Indo-Russian Relationship Thread

[Marshal]

Russian Defence Minister to visit India to negotiate deals

Press Trust Of India / New Delhi September 26, 2008, 12:40 IST
http://www.business-standard.com/india/storypage.php?tp=on
In an effort to further military relations with India, Russian Defence Minister Anatoly Serdyukov will be here on a three-day visit to attend an inter-governmental commission of the two countries and to negotiate key deals with New Delhi.

Among the issues Serdyukov will discuss with his Indian counterpart, A K Antony, are the renewed price negotiations for the $1.5 billion Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier, plans for developing a joint fifth generation fighter aircraft and medium transport aircraft, and T-90 tanks technology transfer, Defence Ministry sources said today.

He is likely to resolve the price issue of Gorshkov, which is currently undergoing a refit at the Sevmash Shipyard in Russia, during his talks with Antony.

Russians have been demanding an additional $1.2 billion for the refit of the aircraft carrier.

Asked about the negotiations on Wednesday, Antony had said the details of the negotiations would be known after the meeting with his Russian counterpart.

Serdyukov will arrive at the Palam technical area by a special flight at 18.10 hours on Sunday.

After lay a wreath at the Amar Jawan Jyothi at India Gate on Monday morning, he would be presented a Guard of Honour at South Block by the Indian armed forces.

After a half-hour-long meeting with Antony at his office, the Russian Defence Minister will co-chair the India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission for Military and Technical Commission, an unique arrangement that New Delhi has only with Moscow, along with the former at DRDO Bhawan Auditorium, sources said.

 

[Marshal]

IAF to procure MI-17 V5 choppers from Russia
IAF to procure MI-17 V5 choppers from Russia www.idrw.org / Indian Defense Research Wing
BY : PTI

The Indian Air Force is likely to add MI-17 V5 medium lift helicopters in its fleet as negotiations to procure them from Russia are in final stages, a senior IAF official said today.
"Our negotiations are in the final stages with Russia. In the next three months, we will sign a contract with them. After two-three years of signing of the contract, we will start the procurement of these helicopters," Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Maintenance Command, Air Marshal Gautam Nayyar told reporters here.

These would replace MI-8 helicopters, which have outlived their life, he said, adding once these machines are procured, they will help tide over the problems faced by helicopters in high altitudes of Siachin and Ladhak.

He said the MI-17V5 will have modern avionic equipment and their engine performance will be better than the existing helicopters.

"They will be very effective in the high altitude areas. MI-17V5 will gradually replace the MI-8 helicopters of IAF," he said, adding at present "we have 50 MI-8 and their estimated life span is 35 years. However, they all are 38 years old and we will replace them with 80 MI-17V5." To a question, he said in India there are 13 Base Repair Depots (BRDs) that look after the maintenance of air crafts and other related equipment and Rs 500 crore would be pumped in over the next few years for their upgradation and modernisation.

To another question, Nayyar admitted that IAF was not getting enough quality engineers as IIT graduates are not forthcoming. But he hoped that with the implementation of the sixth pay commission, things would change and graduates from premier institutions would choose IAF as a career.

He also said that the IAF was also planning to open a Rs-200 crore world class engineering college in Bangalore.

 

[nitesh]

little info about russian sub fleet, this schuka B is on board Akula (Nerpa), where also it can find the way... any guessing:
I think jliu can comment better:

KP.RU // Russia’s Shchuka and Dolphin ships are a force to be reckoned with for the U.S.

How is the Russian navy stronger than the U.S. fleet
KP.RU, Viktor Baranets — 25.09.2008
In the last issue of our weekly, KP presented readers with a short history of nuclear submarines. Today, military expert Mikhail Polezhaev and KP correspondent, Colonel Viktor Baranets, compare the world’s two strongest naval powers.

KP: Mikhail Aleksandrovich, how many nuclear submarines are in the U.S. and Russia?

