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Indo Aryan Languages of South Asia

Problem is no one will accept Pakistan as leader. Would Iranians or Arabs accept Pakistan as a leader. Only rich countries like US Russia Saudi Arabia can become leaders not countries like Pakistan
And Pakistan movement was not about creating a refugee camp for Muslims from all over the world or leader of the Muslim world

Yep. One of the great mughal. Babar was good.
Akbar was so so but very promoted by kuffar because he created his own religion, much to the like it king Arthur. And rest , he didn't do much. So as 2 generations after him. And brought the empire down and have tough time to aurangzaib. And west is after him because he was much more orthodox and set a great example for others ( Muslims ) to follow.
I wonder what India would be like without their arrival. Land of mud and waste ?
Mughals made the foundation of India which the British overtook and handed down to Hindus. Himalayan subcontinent was divided among countless principalities prior to the Mughals. PAKISTAN has no future if our people forget the past and try to become failed middle eastern.
 
Initially, this post was all about linguistics. It later turned into do as you wish thread. Dissapointing.

Aessain tarha e gal ton gal nikaldy ae.:lol:
Now, only a small numbers of posts, on this thread, relate to the linguistics.:p:
 
Aessain tarha e gal ton gal nikaldy ae.:lol:
Now, only a small numbers of posts, on this thread, relate to the linguistics.:p:
When the official language was Farsi, our country was the richest in the world. When the language became English, we are seeking loans from every one. What a downfall ! English educated Pakistanis have ruined the nation. Becoming a government clerk or working abroad has become the leading dream.

what i deduced from this thread..

Everyone want to be white Aryan..
Aryan theory is a mythical hypothesis without any real substantiation in modern academia.
 
Aryan theory is a mythical hypothesis without any real substantiation in modern academia.

That's what indians and indian origin people believe claim or those whose knowledge comes from "vedas".

NO mainstream academia will say such a thing.

I quote an earlier post which was banned on this forum

"The only person in Pakistan who has his full genome tested is Dr. Atta-ur-Rahman who is 6th person in the world to have full human genome tested.

Out of 280,000, more than and I repeat more than 200,000 of his SNPs are western Europeans meaning Aryans. That is he has 71 percent of his genome from Europe and he is majority European. NOT indus. He is arayn like Most of Pakistanis by majority of his genes. Paper on him is available somewhere online.

Even though he was born in new dehli, he is originally punjabi. He is not white in skin color but has light brown skin yet majority of his genome is European. You can tell that because of his aryan skull and facial feature which are found in abundance in Pakistan but NOT in india"

Your academia has no merit clearly and lives in their delusions. Facts are facts. its as simple.

I personally don't care about Aryans or not Aryans. I only care about keeping ourselves away from indians. here is why:

This is because looking at indians in india, having love affairs (very common) and even marriages at times regardless of religion makes me worried as muslim. We don't want that in pakistan and wants to therefore keep indians away. I don't want my children tomorrow to believe this india-pakistan same nonsense and end up having "haram" relationship driven by false "idea of ethnic" affiliation with indians.

I even unfriended and stopped talking to a relative in UK on facebook who was having an affair with a Sikh lady. Indians live far away and they are having affairs or wanna have affairs with us. IF they live with us, what would happen then. So people like me want to reclaim our uniqueness, teach our children that so they are not drawn towards indians and so that we can preserve Islam.

Ethnicity is only things that works with indians. That is we use "ethnicity" as a tool to keep indians away from unwanted indian attention since no other reasoning such as nationalism, religion works on indians. They can only be pushed away using a ethnicity card where they are forced to accept our distinct ethnicities and identities. Most of us do look different and have our unique features and so why not use that if that works. Whatever works.

Indians are obsessed with Pakistan and internet is full of their obsession with Pakistani looks. its a fact. So they constantly want to believe and the feed themselves like this post above, with "alternative academic history" largely lead by "small number of racist Europeans or mostly indians themselves". Hence they ignore the fact the fact a large number of Pakistanis derive their heritage outside of india. Which is not true for indians.

Wherever we go indian relentlessly shower us with their unwanted attention "wanna be friends" or indian ladies "wanna be lovers" or whatever, telling us in their obsession that "we and they are same", again and again and again. it never ends. They don't listen that such relationships are haram in our way. According to indians, We are not even suppose to love or like other muslims from other countries, since supposedly indians have this right on us. In fact they try to instill hatred of other muslims nations so that they are only left that we can love.

