fighter to increase, and the KAI and the Ministry of National Defense also had no sharp point to provide additional resources.

A government official said, "If Indonesia does not pay contributions this year, it may be inevitable that the development schedule will be disrupted.





****

If we should leave the project there has to be a clear exit plan means something which satisfies both factions. I fear their reprisal in Arbitration Court, we can end up with sanctions heavier than the cost of the project itself and leave empty handed

 

[Nike]

If we should leave the project there has to be a clear exit plan means something which satisfies both factions. I fear their reprisal in Arbitration Court, we can end up with sanctions heavier than the cost of the project itself and leave empty handed

I prefer to stay in the program and getting the benefit as many as we can. It is all about good name, i am afraid other Will be wary to cooperate with US if we are easily backing out of the program even when we are had signing the contract. If you are businessman, maintaining a good name is more important than short term benefit and profit.

 

[Raduga]

flashback 2018 unloading vl mica for indonesian navy , source : Asean Security Observer & Lancerdefense

https://lancerdefense.com/2018/05/2...tuk-kapal-perang-tni-al-photo/comment-page-1/

 

[Gen3115]

And no, we shouldn't fix a leak by throwing more water (money) down the drain. If indeed the Flankers are hurting our budget due to its maintenance cost, then splashing billions of dollars to buy a new type of plane and start our learning curve in terms of familiarization from zero again will not help our budget situation in any way, shape or form.

It'll make a dent in the short term like any other acquisition, but it'll benefit so much in the long term not only for budget but also in terms of readiness rate and combat effectiveness from datalinking as well as increased availability in general.

So does operational range matters, or just screw all that cause AESA rules? We can't datalink a western avionic equipped Su-35?

The closest thing we have to a Western avionic equipped Flanker is what the Malaysians and Indians have with MKI and MKM, the western avionics they have aren't even for datalink, they're mostly for weapons employment like their Damocles targeting pod on the MKM. If you're referencing that militarywatchmagazine site that said we're getting NATO avionics for the Su-35 then I don't recommend that. I've had interactions with their alleged author and no offense, he just have bias against US/EU jets and he doesn't really a have a touch of whats going on here. Do you seriously think with CAATSA and current relations that the US would just be willing to give us datalink for our Flankers?

Plus I think we should focus on using Link 16 for network centric forces since we have intentions to develop the capability and have signed an CISMOA agreement anyway

https://ppid.tni.mil.id/view/32435994/pelaksanaan-kegiatan-cismoaccib-ke-17-2-di-hawai-usa.html

 

[umigami]

Indonesia f16 new official camo

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[striver44]

What's wrong with lancer defence.....no more updates....