Indigenous 'eye-in-the-sky' being developed for Indian Air Force

[SR-91]

Good news.
Hope they stick to their timetable. BUT, I would like to see them integrate AWACS on MTA rather than 767 or A330.

 

[acetophenol]

If I get this correctly,its about the new heavy AWAC system,similiar to Phalcon,and not the Embraer based project.

 

[janon]

If I get this correctly,its about the new heavy AWAC system,similiar to Phalcon,and not the Embraer based project.

That's right. The emb-145 based system will be delivered this year, as the article states:

Two smaller Airborne Early Warning Systems fitted on Embraer 145 aircraft should also be with IAF by mid-2014.

It is a pity they don't order more of those AEW systems in the meanwhile. A bird in the hand...

Considering what a tremendous force multiplier even the smaller AEWACS will be, and considering that it only costs as much as two Rafales (!), they could equip every single squadron with the AEWAC, and still not spend as much money as the Rafale deal. And arrguably, that would make for a more potent air force as well.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Good news.
Hope they stick to their timetable. BUT, I would like to see them integrate AWACS on MTA rather than 767 or A330.

There's SO much wrong with this. Firstly- read the article. It says one of the key benefits of the Boeing or Airbus birds is the maintenance facilities present in India- there are literally hundreds of these airliners flying in India with India being a regional MRO hub for these fleets. The MTA will barely be in service by 2020 and that too its numbers will always be limited compared to the civil market at most one can expect 50-70 MTAs. Secondly for these AWACs types it makes a whole lot of sense to fit it onto a wide-bodied civilian airliner not a medium sized cargo transport. The timeframes are also not workable as the MTA will be a new bird and will be undergoing its own acceptance testing at that point the last thing you will want to be doing is trying it out as an AWACS- the Airbus and Boeing birds are tested and known quantities. Does the MTA even have the capability to be used for this heavy antenna? The A330 for instance is a HUGE bird. Lastly- what is the MTA project gets delayed? this would delay the AWACS project also.

All in all I think the A330 is likely to be selected, it is a very modern and safe a/c, it will already be un use as an AAR with the IAF and there is a lot of Airbus MRO infrastructure in India.

Considering what a tremendous force multiplier even the smaller AEWACS will be, and considering that it only costs as much as two Rafales (!), they could equip every single squadron with the AEWAC, and still not spend as much money as the Rafale deal. And arrguably, that would make for a more potent air force as well.

It's about finding a balance- there's no point in having all that detection capability and no punch to back it up. If the EMB AWACS proves itself then for sure the IAF will be procuring more- they've said as much AFAIK.

 

[sancho]

Did I read 2020 ??

Why not bring in more Embrars to fill the gap till then.

That's the right question! But that wouldn't help DRDO to claim to be a world class developer, it "only" would help our national defence, but who cares about that?

 

[SOHEIL]

@IND151 : You did not tagged me .....

 

[Fawkes]

That's the right question! But that wouldn't help DRDO to claim to be a world class developer, it "only" would help our national defence, but who cares about that?

You are talking like its DRDO to decide how many embraers to make. If MoD/IAF asks for more, they would be more than happy to produce a couple more.
They will need to keep their engineers/workers busy, whats wrong if they take up another project.
I do agree with most your posts on technical basis/topics, but not on bashing DRDO everytime their is a news about then.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Nothing wrong in being critical of DRDO.. yes they do things.. but also they take lot of time.. there are always plusses and minusses in both sides of viewpoints.. I can understand Sancho viewpoint where he believes that DRDO heads like Mr Chander who is an awesome guy and a brilliant mind in my personal opinion had succumbed to giving more sound bytes then the reality check and course correction aspect of speeding up the projects.. BTW in my engineering days which was long back i had presented a detailed paper for AWACS and a similar system to Phalcon... Its difficult to imagine that stlll after 15-20 years we are talking of making sumthn and doing sumthn.. So the critical views comes there... if u visit Indian Institute of Science (IISc Bangalore) u will find such brilliant minds there that have researched in many different fields with shoe string budgets,, DRDO also did the same yet i see far more results from IISc then DRDO.. yes complexity, size of project, corpus etc are different yet the sheer talent of folks there at DRDO are at times wasted... the brilliant minds needs work not publicity... The same Mr Chander when he was heading the missile related division (same post now as tessy thomas), did u see him giving so many interviews soundbytes.. the guy was so cool when journalists used to ask for appointments he used to say watch out to see our work ... he liked the concept of results speaking for themselves.. now seems to be a 180 degree turn to that.. may be bcz he is keen to change the image of DRDO.. nothing wrong in that.. yet for ppl like me, i still believe its better the way he was before.. i liked his work speaking more ....