Eventually people like me developed this defense mechanism where "truth" of our uniqueness is brought forward to tell them, "leave us alone, please".


You cannot even sit in park or in a train without some indian seeing you and sitting next to you and then forcing themselves upon you, the moment they realize you are from a "better" country Pakistan. There is no peaceful place where they leave us alone.

They justify their "enforced friendship" by constantly forcing us to accept their "alternative and debunked academic history" where they are exactly the same as Pakistanis.

This way they want to create a space where they feel accepted by the very people they unconsciously see as "superior" and not the same at all. Otherwise why not just ditch Pakistanis. Why so much chasing of Pakistanis. Why so much need to prove that they are the same as Pakistanis. We don't feel such need.

Pakistanis are NOT just those who have an appearance exactly like average indian. Though we accept them fully as one of our own. They are also Pakistan.

However, Pakistan also include people who have uniquely Pakistani appearance far more common in Pakistan then ever be in india, found in all four provinces and in mohajar community. More often than not, you can always tell when someone is Pakistani or not. that difference is always there. its just a reality. There is no need to feel uncomfortable about it.

Furthermore, half the Pakistan is made up of people ranging from Pashtuns to kashmiris whose origin lie in Iran or euro-Asian regions (the aryan people), which is a historic fact (read above my post half the pakistanis). That's nearly half the Pakistan excluding Punjab or sindh. That's also Pakistan for GOD sake. They don't need to "want to be aryans", They predominantly live in the region historically called "Ariana" or land of aryans. Later these people started moving across indus river settling down in punjab and sindh, intermingling at times , displacing them to india, or killing indigenous yet very SPARSE population in these areas. Hence the rise of aryan people and culture in Punjab and Sindh. Though there were also direct aryan or allied groups (e.g. Scythians) related settlements from russia such as in Taxila in Punjab etc from where they spread across Pakistan.

In 5 to 7 years full human genome test will be a routine. Again do note those so called current genetic tests are not genetic tests. They are haplogroup tests and do not tell us our current gene composition. Only one person Dr Atta-ur-Rahman who was the first south Asian have his full genome tested.

SO when full human genome tests will begin we will see that most Pakistanis are what we say we are.

Those dislike the idea of " aryan" probably are indigenous to india hence the irritation to concept of outside migration to Pakistan. Pakistan is largely a country of migrants. Some from india and a large number from outside of india. All united under islam. That does not means we should not use "ethnicity card" to keep indians away since that's the only reality unconsciously they seem to accept (though not consciously). What else we are suppose to do or tell them. There nothing else to tell.

You are welcome to cherry pick "your alternative academic history" from wherever you like. There is no point keep on arguing over same old. Truth will come out in few years when full genetic tests will be a common place.

Though not relevent, I do want to say those Indians who respect our uniqueness, I genuinly respect them and deal with them respectfully and in a friendly manner.

My desire is to have a future Pakistan and india where indians accept their uniqueness and let us live in our lives so that our children are not influenced by "their alternative history" and drawn in the name of race towards relationships and friendships with them, strictly prohibited by Quran. its about islam and not aryanhood. If the "fact" that they and we are largely different people works, so be it. We will use that.

Note : Aryans are not a race or a people, there is no Aryan blood, according to Vedas You're anything but Aryan.

The name aryans came from a region including iran, afghanistan and the Pakistan on the other side of Indus river, its 2/3 of Pakistan landmass. This regions is refered to as "Ariana" even in your vedas. People of this regions were called "aryans" or arya.

What your current vedas says, I won't comment on it.

Still I am happy NOT to satisfy "vedic criteria" of being aryan. As I said, I could not care less about race.

I am proudly muslim. That's enough for me.

P.S. I apologize to the OP for somewhat not sticking to the topic. but linguistic and ethnicity are interlinked. People who brought or influenced the languages cannot be ignored. Anyway I am out of this thread. It was a mistake, big one. NOT a post again on such threads.

Why don't Indians ever claim to be the same people as Bangladesh, with whom they actually have racial, linguistic, and cultural connections?

