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trishna_amṛta said:
That is exactly what I was talking about. OMT (Odense Maritime Technology) business model is build upon licensing build (they even clearly stated this in their website), and Damen Shipyard could also play the same business model. The competition between Damen vs OMT for Heavy Frigate / Light Destroyer program is going to be real tight. Although I personally still prefer Iver Huitfeldt-class, the design really corresponding to Indonesia philosophy of nyicil & ngelelesi :yes4:



Why would US denying Indonesia to purchase any of their MOTS products / services?! The way I see it, the whole narrative of US denying Indonesia purchase of their MOTS products / services were mostly created by some European, Russian, or China sales rep :pissed:

From US perspective (Trump administration) as long we have the money, they have the goods #MAGA :usflag::lol:
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Main problem with USA is that its fickle as hell. Every new president might as well be a new king.

The Iranian deal that Trump just shat on comes to mind. The only 'Allies' the USA has consistently treated well is Saudi Arabia since they are both it's biggest supplier of oil as well as a huge military importer, and Israel, which is its biggest donator of campaign funds and also a major weapons importer.

Indonesia is really neither. Our entire reason for spreading out defence imports around were because the American embargoed us repeatedly.
 
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Logam42 said:
Main problem with USA is that its fickle as hell. Every new president might as well be a new king.

The Iranian deal that Trump just shat on comes to mind. The only 'Allies' the USA has consistently treated well is Saudi Arabia since they are both it's biggest supplier of oil as well as a huge military importer, and Israel, which is its biggest donator of campaign funds and also a major weapons importer.

Indonesia is really neither. Our entire reason for spreading out defence imports around were because the American embargoed us repeatedly.
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The US will always think & act in 4 - 8 years term. However looking back to history, the main contributing factor Indonesia were embargoed by US was our own administration at the time (Soeharto) were grossly miscalculated the bigger geopolitical issue. Although I perceived the current Jokowi administration is pretty good at reading the bigger geopolitical issue, in 2019 we will be facing presidential election. And it's will be very easy to predict what would happen to all the defence procurement depending on who's winning the election.

TNI practice of spreading defense procurement by sourcing over multiple supplier is already prudence as it is, however we also end up suffering not only from logistical nightmare but also non-interoperability between Western platforms vs Eastern (Russian & China) platforms.

I like the idea of using European based system for TNI-AL since they already familiar with European system however the price of Sylver VLS along with Aster 15 & Aster 30 missiles are much more expensive compare to the US Mk41 VLS along with SM-2ER & ESSM missiles.

radialv said:
hope black tiger soon replace this old tanks
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From what I can see, the Black Tiger were designed with the sole purpose to replace all of TNI-AD light tank inventory.
 
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radialv said:
hope black tiger soon replace this old tanks
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Nggak tuh, our Army will chase the quantity first until ideal power of Strategic Troops, and then replacing the old ones, that's why the old tanks has been upgraded and repaired and finally to be moved from main strategic troops (Kostrad) to Regular troops (Kodam).

Still a long way to go for replacement and retirement of the old assets.
 
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trishna_amṛta said:
The US will always think & act in 4 - 8 years term. However looking back to history, the main contributing factor Indonesia were embargoed by US was our own administration at the time (Soeharto) were grossly miscalculated the bigger geopolitical issue. Although I perceived the current Jokowi administration is pretty good at reading the bigger geopolitical issue, in 2019 we will be facing presidential election. And it's will be very easy to predict what would happen to all the defence procurement depending on who's winning the election.

TNI practice of spreading defense procurement by sourcing over multiple supplier is already prudence as it is, however we also end up suffering not only from logistical nightmare but also non-interoperability between Western platforms vs Eastern (Russian & China) platforms.

I like the idea of using European based system for TNI-AL since they already familiar with European system however the price of Sylver VLS along with Aster 15 & Aster 30 missiles are much more expensive compare to the US Mk41 VLS along with SM-2ER & ESSM missiles.



From what I can see, the Black Tiger were designed with the sole purpose to replace all of TNI-AD light tank inventory.
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Just because Soeharto is in the past and we are now fully democratic country it doesn't mean that we are not prone to future embargo from stronger countries. One day, there is a chance that Indonesians will choose the wrong leader in the eye of the West. Such wrong leader is now in power in Philippines ( Duterte ). Belgium is now blocking sales of it's 105mm guns to Philippine. Canada is blocking the sale of Bell 412 helis. The Philippine military modernization program hits a stumbling block, and yet, Philippine is one of the oldest democratic country in Asia.
 
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Star Bugs said:
Just because Soeharto is in the past and we are now fully democratic country it doesn't mean that we are not prone to future embargo from stronger countries. One day, there is a chance that Indonesians will choose the wrong leader in the eye of the West.
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I actually was about to mention about it in my previous post, however I've decided to avoid domestic politic as best as possible.