Polazhaev: We’re only counting submarines with ballistic missiles, correct? If so, Russia only has 12 . Their average age is 26 years old. We don’t have submarines that carry more than 16 missiles. The basis of our fleet is 6 Dolphin submarine carriers, which go by the NATO codename Delta-IV. The U.S. has 18 Ohio submarines. Four are undergoing repairs and modernization. Each submarine carries 24 missiles.

KP: So we’re losing to the U.S. in terms of the number of our submarines and their nuclear-missile potential?

Polazhaev: That’s obvious .

KP: The Americans say that in the event of a non-nuclear war, Russia’s submarines will be destroyed within 12-15 days. They say our submarines are loud and easy to capture and sink, even with regular torpedoes and bombs. Is that a bluff?

Polazhaev: Even the most invisible submarines makes noise. Everything makes noise: mechanisms, devices, screws and the water surrounding the submarine. Each submarine has its own specific sound. Whoever hears -- meaning discovers -- the enemy first is victorious. And the one hears first has less noise and more sensitive acoustics. This is why a key facet in submarine building is reducing noise. The U.S. nuclear submarine program is known for maintaining superior detection at long distances and mastering noise reduction.

Ears for submarines

KP: Based on your comments, it seems that we’re losing to the Americans in terms of the number of our arms and their noise level and hydro-acoustic ability. You’re risking making our special agents very angry.

Polazhaev: Arguments about who is stronger and weaker are purely theoretical. Only real-time events are able to reveal the true state of affairs -- meaning war. Today, in peaceful conditions, submarines follow each other attentively, studying their enemy’s defining characteristics. For example, the American submarine called the Los Angeles and the Russian Shchuka (codenamed Victor-III in the U.S.) are nearly identical ships. However, the Americans think the Shchuka can detect the Los Angeles in deep waters at a distance of only 125 miles, while the Los Angeles can detect the Shchuka at a distance of almost 500 miles.

KP: In other words, the hydro-acoustics of the Los Angeles are three times more powerful?

Polazhaev: The Americans can think whatever they’d like. An interesting story comes to mind. Twenty years ago, we held a joint sailing and anti-submarine defense operation with the U.S. forces. As a result, it became clear that in the event that the Soviet Union called a fleet of modern nuclear submarines into action en masse, the U.S. navy wouldn’t be capable of organizing an effective defense. Even the Shchuka ships showed professional combat qualities.

KP: When you speak with our submarine sailors, they often tell tall tales about how they have almost scratched the underbellies of U.S. ships without the Americans even knowing.

Polazhaev: Would you like to hear a true story? In the winter of 1996, the Russian Embassy in London called the commanding officers of the British navy and requested they lend assistance to a sailor on board our Shchuka. He had come down with peritonitis, which can only be treated at a hospital. They agreed. The Shchuka surfaced and the Glasgow destroyer approached, picked up the sick individual and took him to shore. The British media was immediately confused. At the time the negotiations were being held in London to evacuate the sailor, NATO anti-submarine maneuvers were being conducted in the area where the Shchuka was located. But they only saw the submarine when it hit the surface to pass along the sick sailor.

It’s not all bad

KP: How would you rate the technical capabilities of the Russian and U.S. nuclear submarines that are currently in action?

Polazhaev: The Shchuka has a completely modern “offspring” -- called the Shchuka-B. Its level of noise is 4-4.5 times lower than its “mother’s.” We’ve even surpassed the Americans in this regard. The submarine’s Skat-3 hydro-acoustic system has increased its potential three times and is basically on level with the U.S. AN/BQQ-5.

In addition, the new Shchuka ships have an unparalleled submarine detection system that traces ships based on their wakes hours after their creation. The Shchuka-Bs will compete with the Virginia submarines that aren’t detectable by hydro-acoustics when patrolling at speeds up to 6-8 knots. This is as far as submarine-hunters are concerned. Our missile carriers have also improved. U.S. submarines like the Los Angeles can detect our Dolphins at a distance no greater than 30 kilometers in no-wind conditions. When the wind is blowing, the distance decreases to 10 kilometers, or the Dolphins aren’t detected at all. These are the submarines that have been armed with the Sineva ballistic missiles since their modernization.

