Featured India’s Test of Hypersonic missile and implications for Pakistan

[Indx-techs]

Ummm... nope. Agni 5 was first tested in 2012 or so. It is still being inducted with last development trial happened in end 2018. Don't know when user trials will start and end.

Agni-5 came into being just after 3 years its realisation started at DRDO which in past had been way longer for missiles. Except for initial developmental trials, rest other are regular trials which happen after frequent improvisions like composites, seekers and navigation systems or within exercises and trials by armed forces. They can't be rendered as a part of development cycle but MoD's procedure to induct a weapon (not accounting how much official info released for strategic weapons is often true; they often enter service way before confirmation).

Agni-5 has been deployed already 2 years ago and

AIM120-c5 was intucted in 1990s. Thats about 25 years ago. US has moved to c-7 then D.

It hasn't made that missile obsolete or outdated. In fact, still falls among modern missiles and which are seen as good to have by most countries.
As told before, you are now shifting comparison with US who was first country in the world to introduce this generation.

Still, Astra with all its equipment, is among quite good A2A missiles; equivalent or more than AIM-120 C5 version. SFDR we are developing will come in next decade on our fifth generation fighter will then be equivalent to upgraded AMRAAM and PL-21, far from being obsolete, instead will be among world's best.

Errr... ASAT okay, terminal abm okay BUT mid course is highly speculative. And mirv intercetion is sure unlikely.

Terminal (especially) and mid-course interception abilities are essential to shoot down MIRVed warheads. Since MIRV separation can only take place inside atmosphere, it has to be killed when it is out of it. Intercepting targets at this much height is only challenge you have to be over to become expert in anti ballistic missile tech.
And yes, without realising these technologies, you can't move ahead to develop an ASAT missile at first place. India has realised mid-course & terminal interceptions in 2016 and again in 2017.

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

It hasn't made that missile obsolete or outdated. In fact, still falls among modern missiles and which are seen as good to have by most countries.

Let see, last time India relied on outdate weapons ie R-77 (1980s vintage), it lost air battle against more capable and modern fighter + missile combo (F-16, AIM120-C5). Why field outdate technology when you know that your opponent will field more capable newer tech?

 

[Indx-techs]

Let see, last time India relied on outdate weapons ie R-77 (1980s vintage), it lost air battle against more capable and modern fighter + missile combo (F-16, AIM120-C5). Why field outdate technology when you know that your opponent will field more capable newer tech?

In case you are fielding the technology that you own, you have capability to mass produce it and deploy in massive numbers to neutralise more efficient threats.

Even more important than that, countries don't field weapons only for winning the war. Them deploying their own weapons prevents them from falling into political dominance of arms supplier. They validate their weapons, improve them and launch even better weapons to give competition to great powers. It is totally illogical approach to wait for another country to buy it as it is not necessary that they remain your friends. They can deny you anything anytime or even can hit you with same weapons and you won't survive their hit if you don't have your own. If countries would have taken approach you suggested, world wouldn't have been today over feats of technology it achieved.
Not only best weapons but second best, runner ups are operational with NATO, Russia, China, India, Japan and Israel for logical reasons by governments.

You anyway have unfortunately killed the context and taken argument to another aspect which shows how problematic your approach is regarding "criticism". India's enemy (at least western one), can't attain equality or superiority most of systems India operates. There is no issue.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

PAF JF-17 has powerful hypersonic anti-ship missiles CM-400AKG since 2019.

 

[danger007]

PAF JF-17 has powerful hypersonic anti-ship missiles CM-400AKG since 2019.

Great now you got answer for India's hypersonic missile program with ashm.... which is a great countermeasure for sure..

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Great now you got answer for India's hypersonic missile program with ashm.... which is a great countermeasure for sure..

Sometimes the counterbalance is important for the security of these two nation. India always threatened Pakistan with Brahmos and they acquired CM400AKG.
Now you upgrade with something better, don't complain if China will supplied Pakistan with even a better one.
Who was doing the illegal surgical strike and did Pakistan retaliated?
They did not because they do not want to escalate the animosity between them but did Modi get the message.
I do not want to be drawn into a discussion about this so called hypersonic Brahmos missile India tested.
It looks exactly like a 3M22 Russian Zircon to me.

 

[vizier]

India like Usa spends on hypersonic cruise missiles as they are obviously less vulnurable. But as far as I know to achieve that speed they need to have a quasi ballistic trajectory not flying low. Coupled with its main advantage speed makes it a disadvantage of having a higher radar cross section.

It can be engaged in my opinion. The configuration of engagement differs. Some ballistic missile defense patents for example propose striking the incoming projectile from behind and not head on to reduce closing speed which is the determining factor of difficulty in missile defense systems.

You need a space based interceptor for ballistic missile interception from behind the rv and it is almost impossible. However cruise missile flies low and you can engage it from behind by a frontline sam system looking backwards. For example if the missile speed is mach 5 and your sam system is mach 8 the closing speed is much lowered engaging the missile. Clsoing speed of mach 3 requires much less G maneuver by the missile than mach 13 closing speed almost hitting bullet with a bullet.

You need a good radar system(awacs,blimp etc.) that can detect incoming cruise missiles and alert frontline sam batteries though.

 

[HostileInsurgent]

Sometimes the counterbalance is important for the security of these two nation. India always threatened Pakistan with Brahmos and they acquired CM400AKG.
Now you upgrade with something better, don't complain if China will supplied Pakistan with even a better one.
Who was doing the illegal surgical strike and did Pakistan retaliated?
They did not because they do not want to escalate the animosity between them but did Modi get the message.
I do not want to be drawn into a discussion about this so called hypersonic Brahmos missile India tested.
It looks exactly like a 3M22 Russian Zircon to me.

First it was a tech demonstrator, 2nd ... all hypersonic missiles look like the same, not zircon etc like.

 

[Indx-techs]

You are requested to also help me with understanding your vague, "The comments by Khan were for world consumption and there wasn't any fear of Indian 'retaliation' especially", given that Pakistan then immediately released POW and only backtracked from showcasing its capabilities to thwart India, giving more & more messages for international consumption for months while India kept on inviting Pakistan openly for conflict.

Just told earlier lol.

Way earlier on 27 February 2019. I'm wondering if masses are fool enough to maintain superhero images yet.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

Just told earlier lol.

Way earlier on 27 February 2019. I'm wondering if masses are fool enough to maintain superhero images yet.

His rants are nothing more than ramblings of a bitter old man who is desperately trying to cling onto something to stay relevant.
Had we been so afraid of India there wouldn't be any proxy war In IOK and all of our disputes would have been solved decades ago.
Instead we've been fingering you since past 70 years despite all of your purported superiority.
Pakistan is not a pushover, The sooner you get this in your head the better it is for the region.

 

[Indx-techs]

His rants are nothing more than ramblings of a bitter old man who is desperately trying to cling onto something to stay relevant.
Had we been so afraid of India there wouldn't be any proxy war In IOK and all of our disputes would have been solved decades ago.

It is not only about his remarks. This milthreat news had surfaced in OSINT and later general media even before release of Abhinandan back in later night of 26 February 2019. These were again Pakistanis back then which were celebrating (never understood exactly what) ignoring everything and spamming timelines with "tea was fantastic" than wondering why Varthaman was released without any compromise.

Even if I wasn't an Indian, it isn't something unbelievable for me. Absolute military firepower and capabilities make actual substance and rules minds of politicians and militarily leaders unlike general populace (of Pakistan) which relies on perceived racial superiority of martial races.
The same set of reactions has been ongoing on for decades if reactions are to be taken. Be it post Smiling Buddha or Operation Brasstacks. How the Pakistani awam has been maintaining superhero image of their army for decades without any reasoning or logic is astonishing in any case.

In case you think your military and government won't shiver against an eleven times stronger enemy and won't make any comprise to avoid a war, you are out of your mind because of jingoism.

Instead we've been fingering you since past 70 years despite all of your purported superiority.
Pakistan is not a pushover, The sooner you get this in your head the better it is for the region.

India itself is 65% of land, 75% of population and 80% of economy of this region. Most of countries here are dependent upon India and relations with Pak don't make any difference to those as Pak doesn't have any presence in regional politics/economics beyond Afghanistan, nor our war affects anything more than Pakistan and northwest India.

Pak lost military significance after 1971 and has been using only proxy wars since then given India's diplomatic limitations won't let it easily attempt an occupation of Pakistan. Since, direct war has been encouraged by Pak since then, I will count this as a downfall.

Reveal names of CIA moles of 1971 war: CIC

The CIC has asked the Ministry of External Affairs to reveal the names of alleged moles in Indira Gandhi's cabinet.

www.ndtv.com

India Could Have Split West Pakistan in 1971

Declassified US records show that India’s objectives during the 1971 Indo-Pak war were greatly curtailed following an instance of high treason committed by a member of Indira Gandhi’s government

swarajyamag.com

Pakistan really stopped being an economic and military rival for India after that war and gap between two countries has only widened since then. The perspectives of interpreting things as positive or negative may be your own PoV anyway.

For instance, a PoV that Pakistan is successful because it still exists despite struggling against a much bigger India (on negative perspective, once a much richer state than India is falling behind gradually in living standards now, has lost out in almost every development indicator, nevermind technology as never invested in institutions, and is now heading to turn compete with Afghanistan in HDI & IHDI).

The way Indians in general regard Pakistan isn't of a rival. Briefly, Indian nationalists see Pak like Russians see Ukraine, Indian public sees Pak like Americans would see North Koreans. It's given as example of what not to be in any respect.

Pak definitely isn't country which India can go and occupy another. But this isn't a country in same league either.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

It is not only about his remarks. This milthreat news had surfaced in OSINT and later general media even before release of Abhinandan back in later night of 26 February 2019. These were again Pakistanis back then which were celebrating (never understood exactly what) ignoring everything and spamming timelines with "tea was fantastic" than wondering why Varthaman was released without any compromise.

Even if I wasn't an Indian, it isn't something unbelievable for me. Absolute military firepower and capabilities make actual substance and rules minds of politicians and militarily leaders unlike general populace (of Pakistan) which relies on perceived racial superiority of martial races.
The same set of reactions has been ongoing on for decades if reactions are to be taken. Be it post Smiling Buddha or Operation Brasstacks. How the Pakistani awam has been maintaining superhero image of their army for decades without any reasoning or logic is astonishing in any case.

In case you think your military and government won't shiver against an eleven times stronger enemy and won't make any comprise to avoid a war, you are out of your mind because of jingoism.

India itself is 65% of land, 75% of population and 80% of economy of this region. Most of countries here are dependent upon India and relations with Pak don't make any difference to those as Pak doesn't have any presence in regional politics/economics beyond Afghanistan, nor our war affects anything more than Pakistan and northwest India.

Pak lost military significance after 1971 and has been using only proxy wars since then given India's diplomatic limitations won't let it easily attempt an occupation of Pakistan. Since, direct war has been encouraged by Pak since then, I will count this as a downfall.

Reveal names of CIA moles of 1971 war: CIC

The CIC has asked the Ministry of External Affairs to reveal the names of alleged moles in Indira Gandhi's cabinet.

www.ndtv.com

India Could Have Split West Pakistan in 1971

Declassified US records show that India’s objectives during the 1971 Indo-Pak war were greatly curtailed following an instance of high treason committed by a member of Indira Gandhi’s government

swarajyamag.com

Pakistan really stopped being an economic and military rival for India after that war and gap between two countries has only widened since then. The perspectives of interpreting things as positive or negative may be your own PoV anyway.

For instance, a PoV that Pakistan is successful because it still exists despite struggling against a much bigger India (on negative perspective, once a much richer state than India is falling behind gradually in living standards now, has lost out in almost every development indicator, nevermind technology as never invested in institutions, and is now heading to turn compete with Afghanistan in HDI & IHDI).

The way Indians in general regard Pakistan isn't of a rival. Briefly, Indian nationalists see Pak like Russians see Ukraine, Indian public sees Pak like Americans would see North Koreans. It's given as example of what not to be in any respect.

Pak definitely isn't country which India can go and occupy another. But this isn't a country in same league either.

What a load of gibberish. Sir,this is a defense forum not your designated street, please don't defecate here.
One can teach the illiterates but there's isn't any cure for those who are deliberately chose to be ignorant.
The truth is Pakistan fears you no more than she fears Bhutan or madagascar.
You may project your ills on us to cope with reality but to be frank it's hardly helping anyone here.
I don't know how your demented mind perceived events of 27 February as victory but the truth is India not only lost on battlefield it's armed forces also disappointed their large population of overly nationalist zealots ,hence why we see them desperately trying to find something to salvage their bruised egos.
First they found little solace in alleged debris of f16 engine but independent expert were quick to burst their bubble,
But Indians being Indian never give up and created a new fictional character in form shazaz uddin , although some of them have realized how stupid they sound to Foreigners when they tell them Pakistanis not only mistook their pilot for a Sikh but also Lynch him, some overly patriotic ones still cling to this deranged story to this very day.
As for as military superiority and striking fear in hearts of enemy is concerned we can easily gauge from events of 27th February whose legs were shaking.
It took iaf 12 days iaf to lob bombs from across the border PAF retaliated in less than 24 hours and not only bombed 6x more sites but also shot 2 planes.
And instead of retaliating and avenging nandu modi decided to hurl empty threats and then proceeded to pretend like nothing happened at all, I guess in some cultures taking beating from 5x smaller enemy constitutes as military victory.

 

[Indx-techs]

What a load of gibberish. Sir,this is a defense forum not your designated street, please don't defecate here.

PDF is far from being a defense forum. It's staff and old members strictly maintain forum to keep it away from any technical discussion, threads don't run on topic for more than 2 posts, too many country sections are there where people only play personal attacks against each other. Things only get worse whenever I login after a couple of months. I visit this forum only for fun, since delusions embedded here aren't found elsewhere in entire cyberspace.

The truth is Pakistan fears you no more than she fears Bhutan or madagascar.
You may project your ills on us to cope with reality but to be frank it's hardly helping anyone here.
I don't know how your demented mind perceived events of 27 February as victory but the truth is India not only lost on battlefield it's armed forces also disappointed their large population of overly nationalist zealots ,hence why we see them desperately trying to find something to salvage their bruised egos.
First they found little solace in alleged debris of f16 engine but independent expert were quick to burst their bubble,
But Indians being Indian never give up and created a new fictional character in form shazaz uddin , although some of them have realized how stupid they sound to Foreigners when they tell them Pakistanis not only mistook their pilot for a Sikh but also Lynch him, some overly patriotic ones still cling to this deranged story to this very day.
As for as military superiority and striking fear in hearts of enemy is concerned we can easily gauge from events of 27th February whose legs were shaking.
It took iaf 12 days iaf to lob bombs from across the border PAF retaliated in less than 24 hours and not only bombed 6x more sites but also shot 2 planes.
And instead of retaliating and avenging nandu modi decided to hurl empty threats and then proceeded to pretend like nothing happened at all, I guess in some cultures taking beating from 5x smaller enemy constitutes as military victory.

Altogether, India struck deep inside Pakistan. Pak responded with a 20 plabss squadron on LoC immediately and even ended it getting chased. Accounting only fall of MiG-21 since F-16 footage Isn't there, for Su-30 anything isn't there, got a pilot and released it next day. (Have talked of loss assessment earlier this thread).

In entire episode, India didn't even actually utilise a significant iota of military capabilities. This skirmish meant nothing, but is being celebrated as a war victory in Pakistan with museums, awards and movies. It only reflects how little Pakistani military has to show.
And even that night and thereafter, India kept on inviting Pak for engagement openly what Pak kept on running away from and begging other powers to "play their role in conflict" (bachao). Obviously, feel good Pakistanis will always comfortably ignore what doesn't make them comfortable at all.

World needs to dissuade India from its war-mongering after Pulwama, Qureshi tells UNSC chief

"India must refrain from escalating the situation and enter into dialogue with Pakistan and Kashmiris," says minister.

www.dawn.com

World has responsibility to stop Indian aggression: PM

New Delhi has created risks for peace in region, PM Imran tells visiting Saudi, UAE FMs.

www.dawn.com

From Moeed Yusuf

Going forward

Pakistan and India must agree on steps to manage crises.

www.dawn.com

It doesn't matter what you like or dislike. If you can't reason out why we should assume Pak wouldn't be afraid of a military annihilation, you are ignorant. Military threats from US/USSR/China have often made France, India, UK & China postpone or backstep from their stances. And here we have Pakistan who isn't even a thing in global politics independently. Pakistani threat matrix database and nuclear doctrine itself is a result of these perceived implications. Only reason why Pak repeatedly talks against Indian military build up in international forums or recently has started to call India a fascist state.

whose legs were shaking.

 

[vizier]

One option is as I mentioned before employ a faster sam system in the frontline and fire backwards behind the hscm to reduce closing velocity without a more difficult head on engagement which is the sum of missile velocity vector and the target velocity vector. The disadvantage is you cant protect frontlines and hs cruise missile has time to hit its intended target while the sam tries to catch it from behind. The sam should be much faster than the cm and the time to reach its max speed should be pretty low.

Another option is keeping the airbases behind mountainious regions. The missile although extremely fast has reduced maneuvrability and cant change course to hit difficult targets behind mountainous terrain which can be hit by slower cruise missiles or by ballistic missiles directly from above.

Also the aerodynamic shape of hscm is intended for speed. Its bunker busting capability would be limited in my opinion in conventional mode. Planes can be protected in underground hangars. Other measures like highway strips and inside mountain airbases are general measures against airstrikes as well.

 

[Surya 1]

This week India tested its first hypersonic missile. Traveling at extreme speeds with unpredictable flight patterns, hypersonic missiles have the potential to destabilize the strategic balance in South Asia, in ways not seen since India’s test of the nuclear bomb in 1972. Recent discussions on India has centered around New Delhi’s acquisition of the Rafale aircrafts. But these Rafale aircrafts don’t substantially alter the balance between the two air forces. The hypersonic missile tested by India has far-reaching implications for Pakistan.

“Pakistan is not known to have an indigenous hypersonic development program. Moreover, if China, Russia, and the United States reach an agreement on the issue, then there are more chances of avoiding a possible regional hypersonic rivalry in South Asia by making India part of the agreement.”

Hypersonic Weapons Affect South Asia Too | Arms Control Association

www.armscontrol.org

The problem with Pakistan is that they still think that they are balancing power. This hypersonic missile is not going to make any big difference.