They are obsessed with the Pakistani dream, imagining somehow that they are like us in some way.

We are not South Asian, that term is archaic and does not define us. Just like our racial cousins Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey, CARs, we are Eurasian/Southwest Asians/ part of Greater Middle East (if you include Afg and Iran.)

British also ruled Burma, that does not make us the same country as them.

Indian obsession with Pakistan is creepy.

You are absolutely right. They even tell that to local arab shop keepers here. Like literally I go to arab shops and there they tell arabs that British "sowed" this hatred of indians in us otherwise they are still the same as Pakistanis. That Pakistan should rejoin india as if historically we were one people by choice.

Every once a while an indian comes in, starts telling us, he wants to visit pakistan since his "supposed" Pakistani girlfriend is dying for him (yet not sponsoring him). Upon confrontation, that girl always turns out be "an indian" one.

They don't understand that due to bollywood influence, Pakistanis may initially like indians upon first meetings, or show even love for them. But it won't last for long. Overtime, Pakistanis will come back to Pakistan and hatred of indians will resurface after a while, whether in few months or in a year.

This obsession is actually harmful for indian themselves. Because they feed this "india-Pakistan" same nonsense to their children. Their girls have developed their own rather extreme obsession with pakistani men. Which is not healthy for indians in general. They need to segregate and separate themselves if they want to preserve their religions, and their way of life. By this way they'll be doing us a favor too.

Brother throughout my most without realizing, I used the wrong spelling aryana while the correct spelling were "Ariana" for the region bordering indus river from parts of Punjab to iran. since i won't be here, please do remember that Ariana meaning land of aryans it includes roughly 2/3 of Pakistan. Also large number of people settled from Ariana that is from other side of indus river to this side over the years as described above.
 
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That's what indians and indian origin people believe or those whose knowledge comes from "vedas".

I quote an earlier post which was banned on this forum

"The only person in Pakistan who has his full genome tested is Dr. Atta-ur-Rahman who is 6th person in the world to have full human genome tested.

Out of 280,000, more than and I repeat more than 200,000 of his SNPs are western Europeans meaning Aryans. That is he has 71 percent of his genome from Europe and he is majority European. NOT indus. He is arayn like Most of Pakistanis by majority of his genes. Paper on him is available somewhere online.

Even though he was born in new dehli, he is originally punjabi. He is not white in skin color but has light brown skin yet majority of his genome is European. You can tell that because of his aryan skull and facial feature which are found in abundance in Pakistan but NOT in india"

Your academia has no merit clearly and lives in their delusions. Facts are facts. its as simple.

I personally don't care about Aryans or not Aryans. I only care about keeping ourselves away from indians. here is why:

This is because looking at indians in india, having love affairs (very common) and even marriages at times regardless of religion makes me worried as muslim. We don't want that in pakistan and wants to therefore keep indians away. I don't want my children tomorrow to believe this india-pakistan same nonsense and end up having "haram" relationship driven by false "idea of ethnic" affiliation with indians.

I even unfriended and stopped talking to a relative in UK on facebook who was having an affair with a Sikh lady. Indians live far away and they are having affairs or wanna have affairs with us. IF they live with us, what would happen then. So people like me want to reclaim our uniqueness, teach our children that so they are not drawn towards indians and so that we can preserve Islam.

Ethnicity is only things that works with indians. That is we use "ethnicity" as a tool to keep indians away from unwanted indian attention since no other reasoning such as nationalism, religion works on indians. They can only be pushed away using a ethnicity card where they are forced to accept our distinct ethnicities and identities. Most of us do look different and have our unique features and so why not use that if that works. Whatever works.

Indians are obsessed with Pakistan and internet is full of their obsession with Pakistani looks. its a fact. So they constantly want to believe and the feed themselves like this post above, with "alternative academic history" largely lead by "small number of racist Europeans or mostly indians themselves". Hence they ignore the fact the fact a large number of Pakistanis derive their heritage outside of india. Which is not true for indians.

Wherever we go indian relentlessly shower us with their unwanted attention "wanna be friends" or indian ladies "wanna be lovers" or whatever, telling us in their obsession that "we and they are same", again and again and again. it never ends. They don't listen that such relationships are haram in our way. According to indians, We are not even suppose to love or like other muslims from other countries, since supposedly indians have this right on us. In fact they try to instill hatred of other muslims nations so that they are only left that we can love.