KP: How do the agreements on reducing nuclear arms affect the Russian and U.S. nuclear submarines?

Polazhaev: The U.S. navy’s nuclear arms fit the framework of the agreement almost ideally, without having to do any damage to their combat potential. But ours… In 1992, we had 2,792 nuclear warheads on 58 ships. In mid-1998, the number of warheads decreased to 1,854 and the number of submarines to 26. When the agreement was signed in 1993, it was supposed Russia would have 23-25 combat-ready submarine cruisers by 2003.

KP: But a nuclear fleet isn’t only submarines…

Polazhaev: The fleet’s core is the people on board, but how can we even mention preparation if our submarines made only three campaigns last year. Fewer than in 2006! Meanwhile, the Americans always have 7 submarines at sea.

Viktor Baranets is waiting for your feedback on our site

 

[nitesh]

India, Russia to iron out defence problems-India-The Times of India

India, Russia to iron out defence problems
29 Sep 2008, 0343 hrs IST, Rajat Pandit,TNN

NEW DELHI: Even as India and US get into a tight strategic clinch, both New Delhi and Moscow are keen to bring the heady romance of yesteryears back into their lives, especially in the military arena.

Defence minister A K Antony and his Russian counterpart Anatoly Serdyukov will hold high-level delegation meetings on Monday in a bid to resolve problems dogging ongoing mega military projects for Sukhoi-30MKI fighters, T-90S main-battle tanks, stealth frigates and missile destroyers. The eighth meeting of the Indo-Russian inter-governmental commission on military-technical cooperation (IRIGC-MTC) will also try to iron out differences on joint futuristic projects for the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) and multi-role transport aircraft (MRTA).

That the long-standing Indo-Russian defence partnership, which saw India's military imports and tie-ups with Russia exceeding $35 billion since the 1960s, has run into rough weather is no longer a secret. India is now increasingly looking at US — apart from Israel and France — to procure high-tech weapons and platforms. But the fact also remains that Russia will continue to remain India's largest defence supplier for several years to come, with ongoing contracts and projects in the pipeline worth well over $15 billion.

"Russia is the only country with which we have such a commission (IRIGC-MTC)," said Antony, affirming that the Indo-Russian strategic partnership will continue to head north. The meeting will also pave the way for the eventual inking of the new pact for aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov's refit, which has caused bitter wrangling between the two sides.

As earlier reported by TOI, India may now have to pay as much as $2 billion more to get the 44,570-tonne carrier by end-2012, over and above the original $1.5 billion package deal of January 2004 for a fully-refurbished Gorshkov and 16 MiG-29Ks. Moreover, the defence ministry recently approved the Navy's case for acquisition of 29 more MiG-29Ks for Rs 5,380 crore.

India, of course, is upset with Russia for not sticking to delivery schedules, creating roadblocks in transfer of technology (ToT), jacking up costs midway through execution of agreements and failing to provide uninterrupted supply of spares. ToT problems, for instance, have dogged the indigenous manufacture of both the T-90S and the Sukhoi-30MKI projects despite Russia earning big bucks in the huge contracts.

Russia's delay in giving "full ToT" for India's plan to manufacture 1,000 T-90S tanks has taken place even after New Delhi first imported 310 of these tanks for over Rs 3,625 crore under a February 2001 contract, and then signed another Rs 4,900 crore contract in November 2007 to import 347 more tanks. The story of ToT delays and cost escalations is the same in the contracts for 230 Sukhoi-30MKI fighters, overall worth around $8.5 billion.

 

[Goodperson]

India, Russia extend military commission tenure till 2020-India-The Times of India

 

[nitesh]

India, Russia to develop 2 versions of 5th-generation fighter

29/ 09/ 2008



NEW DELHI, September 29 (RIA Novosti) - Russia and India will jointly develop two versions of a new fifth-generation fighter, the head of an Indian defense company said on Monday.

A Russian-Indian advanced multirole fighter is being developed by Sukhoi, which is part of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), along with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), under an intergovernmental agreement signed in October 2007.

