What's new

Indonesia Defence Forum

it's a pity to see the once premier southeast asian naval power to have to compete with neighboring navies in terms of capabilities, navies which 20-30 years ago are not even on the radar.
Our lawmakers in Senayan should take this as consideration.
 
I see so you are talking about the overall budget, rather than how the budget being split and used.
But MoD already got the biggest share, lets see if we can keep it that way : )

121.2 T
: /
hsys.jpg
 
But Frigate with Smart S is enough to provide radar and missile picket.
Smart L impressive long range of thousands km is for ballistic target ( high altitude), with earth curvature and terrain hugging flight, aerial target detection is hundreds something km or less.

Smart S is the bottom line, chill guys.
The problem is if you're building your forces to counter that of China's, you more or less have to include ABM among capabilities that you need to have. Keep in mind, Chinese doctrine is to saturate an area with missiles before sending in ground troops. A large percentage of their funding goes into missile development. To have a vessel that was made to counter China yet not have ABM capability is in all aspects a white elephant.

This "good enough" line of thinking is exactly why we're stuck behind our neighbors in terms of capabilities in the first place.
 
so its the konde (APAR AESA) that would be changed to smart-s or TRS-4D ??
APAR, Smart-S and TRS-4D is a multifunction Radar (MFR). If those the options then yes, its could one of both.

Smart S mk2 is enough, they can guide ESSM missile, CAMM and Aster series, its not like we soon will own ABM ships capable
Honestly its not that enough, sis. What we need from Iver is not only in terms of dimensions and endurance, also the sensors capability that can go beyond Smart-S radar performance especially for air cover umbrella.
Dengan catatan klo masih sesuai dengan requirement awal.

*
And with current budget it's enough to buy fully equipped standard Iver huitfeld, this one comes from Denmark navy itself.

https://breakingdefense.com/2017/07...flex-frigate-for-us-navy-but-whats-real-cost/
.

Indeed with that budget is actually enough, depends to the government's request.
Or, let's say we have 2 different scenarios. First, dengan bujet segitu bisa aja dapet sensor & sistem yg sama dengan aslinya, atau minimal smart-S + smart-L tapi tanpa senjata alias FFBNW.
Second, klo pemerintah mengharuskan pembelian disertai sama senjata, maka kemungkinan dapetnya cuma radar smart-s meskipun senjata yg didapet gak segarang aslinya. Jadi kemungkinannya ya antara kedua itu.
 
The problem is if you're building your forces to counter that of China's, you more or less have to include ABM among capabilities that you need to have. Keep in mind, Chinese doctrine is to saturate an area with missiles before sending in ground troops. A large percentage of their funding goes into missile development. To have a vessel that was made to counter China yet not have ABM capability is in all aspects a white elephant.

This "good enough" line of thinking is exactly why we're stuck behind our neighbors in terms of capabilities in the first place.
I'm agree, heavy frigate we want to build Will act as wide area defence from incomming missile/aircraft threat,.longer radar range should do the job, with smart-s or shorter radar range, there is.no predominance on wide and vast Natuna sea
 
let's just hope it's not iver , that thing is going to be a backbone combatant in future , alman also previously said the kornas project will be evaluated and the previous bidder which is fincantieri will have a chance to present again at the table (even though i kinda skeptical especially with their home country current situation) .
Sorry mas, saya sebetulnya gak punya akun twitter, jadi kepengen kepo mungkin ada yg bisa kasih link atau screenshot twit Alman soal radar?
Untuk masalah kornas seinget saya programnya udah diganti sama PKR kan? Klo emang ada yg mau dievaluasi kemungkinan besar proyek PKR yg gak bakal lanjut. Dan kebetulan Fincantieri ini yg bersaing sama Damen di proyek PKR.
 
APAR, Smart-S and TRS-4D is a multifunction Radar (MFR). If those the options then yes, its could one of both.


Honestly its not that enough, sis. What we need from Iver is not only in terms of dimensions and endurance, also the sensors capability that can go beyond Smart-S radar performance especially for air cover umbrella.
Dengan catatan klo masih sesuai dengan requirement awal.