 

[IND151]

Did I read 2020 ??

Why not bring in more Embrars to fill the gap till then. Dump those silly FSB schemes and fly in more phalcons. IAF must be itching to bomb terrorist training infra in P.A.K.

Good news.
Hope they stick to their timetable. BUT, I would like to see them integrate AWACS on MTA rather than 767 or A330.

MTA is still on drawing paper.

Besides the rotating rotodome is huge and MTA is no large enough to house such AWACS.

 

[jarves]

Did I read 2020 ??

Why not bring in more Embrars to fill the gap till then. Dump those silly FSB schemes and fly in more phalcons. IAF must be itching to bomb terrorist training infra in P.A.K.

Phalcons are very costly....
Embrars only give 240 degree coverage.......
And we will induct two Embrars this year.....

 

[gslv]

By Gulshan Luthra
New Delhi, Jan 21 (IANS): An indigenous AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System), that enables the Indian Air Force (IAF) look up to 400 km into Pakistan and China while remaining in the safety of its own airspace, should be available by about 2020, its developer says.

Avinash Chander, head of India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Scientific Adviser to the defence minister, told India Strategic (www.indiastrategic.in ) in an interview that some initial capabilities had been achieved and it is now natural to progress towards creating this tremendous force-multiplier for the IAF, which currently has three AWACS and has projected a requirement of 10 in the next decade.

The radar, the key element of the AWACS, will be a rotating rotodome with electronic scanning, and as the space requirements for the equipment are considerable, DRDO was looking at either the Boeing-767 or Airbus A- 330 as the platform.

There have been some discussions with their manufacturers on what can be done. Once the specifications are frozen and government sanction obtained, an Expression of Interest would be invited from them, and then an RfP (Request for Proposals - or tender) would be issued.

The development of the radars and sensors would continue in parallel. After that, the key task and challenge would be their integration on the aircraft.

"Our design works are progressing but the key is the integration of the equipment on the aircraft," Avinash Chander observed.

The three IAF AWACS comprise the Israeli Phalcon radar mounted aboard a Russian IL-76 aircraft.

Two smaller Airborne Early Warning Systems fitted on Embraer 145 aircraft should also be with IAF by mid-2014.

But numbers are important as not all aircraft can be in the air all the time and IAF has large areas to scan all around India.

As for the rotodome, Chander explained that the static radars, which scan electronically, have some limitation of a blind area as it is fitted on the fuselage of an aircraft. With a rotating dish - or antenna - it can cover 360 degrees.

The radar being developed by DRDO will have both physical rotation and electronic rotation of the radar waves, Avinash Chander said.

Notably, as both the aircraft being looked at are civilian airliners, their maintenance will not be a problem as there are a large number of engineering and technical personnel available in India. The choice of payload in terms of weight and configuration would eventually help decide the choice of the aircraft as well.

The cost of an AWACS depends upon the choice of the platform, that is, the aircraft, onboard systems, effort in technical integration and the numbers required to defray the development expenses, estimated at around $300 million (Rs.18.5 billion) per fully loaded aircraft.

It would be cheaper perhaps initially to buy a ready made system like the Phalcon but if the country is looking at control of technology that the Indian forces would use, then it is imperative to develop it with indigenous systems to the extent possible and integrate it at home. That would raise the cost by at least 25 per cent but ensure a strategic independence in operating it.