"The aircraft will have different wings, electronics and radars," HAL Chairman Ashok K. Baweja said after a meeting of the Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission on military technical cooperation in New Delhi.

He also said India will develop a two-seat version to meet the requirements of the Indian air superiority doctrine, while Russia will develop a single-seat fighter.

Russia's Sukhoi aircraft maker earlier said it had started the construction of a prototype of the fifth-generation fighter, which will feature high maneuverability and stealth to ensure air superiority and precision in destroying ground and sea targets.

The Russian version will be built at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aircraft-manufacturing plant in Russia's Far East.

Flight tests of the fifth-generation fighter will begin as early as 2009, and mass production of the aircraft may start by 2015, Sukhoi said.

Russia's military cooperation with India goes back nearly half a century, and the country accounts for about 40% of Russian arms exports.

Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission sessions are held annually and alternate between New Delhi and Moscow. The previous meeting took place in the Russian capital in October 2007.

RIA Novosti - World - India, Russia to develop 2 versions of 5th-generation fighter

 

[nitesh]

India Today - India's most widely read magazine

India, Russia to have different versions of same fighter plane

Sandeep Unnithan
New Delhi, September 29, 2008

The Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) being jointly developed by India and Russia will look substantially different for the two countries. While the Russian version will be a single-pilot fighter, the Indian variant will have a twin-seat configuration based on its operational doctrine which calls for greater radius of combat operations.

"The Indian FGFA is significantly different from the Rusisan aircraft because a second pilot means the addition of another dimension, development of wings and control surfaces," said Ashok Baweja, chairman of the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which is developing the aircraft alongwith Russia's Sukhoi design bureau.

Speaking to media persons at the eighth Indo-Russian Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation (IRIGC), Baweja said that both sides had moved closer towards identifying the key areas of participation in the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft Programme (FGFA) for which both countries had signed a joint agreement in 2007. India would bring into play its expertise in composites, lightweight high-strength materials that significantly bring down the weight of an aeronautical platform.

The Russian aircraft is thus called because it is a successor to virtually every fourth and 4.5 generation fighter aircraft like the MiG-29 and Su-30 MKI in the inventories of both countries. It has been dubbed the 'Raptorski' for its similarity to the US F-22 Raptor that entered squadron service this year.


The first prototype of the Sukhoi Design Bureau's PAK-FA 'T-50' fighter aircraft is set to fly in Russia next year. "We are in the process of defining what part of the contract to give to the Indian production agencies,'' said Alexey Fedorov, president of the United Aircraft Corporation, the umbrella organization of Russian fixed-wing aircraft manufacturers. Fedorov said that the process of identifying the participation of Indian partners in the FGFA would be completed by the year-end or in the shortest possible time.

According to Baweja, it features stealth, or a drastic reduction in the aircraft's radar cross-section or 'signature', and the ability to 'super cruise' or jet engines that fly stealthily without engaging noisy afterburners even at supersonic speeds, embedded weapons with the capability to engage multiple ground, sea and air targets and seamless communication between the fighter, other aircraft and ground stations.
Baweja said that the first prototype of the FGFA was to fly next year with the ALF-31 FP engine. He said he would want an engine that had 15 to 20 per cent more growth than this engine in the final aircraft configuration. The FGFA is to enter squadron service by 2015 and will replace at least three classes of aircraft in the IAF.

The joint-venture borrows heavily from the success of the Brahmos project but seems fated to repeat its story. By the 1990s, Russia, the world's only operator of supersonic surface-to-surface missiles, had already perfected the Yakhont missile but lacked the funds to pursue its development. Indian stepped in with the finance in 1998 and the missile was re-launched as the Brahmos.

Designs for the PAK-FA have already been frozen by the Sukhoi design bureau, which means that Indian aircraft engineers have already missed out on the critical knowledge curve of aircraft design. Also, the unequal status of the Indian and Russian aviation industries means India will be the junior partner contributing very little except finance. "So if we have missed out on the design phase, we have to analyse the cost-benefits of acquiring only super cruise and stealth technology for $ 10 billion," asks Air Vice Marshal Kak.