Star Bugs said:
Such wrong leader is now in power in Philippines ( Duterte ). Belgium is now blocking sales of it's 105mm guns to Philippine. Canada is blocking the sale of Bell 412 helis. The Philippine military modernization program hits a stumbling block, and yet, Philippine is one of the oldest democratic country in Asia.
Click to expand...

Looking back to history, back in early 1983 to early 1984 there was something that the Indonesian medias refer as "PeTrus (Penembakan Misterius) :sniper:" and the operation in general was a success :tup:. The least known fact about the operation is there was plenty of "wrong-target" which usually happen due to similar sounding name or similar looking face :tsk:. Anyway the operation doesn't receive any foreign condemnation or any significant attention from foreign medias, and the main reason for this could be attribute to Soeharto crafty diplomatic & lobbying effort which is an ability / skill that Philippine Duterte doesn't have :(.

The Belgium embargo of arms export against Philippine is also the main reason we can't export the Black Tiger tank to the Philippine. Unless Philippine willing to footing the bill of integrating different turret for the tank I don't see any chance we could exporting the tank to them.
 
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trishna_amṛta said:
The Belgium embargo of arms export against Philippine is also the main reason we can't export the Black Tiger tank to the Philippine. Unless Philippine willing to footing the bill of integrating different turret for the tank I don't see any chance we could exporting the tank to them.
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Why not? Iinm...an interview with FNSS CEO during Indo Defence the CMI 3105 turret was chosen by TNI. I think the Philippines can choose other type of turret for their needs rather than CMI products like for example the Leonardo Hitfact 105mm.

http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/hitfact-105-120mm

Dont know if CMI have an exclusive deal with FNSS/Pindad for their turret.
 
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There's an article in the Jakarta Post wondering whether Indonesia should continue involvement in the KF-X/IF-X program, but it's behind a paywall/subscription necessary.

Has anyone here who's subscribed read the article? Would very much like to learn what Indonesian concerns might be.
 
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trishna_amṛta said:
Looking back to history, back in early 1983 to early 1984 there was something that the Indonesian medias refer as "PeTrus (Penembakan Misterius) :sniper:" and the operation in general was a success :tup:. The least known fact about the operation is there was plenty of "wrong-target" which usually happen due to similar sounding name or similar looking face :tsk:. Anyway the operation doesn't receive any foreign condemnation or any significant attention from foreign medias, and the main reason for this could be attribute to Soeharto crafty diplomatic & lobbying effort which is an ability / skill that Philippine Duterte doesn't have :(.
Click to expand...

Crafty diplomacy wasn't enough to save Indonesia. Back in then there was no CNN, no "Breaking News", no local LSM, no medsos. The term 'citizen journalism' wasn't even born yet, and communism was still a threat for the West so nobody cared about those thugs being shot in the head by petrus. But the as soon as CNN and BBC give live and direct satellite broadcasting, Indonesia was in trouble when the 'Insiden Dili' or Santa Cruz incident took place and CMIIW, US threw military embargo at Indonesia.

mandala said:
Why not? Iinm...an interview with FNSS CEO during Indo Defence the CMI 3105 turret was chosen by TNI. I think the Philippines can choose other type of turret for their needs rather than CMI products like for example the Leonardo Hitfact 105mm.

http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/hitfact-105-120mm

Dont know if CMI have an exclusive deal with FNSS/Pindad for their turret.
Click to expand...

I doubt changing different turrets is as easy as Plug-N-Play. As trishna_amṛta said somebody has to pay for the integration cost of new turret, and it ain't gonna be cheap.
 
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mandala said:
Why not? Iinm...an interview with FNSS CEO during Indo Defence the CMI 3105 turret was chosen by TNI. I think the Philippines can choose other type of turret for their needs rather than CMI products like for example the Leonardo Hitfact 105mm.

http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/hitfact-105-120mm

Dont know if CMI have an exclusive deal with FNSS/Pindad for their turret.
Click to expand...

Integrating new turret would entitled additional R&D cost. Neither the FNSS or PT. Pindad has the inclination to invest additional funding for it without any guarantee of significant quantity of order. And from what I've read elsewhere, Philippine tank acquisition program is only for 30 tanks at best, which is not enough to justify the additional cost of integrating different turret.

AlohanAkua said:
There's an article in the Jakarta Post wondering whether Indonesia should continue involvement in the KF-X/IF-X program, but it's behind a paywall/subscription necessary.

Has anyone here who's subscribed read the article? Would very much like to learn what Indonesian concerns might be.
Click to expand...

I'm not subscriber to any Indonesia medias (most of them only selling bogus / sensational news anyway), however as for KF-X / IF-X program, it's still on schedule, what you've read is Indonesia media who copy-paste a news article of IHS Jane's and publishing it without further verification. The main reason for the late payment is there is "administrative mishap" in Indonesia DoD and so far it has been rectified. However there is ongoing re-negotiation regarding future export of the plane produce by Indonesia to other nation.
 
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