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCsQqQIwAA&url=http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_disp.asp?n_id=213961&ei=1X3eUubNI8jlrAfg1YHYBg&usg=AFQjCNH4OaT5hD7HUb1LmPMxX59_CU2h0Q


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Well for these things to happen as per time table DRDO should function normally. DRDO should be split into 2 organization. otherwize leave alone 2030 dream about 3030. btw why not install these things on a NAL developed plane. will save a lot of foregn exchange.The development should always be parallel.

 

[sancho]

You are talking like its DRDO to decide how many embraers to make. If MoD/IAF asks for more, they would be more than happy to produce a couple more.
They will need to keep their engineers/workers busy, whats wrong if they take up another project.
I do agree with most your posts on technical basis/topics, but not on bashing DRDO everytime their is a news about then.

Of course they don't decide how many aircrafts will be procured, but can influence decision of MoD, based on their promises! There are reports that they can even veto the procurement of certain techs, if they say they can develop it and do you think IAF waited so long for the addition of just 2 more A50 Phalcons because they didn't needed or wanted it?
On the other side we have DRDO...

...not having finished DRDO AWACS and dreaming of AWACS India
...not having finished indigenous fighter MMR and dreaming about indigenous AESA
...not having finished LCA MK1, but dreaming about LCA MK2, 3 and AMCA
...not having finished Rustom UAVs, but dreaing about AURA UCAV
...not having finished NAG and Helina / Astra Mk1, or Sudarshan LGB, but dreaming about extended range Helina, Astra MK2 and Ramjet propulsions, or Sudarshan NG
...
...
...
What's wrong with finishing developments, showing results (at least as some of the basic developments), constant improvement and working according the needs of the forces?
As long as they remain to be non-performers and dreamers, I will keep on pointing out the facts about them.

if u visit Indian Institute of Science (IISc Bangalore) u will find such brilliant minds there that have researched in many different fields

That's the point! It's not like we wouldn't have the capabilities to be more capable, look at the success ISRO has since years and still DRDO, but also other defence developers in the aero field for example are lacking so much behind of the potential we have in India, but dreaming big, showing off in the media and ego issues are preventing us to bring out the potential and DRDO is leading in these fields of mistakes.[/quote]

 

[AMCA]

Well for these things to happen as per time table DRDO should function normally. DRDO should be split into 2 organization. otherwize leave alone 2030 dream about 3030. btw why not install these things on a NAL developed plane. will save a lot of foregn exchange.The development should always be parallel.

We have tried that in early 90's. Clubbing an Airborne Surveillance System on an HAL manufactured Aircraft HS 748 but failed. We need a potent platform and until then a proven platform should be the choice.

 

[HariPrasad]

We would have had this capability by now had our experimental plane would not have crashed. Foolish politicians took a lots of time to sanction a new one.

I hope that with good project management like we have in ISRO, we can certainly achieve that in time or even before that.

 

[HariPrasad]

..not having finished DRDO AWACS and dreaming of AWACS India
...not having finished indigenous fighter MMR and dreaming about indigenous AESA
...not having finished LCA MK1, but dreaming about LCA MK2, 3 and AMCA
...not having finished Rustom UAVs, but dreaing about AURA UCAV
...not having finished NAG and Helina / Astra Mk1, or Sudarshan LGB, but dreaming about extended range Helina, Astra MK2 and Ramjet propulsions, or Sudarshan NG

Nothing is wrong in dreaming. AWA& C is not operational but technologies are realized so there is no harm in start working on next technology. Our missile program is the example. We started almost parallel development of A4 and A5. Had we waited for A4 to success before we commence the work on A5, We would have been 4 years late in A5 program.

We have realized all technologies to develop MK2 in MK1. Why should we wait for wait for MK1 FOC to begin the work on MK2. It will simply be foolish. MK2 is a new engine aerodynamically refined aircraft. MK1 is realized a long back. Should we wait for MK1 to increse AOA and integrate BVR and Guns before we start developing MK2. Which way these remaining work is a hurdle in designing MK2?

Same is true for all other project.

I think the way we have taken is absolutely correct. Soon as we reached some moderate level of realization of technology, we should begin the work on next technology of next generation weapon without waiting for the project to realized completely.

i am not worthy to invited such thread its mean ?

Oh sir,

You are a very senior member. You are always invited irrespective of formality of mention.