 

[nitesh]

Russia Offers India Joint Development Deal - Defense News

NEW DELHI (AFP) — Russia on Monday offered its Cold War ally India the chance to jointly develop weapon systems in a bid to remain New Delhi's main provider of weapons.

With India increasingly looking elsewhere for its armament needs, visiting Russian Defence Minister Anatoly Serdyukov presented a deal in which India would develop military hardware alongside Russia, rather than buying it.

"Particular attention in this new programme will be paid to scientific research and joint development and construction," Serdyukov told reporters after talks with his Indian counterpart A.K. Antony.

"In this agreement, concrete steps will be undertaken to achieve transition relations from vendor and buyer to partnership," Serdyukov said.

Russia accounts for 70 percent of Indian military equipment, but late deliveries and commercial disagreements have pushed New Delhi towards other suppliers, including the United States, France, Britain and Israel.

In 2005, India signed a 10-year defence pact with the United States in "a clear indication that New Delhi is planning to broaden the base of its defence procurements," said analyst C. Uday Bhaskar.

In March this year, New Delhi said it planned to buy six Hercules transport planes from Lockheed Martin for nearly one billion dollars, marking the country's biggest military aircraft deal with the United States.

Though India's defence budget is a relatively low 2.3 percent of its gross domestic product, the country is one of the world's top buyers of military hardware.

Antony also said Monday that both sides were close to resolving a protracted dispute over the cost of a Soviet-era aircraft carrier, which will be now sold at a higher price to the Indian navy in 2011.

The price escalation was due to "the scope of the refit and repairs, which have increased," Antony said, adding Russia had been "a trusted friend" of India for many years.

Under existing deals, India will also buy 347 T-90 battle tanks from Russia and manufacture another 1,000 tanks with Russian help, Antony said.

The two countries, which have defense projects worth $15 billion in the pipeline, also agreed to extend a military cooperation agreement by another 10 years.

 

[Ali.009]

I wonder why. Russians should move back since Indian government is trying to be-frand with US/Isreal more.

 

[nitesh]

I wonder why. Russians should move back since Indian government is trying to be-frand with US/Isreal more.

Simple, because everybody wants to be friend with India.

 

[su-47]

I wonder why. Russians should move back since Indian government is trying to be-frand with US/Isreal more.

who said u cant have more than one friend at a time?

besides, international politics is not about friends or enemies. it is about interests.

if it serves russia's interests to have JVs with india, then they'll pursue it.

 

[nitesh]

I think this belongs here also, a lot can be understood about India Russia relationship

India Today - India?s most widely read magazine.

N-submarine, what N-submarine?
Sandeep Unnithan
New Delhi, September 30, 2008

Russian Defence Minister Anatoly Serdyukov allowed a smile to crease his grim visage just once during his joint press conference with his Indian counterpart A K Antony on Monday. It wasn’t a joke. It was a reporter’s question about ‘speculative reports’ in the Indian media about the impending lease of a Russian nuclear-powered attack submarine.

“A lot of things are being discussed in the media, but we don’t know what it is,” was Serdyukov’s pithy reply. The fact is that the Nerpa, (to be commissioned as the INS Chakra) has begun sea trials in the Russian far eastern shipyard of Komsomolsk-on-Amur in June this year.

Next month, a first batch of Indian crew are to board the submarine as she begins her sea trials in the Pacific Ocean off Vladivostok. The reluctance of either India or Russia to acknowledge the existence of the submarine, by now the worst kept secret, is a mystery.

A lot of water has flowed under the bridge since both India and Russia signed a secret deal in 2004 for leasing the submarine-- the thought of India being allowed to conduct legitimate nuclear trade without signing the NPT would have been laughed at and energy prices had not made Russia the assertive power it is today.

The lease is also not without precedent—the former Soviet Union leased an older N-sub on a three-year lease in 1987. The United States, the only power capable of creating a fuss over the lease, knows about the project but is yet to officially comment.

Analysts say the US couldn’t care less as long as it helped India contain a rising China which has embarked on a massive post-Cold War expansion of its underwater arm.