Eventually people like me developed this defense mechanism where "truth" of our uniqueness is brought forward to tell them, "leave us alone, please".


You cannot even sit in park or in a train without some indian seeing you and sitting next to you and then forcing themselves upon you, the moment they realize you are from a "better" country Pakistan. There is no peaceful place where they leave us alone.

They justify their "enforced friendship" by constantly forcing us to accept their "alternative and debunked academic history" where they are exactly the same as Pakistanis.

This way they want to create a space where they feel accepted by the very people they unconsciously see as "superior" and not the same at all. Otherwise why not just ditch Pakistanis. Why so much chasing of Pakistanis. Why so much need to prove that they are the same as Pakistanis. We don't feel such need.

Pakistanis are NOT just those who have an appearance exactly like average indian. Though we accept them fully as one of our own. They are also Pakistan.

However, Pakistan also include people who have uniquely Pakistani appearance far more common in Pakistan then ever be in india, found in all four provinces and in mohajar community. More often than not, you can always tell when someone is Pakistani or not. that difference is always there. its just a reality. There is no need to feel uncomfortable about it.

Furthermore, half the Pakistan is made up of people ranging from Pashtuns to kashmiris whose origin lie in Iran or euro-Asian regions (the aryan people), which is a historic fact (read above my post half the pakistanis). That's nearly half the Pakistan excluding Punjab or sindh. That's also Pakistan for GOD sake. They don't need to "want to be aryans", They predominantly live in the region historically called "arayna" or land of aryans. Later these people started moving across indus river settling down in punjab and sindh, intermingling at times , displacing them to india, or killing indigenous yet very SPARSE population in these areas. Hence the rise of aryan people and culture in Punjab and Sindh. Though there were also direct aryan or allied groups (e.g. Scythians) related settlements from russia such as in Taxila in Punjab etc from where they spread across Pakistan.

In 5 to 7 years full human genome test will be a routine. Again do note those so called current genetic tests are not genetic tests. They are haplogroup tests and do not tell us our current gene composition. Only one person Dr Atta-ur-Rahman who was the first south Asian have his full genome tested.

SO when full human genome tests will begin we will see that most Pakistanis are what we say we are.

Those dislike the idea of " aryan" probably are indigenous to india hence the irritation to concept of outside migration to Pakistan. Pakistan is largely a country of migrants. Some from india and a large number from outside of india. All united under islam. That does not means we should not use "ethnicity card" to keep indians away since that's the only reality unconsciously they seem to accept (though not consciously). What else we are suppose to do or tell them. There nothing else to tell.

You are welcome to cherry pick "your alternative academic history" from wherever you like. There is no point keep on arguing over same old. Truth will come out in few years when full genetic tests will be a common place.

Though not relevent, I do want to say those Indians who respect our uniqueness, I genuinly respect them and deal with them respectfully and in a friendly manner.

My desire is to have a future Pakistan and india where indians accept their uniqueness and let us live in our lives so that our children are not influenced by "their alternative history" and drawn in the name of race towards relationships and friendships with them, strictly prohibited by Quran. its about islam and not aryanhood. If the "fact" that they and we are largely different people works, so be it. We will use that.



The name aryans came from a region including iran, afghanistan and the Pakistan on the other side of Indus river, its 2/3 of Pakistan landmass. This regions is refered to as "aryana" even in your vedas. People of this regions were called "aryans" or arya.

What your current vedas says, I won't comment on it.

Still I am proud NOT to satisfy "vedic criteria" of being aryan. As I said, I could not care less about race.

I am proudly muslim. That's enough for me.

P.S. I apologize to the OP for somewhat not sticking to the topic. but linguistic and ethnicity are interlinked. People who brought or influenced the languages cannot be ignored. Anyway I am out of this thread. It was a mistake, big one. NOT a post again on such threads.



You are absolutely right. They even tell that to local arab shop keepers here. Like literally I go to arab shops and there they tell arabs that British "sowed" this hatred of indians in us otherwise they are still the same as Pakistanis. That Pakistan should rejoin india as if historically we were one people by choice.