Indeed with that budget is actually enough, depends to the government's request.
Or, let's say we have 2 different scenarios. First, dengan bujet segitu bisa aja dapet sensor & sistem yg sama dengan aslinya, atau minimal smart-S + smart-L tapi tanpa senjata alias FFBNW.
Second, klo pemerintah mengharuskan pembelian disertai sama senjata, maka kemungkinan dapetnya cuma radar smart-s meskipun senjata yg didapet gak segarang aslinya. Jadi kemungkinannya ya antara kedua itu.

Based on the breakingdefence article the hull itself, the iver class around $133m, weapons, electronics and sensors worth of $207m, that's sums $340m like the article said and our budget around $360m, there is $20m left to.expand,..
 
Considering our most pressing concern right now is KKB's and a potential Marawi situation, there's no need to focus on getting more MBT's (We're not getting more, we're sticking with lighter tanks) or destroyers (we're a littoral country, we're better off getting more frigates and corvettes like the US LCS than a full fledged destroyer). A Arleigh Burke can't police a street corner, a Leopard 2 can't break down someone's door at 2AM to search for weapon caches; you need bodies for that.

Like it or not the reality of our security problems lies in better infantry gear, better infantry training, and long range surveillance than heavy hitting assets. The US didn't send in heavy assets when they first invaded Afghanistan, they sent in small scale SOF units supported by air support, which is what Super Tucanos and PGM equipped strike fighters are. They didn't need destroyers to fight a landlocked country nor stealth fighters to maintain air superiority against a country with no air force; stop talking out of your *** and putting words in my mouth.

And yes, as someone who works in the industry, I fully support stopping the government monopolization of the defense industry. Pindad quality is utter garbage because they don't have to compete with anybody else when they're the only people who make armored vehicles here and the military is obliged to purchase from them under KKIP. PAL and PTDI are forced to compete with local and international companies and thus are forced to constantly innovate, hence why they get foreign orders. Competition is good for business.

I don't get why it's so hard for Indonesian defense enthusiasts to just swallow the pride and admit we don't need to be like the US or Russia or China. We all have different security priorities.
Also, it is in my opinion that a large fleet of PKR sized ships would be better off for us than full sized frigates/destroyers.

For the most, the Navy's main operational duties are very much prioritized among littoral lines. There's no point having true blue water capable ships when the majority of the naval fighting would be conducted between clusters and pockets of islands instead of open oceans

If anything, I think the Navy should get with the US Littoral Combat Ship program. It's specs is basically perfect for the our Navy's role and responsibilities. Plus if you REALLY wanted full AAW capability, the LCS has the added benefit of being able to mount an AN/SPY-1 AEGIS system.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...m-the-corps-by-giving-up-big-amphibious-ships

This is a very interesting article about the US Marine Corps response about the proliferation of AShM's/ASCM's.

The point I'm making here it is that in my opinion it would be better for us to procure more corvette/frigate/LCS sized ships rather than ships with bigger displacements like the Iver-Huidtfelt class.

For the most part we're a very littoral country populated by by islands and shallow waters which prevents bigger ships from operating. A combined force of fast, agile, AShM/ASCM equipped littoral combat ships with a sufficient self defense suite networked together with land based launchers would provide a larger deterrent and greater offensive capability than having 6 destroyer-sized vessels that would have to be strategically placed in our waters. Not to mention it would be cheaper to operate as well.

Tl;Dr I propose we fight smarter not harder.
Because our entire doctrine and constitution pretty much keeps us towards operating within our EEZ? We have literally zero interests abroad. Why bother having big costly ships and send them outside our waters? Flexing? That's not a viable defense strategy.

And even if you want to face adversaries in the high seas, how do you propose replenishing and rearming them? Ship-2-Ship replenishment is not an effective way of keeping our ships battle ready. Eventually they need to re-dock, which you can't do during blue water operations far from your shore. Unlike China we have no naval bases abroad. Within our EEZ we have the strategic advantage of having ports to replenish our ships, Airbases for MPA's and AShW equipped strike fighters, and shore based AShW batteries. The ball is in our court. Why sacrifice all that just to send a couple of ship outside where they'd likely be outnumbered and outgunned? National pride? Formil circle jerking?
:.


The problem is if you're building your forces to counter that of China's, you more or less have to include ABM among capabilities that you need to have. Keep in mind, Chinese doctrine is to saturate an area with missiles before sending in ground troops. A large percentage of their funding goes into missile development. To have a vessel that was made to counter China yet not have ABM capability is in all aspects a white elephant.