Both India and Russia, however, continue to hold on to the secrecy clause they signed with the contract . An Indian defence ministry official gives it a Harry Potter-esque moniker, ‘the project we do not speak about’.

The Russian version of ‘Project India’ is undoubtedly a translated version of the same. Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta was the first to speak about the project when he stated last year that it was being leased to train Indian crews to man the indigenous nuclear submarine, the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) currently building at Visakhapatnam. The Chakra is due for commissioning by August 15 next year. Too early to tell if Serdyukov will be at the press conference then.

 

[Marshal]

India, Russia to have different versions of same fighter plane

Sandeep Unnithan
New Delhi, September 29, 2008

The Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) being jointly developed by India and Russia will look substantially different for the two countries. While the Russian version will be a single-pilot fighter, the Indian variant will have a twin-seat configuration based on its operational doctrine which calls for greater radius of combat operations.

"The Indian FGFA is significantly different from the Rusisan aircraft because a second pilot means the addition of another dimension, development of wings and control surfaces," said Ashok Baweja, chairman of the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which is developing the aircraft alongwith Russia's Sukhoi design bureau.

Speaking to mediapersons at the eighth Indo-Russian Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation (IRIGC), Baweja said that both sides had moved closer towards identifying the key areas of participation in the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft Programme (FGFA) for which both countries had signed a joint agreement in 2007. India would bring into play its expertise in composites, lightweight high-strength materials that significantly bring down the weight of an aeronautical platform.

The Russian aircraft is thus called because it is a successor to virtually every fourth and 4.5 generation fighter aircraft like the MiG-29 and Su-30 MKI in the inventories of both countries. It has been dubbed the 'Raptorski' for its similarity to the US F-22 Raptor that entered squadron service this year.


The first prototype of the Sukhoi Design Bureau's PAK-FA 'T-50' fighter aircraft is set to fly in Russia next year. "We are in the process of defining what part of the contract to give to the Indian production agencies,'' said Alexey Fedorov, president of the United Aircraft Corporation, the umbrella organization of Russian fixed-wing aircraft manufacturers. Fedorov said that the process of identifying the participation of Indian partners in the FGFA would be completed by the year-end or in the shortest possible time.

According to Baweja, it features stealth, or a drastic reduction in the aircraft's radar cross-section or 'signature', and the ability to 'super cruise' or jet engines that fly stealthily without engaging noisy afterburners even at supersonic speeds, embedded weapons with the capability to engage multiple ground, sea and air targets and seamless communication between the fighter, other aircraft and ground stations.
Baweja said that the first prototype of the FGFA was to fly next year with the ALF-31 FP engine. He said he would want an engine that had 15 to 20 per cent more growth than this engine in the final aircraft configuration. The FGFA is to enter squadron service by 2015 and will replace at least three classes of aircraft in the IAF.

The joint-venture borrows heavily from the success of the Brahmos project but seems fated to repeat its story. By the 1990s, Russia, the world's only operator of supersonic surface-to-surface missiles, had already perfected the Yakhont missile but lacked the funds to pursue its development. Indian stepped in with the finance in 1998 and the missile was re-launched as the Brahmos.

Designs for the PAK-FA have already been frozen by the Sukhoi design bureau, which means that Indian aircraft engineers have already missed out on the critical knowledge curve of aircraft design. Also, the unequal status of the Indian and Russian aviation industries means India will be the junior partner contributing very little except finance. "So if we have missed out on the design phase, we have to analyse the cost-benefits of acquiring only super cruise and stealth technology for $ 10 billion," asks Air Vice Marshal Kak.
http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index.php?option=com_content .

 

[Christian]

Indo-russian relations goes back to decades. Its because of their support we survived the 90's and managed to build the atomic bomb. I hope this freindship lasts for centuries to come.

 

[tallboy123]

^^^LOL
we made nukes in 1974....
And helped us by sending Nuke subs to defend against american nuclear carrier..

So the word survived is not appropriate..
Co-operated or helped is better