Every once a while an indian comes in, starts telling us, he wants to visit pakistan since his "supposed" Pakistani girlfriend is dying for him (yet not sponsoring him). Upon confrontation, that girl always turns out be "an indian" one.

They don't understand that due to bollywood influence, Pakistanis may initially like indians upon first meetings, or show even love for them. But it won't last for long. Overtime, Pakistanis will come back to Pakistan and hatred of indians will resurface after a while, whether in few months or in a year.

This obsession is actually harmful for indian themselves. Because they feed this "india-Pakistan" same nonsense to their children. Their girls have developed their own rather extreme obsession with pakistani men. Which is not healthy for indians in general. They need to segregate and separate themselves if they want to preserve their religions, and their way of life. By this way they'll be doing us a favor too.



I donot dispute your claim that Indians and Pakistanis are different people...as you yourself said and as seen by me during my numerous interactions with Pakistanis, majority of Indians and majority of Pakistanis look quite distinct...but around 20 percent are indistinguishable...and this over lap is right across the range....But there are some points you raised that require a compulsory response...
 
Mughals made the foundation of India which the British overtook and handed down to Hindus. Himalayan subcontinent was divided among countless principalities prior to the Mughals. PAKISTAN has no future if our people forget the past and try to become failed middle eastern.
Mughals did not have much grip over modern-day Pakistan, besides major cities such as Lahore, the rest of the territory was often left to autonomous tribes and Kingdoms that would often declare independence the first opportunity they got, an example being Sindh.

Each ethnic group of Pakistan has a famous figure that was responsible for resisting the Mughals, examples include; Abdullah Bhatti among Punjabis, Shah Inayat Shaheed among Sindhis and Khushal Khattak among Pashtuns.
 
I agree there is an overlap but overlap depends on a particular region. Look, this is not really about race or looks. I personal don't care.

I would have interacted in a respectful and friendly manner toward sophisticated educated Indians if they respected whatever difference we have. They don't. They try to dilute those differences in their obsession with Pakistan. Pakistanis largely are different people.

This is not some blind hatred to indians as my post may have conveyed. Let me give you examples to disprove that:

Example 1: A pakistani from Karachi had an indian girlfriend. He made a comment that "she is just a net practice" and he is looking for a wife from Karachi. I went all the way to her flat after a lot of effort to find out where she lives and told her that she is being manipulated and abused. She should stayed away from Pakistanis for her own sake. She did leave him after that. I did that because as a muslim its against my fundamental values to let a human being be treated in a degraded way.

Example 2: another example, I help an other indian girl whose fiance was abusing her. she was made homeless and being non-resident was forced to live on streets. I saw her on street in broken english begging for money. So I put her in a hotel, arranged her ticket and gave her over 1,000 dollars so that she can safely reach her home in india. She took off a week later and reached safely her home as I verified. I remained distant but compassionate during that time. So that she did not see any other meaning but just me helping her as a human being. Once again its because of my islamic values.

The point is I am all for humanity based interactions. I am against "these romantic" relationships outside of religion which inevitably happen when people closely interact and often lead to abuse as the first example illustrates. I myself just want to marry a muslim girl from muslim majority countries and will look for one in near future when I am done certain things i have to do.

An indian will ultimately abuse Pakistanis. For example some overseas indian muslims who married Pakistanis girls (Very rare but happens, mostly only from Punjab or mohajar community living abroad) and mistreated them, beat them since they are pakistanis and indians men inevitably are attracted to their own kind, the most. That initial obsession with Pakistanis wears off over time, unless they were very similar in most if not all ways and that's extremely rare. Mohajar may have high success rate but that's because they marry relatives mostly. Rest of time indian men become disillusioned with Pakistani women once married. Those indian men then spend time fantasizing indian ladies. Because that what they saw the most as children as "female figure" or how a girl should act, look, feel like in their subsconscious. Thats what they are truely attracted to.

Having a Pakistani girl for a while even as a wife is to give them the same feelings, Pakistanis get when Pakistani get a european lady (feel great from supposedly hard to get and higher valued person that sooths deep inner inferiority complex). Not to mention, their Pakistanis wife will be at some level attracted to her own kind, cause her "bollywood" image of indians has now shattered and she wants what she was familiar with her whole life. Which creates ultimately unconscious hate and distance.

Similarly now matter how much an indian girls is in love with a Pakistani, the moment she sees her own indian men, she feels extreme attraction towards them, and after the romance is over, even when in marriage, she then spends her time having longing for indians and spends her time being drowned in her indian community. Same is true for Pakistanis.

its not all as "cool" as it seems initially. I have seen enough of such marriages. Its a good thing such marriages are so extremely rare among ordinary Pakistanis.

At the end its normal to protect our values and youngsters from adding to their identities "other people" as their own who are by large culturally, religiously and value wise different from our own.

Its fears like this that I point out those differences. Those differences are real and cannot be brushed off as some indians do. That brushing off that creates friction and frustration. Pakistanis and indians are much better off living in Pakistan and overseas as separate people just like say indians and afghans live. Hence the need to highlight the differences. we can then interact when need be but be always separate, different communities in our minds and in our hearts. Indian resist that in their obsession for Pakistan and we want that.



LOL, I wanted to address regarding language and migration...I think both men and women should have the courage to be upfront from the beginning whether they want a permanent relationship from the oppsite party or they are just looking for something casual...problem starts when men declare that they want to strictly keep it casual and the women agree, but secretly they hope to change the mind of the men..When that mind transformation doesnot happen, all hell breaks loose...women should know that they are just NOT wired to handle casual sex like high status men
 
LOL, I wanted to address regarding language and migration...I think both men and women should have the courage to be upfront from the beginning whether they want a permanent relationship from the oppsite party or they are just looking for something casual...problem starts when men declare that they want to strictly keep it casual and the women agree, but secretly they hope to change the mind of the men..When that mind transformation doesnot happen, all hell breaks loose...women should know that they are just NOT wired to handle casual sex like high status men
You were not clear what you meant.
Anyway, as I said, our values are different from yours. You won't understand. That's why indians and Pakistanis should live separately. Most Pakistanis do enforce and follow certain values in Pakistan which indians don't. For some of us religions is fundamental force as well as a sense of relationship with our source of all existence. Do realize that I live a very "clean" boy scout life as dictated by Islam. Lets leave it at that.
 
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Yes difference between Pakistan and india is racial and that's drives some to hate them.

But a lot of us are driven by our inner connection with something much more intangible than race.

Ask yourself this question.

Today is new years. I am young and look European that too in very good way and "wanted" by so many. I am very women centric that is very attracted to them. I have PhD to show off and and came from an aristocratic very wealthy family. So why I am NOT outside partying with girls tonight, when all my friends have gone. WHY not?

What is stopping me? Well that is my Allah. If you can't see that then You just need to trust me that they are other forces transcending race and all else that shape us, define us and make us who we are. Let's end this conversation. Its VERY off topic and uncomfortably getting personal.



If you say so, there are always things in life that would be more compelling than women...even many 6 ft 6 true blooded blonde Viking gene Germans are also interested in pursuing kn owledge even if women from all over the world want to throw themselves at them


STalin could have all the women in the world but he still chose to pursue power...many men are driven by things other than women

I think it was DH Lawrence who said once you find something more interesting than women, then you are on the path to greatness...I guess you are too...all the best and happy new year
 
Problem is no one will accept Pakistan as leader. Would Iranians or Arabs accept Pakistan as a leader. Only rich countries like US Russia Saudi Arabia can become leaders not countries like Pakistan
And Pakistan movement was not about creating a refugee camp for Muslims from all over the world or leader of the Muslim world
Everything has a beginning... Ottomans started from a small territory in Sogut... Babar lost his Ferghana valley and for a bit held only Kabul and periphery. It is vision that changes destinee... people with small hearts do not like immigrants... as if they'd take their share of the bread... history has instead taught us that immigration has actually brought best minds together, helped entrepreneurship, innovation and science and most of all every super power in history had to become a melting pot to keep their edge... Be it Rome, Baghdad, Andalucia, London, or New York...

Even Mongols coopted all surrounding tribes and nation to become a force to be reckoned with...

No man is an island.
 
About linguistics, I tried to find content ... books or any literature that would help the hindi cause against Urdu in it's antiquity. There is no literary heritage of hindi... Urdu has a lineage, literature that backs it up... So, the debate should abate on linking the two, as one is clearly a wannabe.
 
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