This "good enough" line of thinking is exactly why we're stuck behind our neighbors in terms of capabilities in the first place.
Then you agree for us to have big ship?

Sorry mas, saya sebetulnya gak punya akun twitter, jadi kepengen kepo mungkin ada yg bisa kasih link atau screenshot twit Alman soal radar?
Untuk masalah kornas seinget saya programnya udah diganti sama PKR kan? Klo emang ada yg mau dievaluasi kemungkinan besar proyek PKR yg gak bakal lanjut. Dan kebetulan Fincantieri ini yg bersaing sama Damen di proyek PKR.
 
:.



Then you agree for us to have big ship?


Thanks for putting words in my mouth.

Keep in mind, everything I have ever said is in regards to combat capabilities and weapons/sensor outfitting. Furthermore, my last post mentions nothing of displacement and is entirely in regards to ABM capability. Which if you don't already know, does not require a ship of destroyer sized displacement to have. You don't need to have the biggest ship on the block in order for it to exceed "good enough".

Displacement doesn't mean anything if you're stuck having limited sensors and weapons. I understand a lot of people in this country want to have big ships out of a sense of national pride, but that isn't going to help you during a war.

Instead of trying to find ways to prove me wrong, I suggest read more stuff than what's written on the brochure.
 
Based on the breakingdefence article the hull itself, the iver class around $133m, weapons, electronics and sensors worth of $207m, that's sums $340m like the article said and our budget around $360m, there is $20m left to.expand,..

You mean this,
https://breakingdefense.com/2017/07...flex-frigate-for-us-navy-but-whats-real-cost/
Untuk hull'nya sih emang murah, tapi klo full package dengan harga segitu mungkin blum terhitung sama inflasi dll kali ya. Klo soal harga saya emang gak terlalu paham. Ya syukur2 beneran bisa dapet full dengan bujet segitu :)

Ah thank you bro. Disitu dia tulis includes air surveillance radar. So, kemungkinan kandidatnya bukan cuma Smart-S vs TRS-4D?
 
I found PDF detailing on Iver huitfeld programme, including the ship cost, maintenance cost, and its capabilities. Take a look. With our current budget it's actually enough to buy 2 fully equipped iver. I don't know where's the problem, the US$ 340 m is not just a hull, but a whole ship.
 

Attachments

  • 1417702.pdf
    1.3 MB · Views: 55
Ah thank you bro. Disitu dia tulis includes air surveillance radar. So, kemungkinan kandidatnya bukan cuma Smart-S vs TRS-4D?
Idk, Mungkin Sea master 400 boleh juga, sama dengan smart s dan trs ketiganya punya instrumented range 250 km(long range), tapi yang sea master gak perlu muter.
I found PDF detailing on Iver huitfeld programme, including the ship cost, maintenance cost, and its capabilities. Take a look. With our current budget it's actually enough to buy 2 fully equipped iver. I don't know where's the problem, the US$ 340 m is not just a hull, but a whole ship.
The price is always around that number, because of the fixed price model.
But we need to read more stuff than what's written on the brochure.
 
comparative medium range radar for naval vessels (datasheet)
NS100
https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/database/d7/asset/document/ns100-v01_0.pdf

Smart S MK2
https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/database/d7/asset/document/Datasheet Smart_Smk2_DS152_10_12_HR.pdf

Hensoldt TRS 4D
https://www.hensoldt.net/fileadmin/...ems/0810_17_TRS-4D_R_Infoblatt_E_intranet.pdf


some note
*most max instrumented range is at 250-280km range
*NS 100 series, compared to thales Smart S mk2 and TRS4D has the best minimum detection range, almost 10 times that of the competition + it has dual axis multibeam

*TRS 4D has the best claimed Mean time between critical failures (MTBCF) at >3100hr

*SMART S MK2 has the slowest rate of mechanical rotation rate at 13.5/27 rpm compared to the competition at 30rpm. althought the datasheet in the TRS 4D dan NS 100 don't mention the tracking range at full rpm rotation.

*SMART S MK2 has the lowest number of simultaneous detection at 500 compared to 1000/>1000 on the TRS 4D and NS 100.

*TRS 4D appeared to be the lighter at <900kg compared to NS 100 at <1300kg, dont know for the SMART S MK2
 
Last edited:

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom