Featured India’s Test of Hypersonic missile and implications for Pakistan

[Indx-techs]

Pakistan should pursue the tech, make it, and don't test it publicly. Let India reveal all her cards. The Chinese are on India's border and it needs to do these things to make its populace feel safe. I hope India and all her allies keep using Pakistan as its yardstick in strategic policy.

Pakistan needs to pursue R&D to hold pursuit of preferred tech. Unfortunately, it's existing techs are on mercy of India's adversaries who determine what is sufficient to be given to counter India.
It's quite explanatory about how Pakistan got hold of significant knowhows or ballistic & cruise missile systems without any real investment in R&D and why it failed to make any significant progress in these techs or failed to substitute them to develop new techs or diversify missile systems within inventory. Pakistan is far from being a yardstick or fulcrum in anyone's policies, is far away from making any impact to world. Only thing what's true is that it is still not small enough to be ignored.

pakistani policy makers are incompetent, when western companies started moving into india to make it a viable option against china, then at the same time all the necessary tech started flowing into india.

Western companies expanded in India in 2000s, Indian projects bearing fruits today are all 40-50 years old. Barely any western company which could be helpful to develop any such things has been to India.
They played a significant role in China's development for sure. Bill Clinton's Laurel satellite scam turned China's space and aviation industry from a nothing to envy for India.

bunch of fools pakistani policy makers are, 1972 nuke explosion was with a green signal from the west, tech provided by the west and russia at the same time..

India was sanctioned and treated like North Korea for years by both of them instead for this nuclear test. They made an entire 70 nations group called to put embargo on everyone against selling fissile material to India.


Indian nuke program is as old as 1949. And India STOLE and modified the technology from Canada for which India got decades long sanctions separately.

Pakistan troops were fighting against an enemy 10x bigger and backed by insurgents and in a territory 1000s of KMs away.

India wasn't really bigger than Pakistan those days. Our military and economic strengths were very closer in size. And India had to mess up with China in east and UK in far South in Indian Ocean. Soviets submarines entered in last stage when USN's 7th fleet with nuclear flotilla tried to assault India.

The Western sector which is the modern day Pakistan is the ultimate measure of any conflict between India and Pakistan, and Pakistan has never lost here despite being exponentially smaller and poorer than India.

Pakistan lost major portions of its urban territories in 1965 and got them back after Tashkent declaration when Soviets intervened. Pakistan later in 1971 lost even much bigger landmass; 15,000 sq. kms only in western sector and got it returned by India as goodwill gesture.

Operation Brasstacks once was rendered to be meant to annex western Pakistan, Pakistan even reached UNSC against an Indian military exercise only in fear of a Blitzkrieg style attack. Indeed west Pakistan too has no chance of standing anywhere below the cover of mountains, just like east Pakistan.
And all these years, Pakistan was richer than India till mid 2000s and continued to match or even outpace Indians in several aspects of wealth & living standards even till 2014-15. Gap between wealths of Indians and Pakistan's became larger thereafter.

Only thing where Pakistan had an excuse was its political instability, coups & powerful terrorist groups against India who never has faced a coup or a real bothering insurgency since 1950. Other being Pakistan always being far behind in technological & academic aspects (which is a part of Pakistan's own priorities).

This is what truly frustrates the Indians. Despite the odds and viciousness of the enemy, Pakistan stands and keeps humiliating a regional bully forthe past 72 years as we saw on Feb 26/27 last year.

Issue lies how India & Pakistan see themselves and each other. Pakistan sees itself as a strategic balancer and challenger for India in South Asian region. India sees itself as much more than regional power who doesn't need to compromise with Pakistan or bother about it while doing anything.

February 27 only reflects how easy it has been for Pakistani armed forces to make its populace happy. Engagement on LoC after having a deep air strike (not accounting whether strike was successful), engaging F-16s with sitting MiG-21s, getting eve those chased out by MiGs and finally capturing a pilot. I would bet my money that no would one be able to explain any demonstration of capabilities because there isn't any. In fact, releasing even that POW immediately after war threat and then running around for de escalation doesn't send a hard to understand indication.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1464780/regional-unrest-wont-serve-anyones-interests-says-foreign-minister

https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...-tensions-with-india/articleshow/68059348.cms

https://www.dawn.com/news/1464599/q...ation-after-indian-rhetoric-on-pulwama-attack

https://www.dawn.com/news/1464784/a...esponse-analysts-back-pm-khans-offer-to-india

World needs to dissuade India from its war-mongering after Pulwama, Qureshi tells UNSC chief

"India must refrain from escalating the situation and enter into dialogue with Pakistan and Kashmiris," says minister.

www.dawn.com

Going forward

Pakistan and India must agree on steps to manage crises.

www.dawn.com

Pakistan asks UN to 'act decisively' to prevent a 'disastrous war' with India

Ambassador Munir Akram says signals from India of "aggressive intent" towards Pakistan are "unmistakable".

www.dawn.com

PM Imran reiterates need for UN to intervene in Kashmir

Remaining an inactive observer along LoC will be "difficult" if Indian military attacks continue, says Imran.

www.dawn.com

Ever since this episode has started, I can only see India trying to push for war and Pakistani establishment trying to get out of quagmire.

 

[MilSpec]

Exactly. Pakistan, or any other nation, had absolutely no chance in the 1971 war. Pakistan troops were fighting against an enemy 10x bigger and backed by insurgents and in a territory 1000s of KMs away.

That is quite moronic, Pakistani Troops were fighting exactly 0 Km Away from Pakistan. Today's Bangladesh was erstwhile EAST PAKISTAN. It was, not some foreign land but their own country, only if they treated it like one.

The real question is why did the Strategic Gem of "Defence of East Lies in West" not work? Even Hamidoor commision report couldn't be released in Pakistan, forget accountability for losing half the nation by its military. Such performance would be termed stellar only in Planet Pakistan.

 

[waz]

Pakistan needs to pursue R&D to hold pursuit of preferred tech. Unfortunately, it's existing techs are on mercy of India's adversaries who determine what is sufficient to be given to counter India.
It's quite explanatory about how Pakistan got hold of significant knowhows or ballistic & cruise missile systems without any real investment in R&D and why it failed to make any significant progress in these techs or failed to substitute them to develop new techs or diversify missile systems within inventory. Pakistan is far from being a yardstick or fulcrum in anyone's policies, is far away from making any impact to world. Only thing what's true is that it is still not small enough to be ignored.

Western companies expanded in India in 2000s, Indian projects bearing fruits today are all 40-50 years old. Barely any western company which could be helpful to develop any such things has been to India.
They played a significant role in China's development for sure. Bill Clinton's Laurel satellite scam turned China's space and aviation industry from a nothing to envy for India.

India was sanctioned and treated like North Korea for years by both of them instead for this nuclear test. They made an entire 70 nations group called to put embargo on everyone against selling fissile material to India.


Indian nuke program is as old as 1949. And India STOLE and modified the technology from Canada for which India got decades long sanctions separately.

India wasn't really bigger than Pakistan those days. Our military and economic strengths were very closer in size. And India had to mess up with China in east and UK in far South in Indian Ocean. Soviets submarines entered in last stage when USN's 7th fleet with nuclear flotilla tried to assault India.

Pakistan lost major portions of its urban territories in 1965 and got them back after Tashkent declaration when Soviets intervened. Pakistan later in 1971 lost even much bigger landmass; 15,000 sq. kms only in western sector and got it returned by India as goodwill gesture.

Operation Brasstacks once was rendered to be meant to annex western Pakistan, Pakistan even reached UNSC against an Indian military exercise only in fear of a Blitzkrieg style attack. Indeed west Pakistan too has no chance of standing anywhere below the cover of mountains, just like east Pakistan.
And all these years, Pakistan was richer than India till mid 2000s and continued to match or even outpace Indians in several aspects of wealth & living standards even till 2014-15. Gap between wealths of Indians and Pakistan's became larger thereafter.

Only thing where Pakistan had an excuse was its political instability, coups & powerful terrorist groups against India who never has faced a coup or a real bothering insurgency since 1950. Other being Pakistan always being far behind in technological & academic aspects (which is a part of Pakistan's own priorities).

Issue lies how India & Pakistan see themselves and each other. Pakistan sees itself as a strategic balancer and challenger for India in South Asian region. India sees itself as much more than regional power who doesn't need to compromise with Pakistan or bother about it while doing anything.

February 27 only reflects how easy it has been for Pakistani armed forces to make its populace happy. Engagement on LoC after having a deep air strike (not accounting whether strike was successful), engaging F-16s with sitting MiG-21s, getting eve those chased out by MiGs and finally capturing a pilot. I would bet my money that no would one be able to explain any demonstration of capabilities because there isn't any. In fact, releasing even that POW immediately after war threat and then running around for de escalation doesn't send a hard to understand indication.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1464780/regional-unrest-wont-serve-anyones-interests-says-foreign-minister

https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...-tensions-with-india/articleshow/68059348.cms

https://www.dawn.com/news/1464599/q...ation-after-indian-rhetoric-on-pulwama-attack

https://www.dawn.com/news/1464784/a...esponse-analysts-back-pm-khans-offer-to-india

World needs to dissuade India from its war-mongering after Pulwama, Qureshi tells UNSC chief

"India must refrain from escalating the situation and enter into dialogue with Pakistan and Kashmiris," says minister.

www.dawn.com

Going forward

Pakistan and India must agree on steps to manage crises.

www.dawn.com

Pakistan asks UN to 'act decisively' to prevent a 'disastrous war' with India

Ambassador Munir Akram says signals from India of "aggressive intent" towards Pakistan are "unmistakable".

www.dawn.com

PM Imran reiterates need for UN to intervene in Kashmir

Remaining an inactive observer along LoC will be "difficult" if Indian military attacks continue, says Imran.

www.dawn.com

Ever since this episode has started, I can only see India trying to push for war and Pakistani establishment trying to get out of quagmire.

Hilarious, more holes in this post than Swiss cheese.
I'll pick one point.

Pakistan openly violated the Geneva convention according to many with the parading of your wing commander on TV, this is after he was allowed to be beaten by civilians. He was then released according to it, nothing more than that.

Pakistan may have violated Geneva Conventions after posting video of captured pilot

Pakistan’s release of a video showing a captured Indian pilot may have violated norms of the Geneva Conventions intended to protect prisoners from “insults and public curiosity,” according to experts.

www.foxnews.com

Did Pakistan break Geneva Convention after the capture of IAF pilot?

The videos of Varthaman first emerged on an unverified YouTube channel

www.theweek.in

.

The comments by Khan were for world consumption and there wasn't any fear of Indian 'retaliation' especially since you suffered a clear conventional defeat. Pakistan also clearly outlined that when there was talk of missile strikes on Pakistan by India after the air battle, Pakistan would rain down triple the missiles onto Indian cities.
You then sugar coat the whole thing by making references to the Mig-21 v F-16 disparity i.e. how it wasn't such a feat to down the Mig. This again is an outrageous skewing of facts when the USAF itself touted the Mig-21 with its R-73 missiles during Cope 2004, something which was splashed all over the Indian media machine, which also upset the USAF. But the euphoria in India was unmistakeable after the mighty USAF had their "clocks punched" (exact words of Indian outlets). Many of your defence experts said they felt pity for the PAF when they would face the Mig's, when the opposite happened, you literally disowned them, like you are now! What a joke.

Cope India: when India's Russian jets achieved a surprising 9:1 kill ratio against U.S. F-15s

According to Indian media an air exercise held ten years ago "highlighted the innovativeness of Indian fighter pilots, the impact of Russian jets and the

theaviationist.com

Low radar visibility, instantaneous turn rate, acceleration and the helmet mounted sight combined with high-off-boresight R-73 air-to-air missiles were among the factors that made the upgraded MiG-21 a deadly adversary for the U.S. F-15s.

Oh and the whole "chased them out" I guess you mean your Sukhois and Mirages who flew back at record speed rather than face annihilation at the hands of the PAF. At least poor Abi gave chase and decided to put up a fight in his "vintage" plane. Let's not even get into how you shot your own helicopter down, killing senior officers on board, and you expected this total shambles of a military to intimidate Pakistan? In reality they were taken back by the sheer response and morale hit rock bottom with the losses.
You really do try ever so hard to put a positive spin on everything, even though the world literally laughed at you.

So you can see India pushing for war, just like it did with China recently with it's many dead and loss of land. The bottom line India has been on the defensive on both fronts, and isn't confident of going to war.

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

The author is an idiot to think that any international agreement that helps India build a destabilising edge over Pakistan, while preventing Pakistan from gaining parity is going to work.

But that seemed to happen on the occasion of August 5, 2019.

- PRTP GWD

 

[M.Bison]

Pakistan needs to pursue R&D to hold pursuit of preferred tech. Unfortunately, it's existing techs are on mercy of India's adversaries who determine what is sufficient to be given to counter India.
It's quite explanatory about how Pakistan got hold of significant knowhows or ballistic & cruise missile systems without any real investment in R&D and why it failed to make any significant progress in these techs or failed to substitute them to develop new techs or diversify missile systems within inventory. Pakistan is far from being a yardstick or fulcrum in anyone's policies, is far away from making any impact to world. Only thing what's true is that it is still not small enough to be ignored.

Pakistan's R/D has been promising and frankly, it doesn't matter who the partner is. Mercy goes both ways..
India is at the mercy of Russia, a third world country that is begging for international sanctions to be lifted. You have to lease an aircraft carrier just to be in the club. We all know the controversies that came from that. When did you ever research or develop a submarine or aircraft carrier? Now the French are getting their share. Which part of the famed rafale is manufactured in Indan? let alone researched? It took you how long to get the Tejas flying and it was still rejected. Most of the parts are not Indian. Btw Rafale also has its controversies... There is a famous saying in India that even your agharbatis and "bhagwans" come from China.
I would say Pakistan is better off when compared to India in terms of R/D. Pakistan has researched and then developed many technologies for indigenous production. Again it doesn't matter who it works with. As long as it is able to procure the tech it needs to fight its enemies. If Pakistanis believe hypersonic weapons are needed for its survival it will procure them. Just as it did with nuclear weapons and other things. Btw I am not saying it is going to be easy but it is not impossible.

As far as the yardstick comment, it speaks for itself. You can get emotional and write an essay or take it for what it is. India is a regional power at best and does not have the materials required to become a world power. Mentally, Indians don't have the fortitude to be a power let alone be a "superpower". You will always be a second rate regional power that will need countries like Russia, the USA, and the European nations. These same nations have marginalized India when it comes to the world state and piecemeal power when they see fit. You can't even secure your borders. What will hypersonic weapons do when your *** is being taken on the heights of Ladakh with poles and sticks? Just look at what is happening to you in Iran, and Afghanistan. Again, Keep fighting Pakistan it will take you where you belong.

 

[Falcon26]

Hilarious, more holes in this post than Swiss cheese.
I'll pick one point.

Pakistan openly violated the Geneva convention according to many with the parading of your wing commander on TV, this is after he was allowed to be beaten by civilians. He was then released according to it, nothing more than that.

Pakistan may have violated Geneva Conventions after posting video of captured pilot

Pakistan’s release of a video showing a captured Indian pilot may have violated norms of the Geneva Conventions intended to protect prisoners from “insults and public curiosity,” according to experts.

www.foxnews.com

Did Pakistan break Geneva Convention after the capture of IAF pilot?

The videos of Varthaman first emerged on an unverified YouTube channel

www.theweek.in

.

The comments by Khan were for world consumption and there wasn't any fear of Indian 'retaliation' especially since you suffered a clear conventional defeat. Pakistan also clearly outlined that when there was talk of missile strikes on Pakistan by India after the air battle, Pakistan would rain down triple the missiles onto Indian cities.
You then sugar coat the whole thing by making references to the Mig-21 v F-16 disparity i.e. how it wasn't such a feat to down the Mig. This again is an outrageous skewing of facts when the USAF itself touted the Mig-21 with its R-73 missiles during Cope 2004, something which was splashed all over the Indian media machine, which also upset the USAF. But the euphoria in India was unmistakeable after the mighty USAF had their "clocks punched" (exact words of Indian outlets). Many of your defence experts said they felt pity for the PAF when they would face the Mig's, when the opposite happened, you literally disowned them, like you are now! What a joke.

Cope India: when India's Russian jets achieved a surprising 9:1 kill ratio against U.S. F-15s

According to Indian media an air exercise held ten years ago "highlighted the innovativeness of Indian fighter pilots, the impact of Russian jets and the

theaviationist.com

Low radar visibility, instantaneous turn rate, acceleration and the helmet mounted sight combined with high-off-boresight R-73 air-to-air missiles were among the factors that made the upgraded MiG-21 a deadly adversary for the U.S. F-15s.

Oh and the whole "chased them out" I guess you mean your Sukhois and Mirages who flew back at record speed rather than face annihilation at the hands of the PAF. At least poor Abi gave chase and decided to put up a fight in his "vintage" plane. Let's not even get into how you shot your own helicopter down, killing senior officers on board, and you expected this total shambles of a military to intimidate Pakistan? In reality they were taken back by the sheer response and morale hit rock bottom with the losses.
You really do try ever so hard to put a positive spin on everything, even though the world literally laughed at you.

So you can see India pushing for war, just like it did with China recently with it's many dead and loss of land. The bottom line India has been on the defensive on both fronts, and isn't confident of going to war.

Stated better than I could. The Hindu nationalists are desperate to paint a counter-reality picture despite an overwhelming evidence. Their failure to respond to PAF strikes and downing of their fighter jets combined with Modi’s meek admission of defeat and blurb about Rafales shows Pakistan’s dominance in the skirmish. But Indians can delude themselves about “penetrating deep into Pakistan” when in fact, they violated Pakistan’s airspace in a extremely limited manner and relied on stand-off weapons to “strike” their targets. PAF’s ability to go into Indian airspace unchallenged, forcing the so-called Raptors of the East sprinting away as “amraam dodgers” shows clearly who has the capacity of dominating who.

 

[araz]

If China feels Pakistan needs hypersonic technology to maintain the balance of power, Pakistan will get hypersonic technology.

It is not about what China feels. This is about our own threat perception and we should decide whether we need a counter to this or not. Whether this is going to be an indegenous effort or acquired tech a response will be in the offing.
A

 

[Indx-techs]

Hilarious, more holes in this post than Swiss cheese.
I'll pick one point.

Pakistan openly violated the Geneva convention according to many with the parading of your wing commander on TV, this is after he was allowed to be beaten by civilians. He was then released according to it, nothing more than that.

Pakistan may have violated Geneva Conventions after posting video of captured pilot

Pakistan’s release of a video showing a captured Indian pilot may have violated norms of the Geneva Conventions intended to protect prisoners from “insults and public curiosity,” according to experts.

www.foxnews.com

Did Pakistan break Geneva Convention after the capture of IAF pilot?

The videos of Varthaman first emerged on an unverified YouTube channel

www.theweek.in

.

The comments by Khan were for world consumption and there wasn't any fear of Indian 'retaliation' especially since you suffered a clear conventional defeat.

Seems that you didn't even bother to read the load I wrote. Achieving a conventional victory without a conventional war or skirmish when either side didn't even brought about actual conflict resources.

Question lies simply HOW?
The damn HOW Pakistan won or had any upper hand in skirmish in this entire sequence of events?

You are requested to also help me with understanding your vague, "The comments by Khan were for world consumption and there wasn't any fear of Indian 'retaliation' especially", given that Pakistan then immediately released POW and only backtracked from showcasing its capabilities to thwart India, giving more & more messages for international consumption for months while India kept on inviting Pakistan openly for conflict.

Feb. 27 was nothing and Pakistani armed forces celebrating this unconcluded half baked victory in skirmish (and not a war) like a national festival, only reflects that their state of affairs against India are a big NOTHING for the moment.

I really can't get the interpretation you are trying to make here. A war was essentially detrimental to Pakistan and Pakistani establishment was trying to escape the ruckus all the time.
Any denial to it is nothing more than a feel good syndrome.

You then sugar coat the whole thing by making references to the Mig-21 v F-16

Yeah, MiG-21 is old but still a good interceptor, not dogfighter like F-16. My entire argument anyway doesn't render Feb. 27 as anything. This event doesn't definitely frustrate or bother Indians, the way Pakistanis spam this thing everywhere as an achievement (may be their military has limited feats) really irritates the shit out of me. What exactly this was, seriously?

Pakistan also clearly outlined that when there was talk of missile strikes on Pakistan by India after the air battle, Pakistan would rain down triple the missiles onto Indian cities.

But then released pilot immediately & unconditionally and itself started a campaign to invite international intervention to avoid war.
I don't find a reason not to assume this as a rhetoric only intended for internal consumption.

India on Pakistan and not vice versa who possess logistical capabilities, numerical strength and steel production capacity to rain another with bombs. Common people are supposed to be taken away with this but Pakistani defence enthusiasts consuming it is the reason why I called them imbeciles.

You really do try ever so hard to put a positive spin on everything, even though the world literally laughed at you.

The world doesn't bother about Indo Pakistani conflicts anything more than, "Awe, these two countries at it again."

Just as me, most of them haven't been able to make anything out of this skirmish.

So you can see India pushing for war, just like it did with China recently with it's many dead and loss of land. The bottom line India has been on the defensive on both fronts, and isn't confident of going to war.

India has gained another set of cliffs in Ladakh anyway. Even if it doesn't, Indo China episode is an instance two countries pushing against each other and rejecting third parties unlike Pakistan who kept on backtracking.

Comparing China & India to India & Pakistan is just another instance of feel good acts.

Most of your post anyways was a straw man than pointing out any substance that Pakistan is a pole of power in the region.

 

[Indx-techs]

The author is an idiot to think that any international agreement that helps India build a destabilising edge over Pakistan, while preventing Pakistan from gaining parity is going to work.

There are no actions due to be taken to prevent Pakistan gaining any such capabilities given state of its industrial abilities and experience. Question lies whether have to help Pakistan to create a parity or not. US security structure is essentially reliant on its allies so that it can prevent its own hands from burning.

Simply, it is about strengthening regional challengers to neutralise influence of existing regional powers. Be it strengthening Saudis against Iran, technical & economic support to China in 70s & 90s post Sino Soviet split to nulify USSR, backing Pakistan against India till late 90s and even now, trying to field India, Japan, Southeast Asia & Australia against China. Disruption of this security structure turns region's balance of power entirely in favour of leading country and makes it a hegemon which results in decline of relative strength of USA against that regional power and puts implications for global status in future.

Basically, even after all efforts throughout the decades, power differential has made this model useless throughout IOR.

US EMBASSY CABLE ON COLD START DOCTRINE : WIKILEAKS
Security Implications

1. lndian Cold Start Strategy is a threat to strategic stability of South Asia. lndian growing military prowess I capabilities and aggressive designs are implied with war provoking intent by practical manifestation of Cold Start Doctrine.

2. Hit and Mobilize concept would further squeeze space for diplomacy I political maneuvers for avoiding conflict.

3. This strategy is likely to increase the threat in an unpredictable manner at various rungs of the escalation ladder.

4. It is inherently flawed to further engage nuclear South Asia in an arms race rather than diverting the efforts and resources to alleviate the social needs of the poor segments in the societies.

5. Strategic equilibrium presently prevalent in the Subcontinent would be impacted with negative repercussions.

Translation:

* That Indian Army will go out of hands of the agencies they can influence and stop military action (means Indian Government and diplomats). BJP this time in government is a cherry on cake.

* That the time required for US interventions has been eliminated with this doctrine!

* That their client state Pakistan will be beaten blue without US ability to intervene and help them by stopping Indian military actions.

* That the Pakistans false nuclear bluff breaking down may give India an edge.

* US may not be able to maintain security structure in South Asia based on false parity between India and Pakistan.

Question of efficiency lies on India based on its abilities to provide logistics.

Popularity of versus between India & Pakistan has substantially declined in articles, journals and books by Indian and international strategies. It declines every decade & I'm quite sure that articles like title of this thread have been increasingly common in Pak too.

 

[waz]

Seems that you didn't even bother to read the load I wrote. Achieving a conventional victory without a conventional war or skirmish when either side didn't even brought about actual conflict resources.

Question lies simply HOW?
The damn HOW Pakistan won or had any upper hand in skirmish in this entire sequence of events?

You are requested to also help me with understanding your vague, "The comments by Khan were for world consumption and there wasn't any fear of Indian 'retaliation' especially", given that Pakistan then immediately released POW and only backtracked from showcasing its capabilities to thwart India, giving more & more messages for international consumption for months while India kept on inviting Pakistan openly for conflict.

Feb. 27 was nothing and Pakistani armed forces celebrating this unconcluded half baked victory in skirmish (and not a war) like a national festival, only reflects that their state of affairs against India are a big NOTHING for the moment.

I really can't get the interpretation you are trying to make here. A war was essentially detrimental to Pakistan and Pakistani establishment was trying to escape the ruckus all the time.
Any denial to it is nothing more than a feel good syndrome.

Yeah, MiG-21 is old but still a good interceptor, not dogfighter like F-16. My entire argument anyway doesn't render Feb. 27 as anything. This event doesn't definitely frustrate or bother Indians, the way Pakistanis spam this thing everywhere as an achievement (may be their military has limited feats) really irritates the shit out of me. What exactly this was, seriously?

But then released pilot immediately & unconditionally and itself started a campaign to invite international intervention to avoid war.
I don't find a reason not to assume this as a rhetoric only intended for internal consumption.

India on Pakistan and not vice versa who possess logistical capabilities, numerical strength and steel production capacity to rain another with bombs. Common people are supposed to be taken away with this but Pakistani defence enthusiasts consuming it is the reason why I called them imbeciles.

The world doesn't bother about Indo Pakistani conflicts anything more than, "Awe, these two countries at it again."

Just as me, most of them haven't been able to make anything out of this skirmish.

India has gained another set of cliffs in Ladakh anyway. Even if it doesn't, Indo China episode is an instance two countries pushing against each other and rejecting third parties unlike Pakistan who kept on backtracking.

Comparing China & India to India & Pakistan is just another instance of feel good acts.

Most of your post anyways was a straw man than pointing out any substance that Pakistan is a pole of power in the region.

You literally just repeated the same hot air, bluster filled rant again.
I’ll like to ask have you heard of the saying “you can’t polish a turd”, with you’ve done throughout your posts.
It’s still hilarious to see you making out the events in February as some sort of construed win, when the aftermath was clear for everyone the world over to see, and no they did pay careful attention, which military wouldn’t, with a clash between to major air forces. In fact the pilots I spoke to at RIAT that year were also also laughing at what went on.
But in a way I do understand this could be some sort of therapy to deal with such humiliating episode as well.

 

[Indx-techs]

You literally just repeated the same hot air, bluster filled rant again.
You clearly never heard of the saying “you can’t polish a turd”, with you’ve done throughout your posts.
It’s still hilarious to see you making out the events in February as some sort of construed win, when the aftermath was clear for everyone the world over to see, and no they did pay attention.
But in a way I do understand this could be some sort of therapy to deal with such humiliating episode as well.

You know, you actually didn't need to give a response if you hadn't a real one. There can't be any other interpretation that Pakistani Armed Forces tried to play cheap PR on Pakistani public on initiating conflict but ended up only running away from it. Feel free to give any real contradiction for it if you have any.
Feb. 27 is a rhetoric good as Pakistani missiles/nuclear weapons being better than India or Pak being a counterbalance.

All of these listed up by Pakistani journos repeatedly, but miserable failures when comes to verification with figures or at least elaborations.

This post anyway again is entirely full of nonsense & straw men.

Pakistan's R/D has been promising and frankly, it doesn't matter who the partner is.

I would say Pakistan is better off when compared to India in terms of R/D. Pakistan has researched and then developed many technologies for indigenous production. Again it doesn't matter who it works with. As long as it is able to procure the tech it needs to fight its enemies. If Pakistanis believe hypersonic weapons are needed for its survival it will procure them. Just as it did with nuclear weapons and other things. Btw I am not saying it is going to be easy but it is not impossible.

Pakistan barely has any R&D budget or any bare instance of development of its own original intellectual properties same as it lags in civil sector. Off course the abilities of civilian sector directly reflects its general abilities. Pakistan lacks brutally in both.

The list of its strategic weapons is limited to a small array of BM & CM systems & fission nukes. Given those techs never have grown into development of AAMs, LVs or any diversified use of fissile material & most of military products are license produced.

Indeed India's high end programs have holes, those can't be compared to Pakistan who doesn't hold such a requirement list and Indian list will be exponentially long against Pakistan if we try to write.

India is at the mercy of Russia, a third world country that is begging for international sanctions to be lifted.

Specify how India is at mercy of Russia. Economically, militarily or technologically. Both even have frequent spats on deals since 2000. India's initial IP designs are all imported from France.
For the rest, India has never been a vassal state living under any umbrella since Indo Soviet treaty of friendship has expired.
Your "you also" arguments for tweaks & holes don't reflect stances largely as India holds issues with these countries, Pakistan doesn't dare to blink an objection against PRC.

You have to lease an aircraft carrier just to be in the club. We all know the controversies that came from that. When did you ever research or develop a submarine or aircraft carrier? Now the French are getting their share. Which part of the famed rafale is manufactured in Indan? let alone researched? It took you how long to get the Tejas flying and it was still rejected. Most of the parts are not Indian. Btw Rafale also has its controversies... There is a famous saying in India that even your agharbatis and "bhagwans" come from China.

This again is a strawman entirely. Any country without any basic initial experience of technologies before furthering R&D on it, will need to import and get used to use it and study it. China got a headstart because of Laurel satellite leaks from US. While we kept on studying for decades.

It took you how long to get the Tejas flying and it was still rejected. Most of the parts are not Indian.

40% imported by cost, 30% by weight or 20% in number of parts. Was remodified for new requirements after revision and in service & production these days. Rest of your claims are exaggerated due to accumulations during forwards. Further, Pakistan is far from designing & manufacturing an aircraft with FBW, this much maneuverability, avionics & its armaments like AAM seekers or AESA India did.

For sure India isn't in a league high enough to match US, Russia or China yet, it isn't in a league low enough to be hyphenated with Pakistan too.

You can get emotional and write an essay or take it for what it is. India is a regional power at best and does not have the materials required to become a world power. Mentally, Indians don't have the fortitude to be a power let alone be a "superpower". You will always be a second rate regional power that will need countries like Russia, the USA, and the European nations. These same nations have marginalized India when it comes to the world state and piecemeal power when they see fit.

World runs on substance than vague statement of "mentality". Lightly racist or judgemental considerations will only make you make more threads like this, wonder you with posting more comments like you are making here, how India did, this country must have leaked tech to them, Pakistani policy makers are fools & not far sighted with misplaced priorities and then spat with someone like me preaching about that invisible parity between India & Pak.

Colonial powers used to draw power from their colonies. WW2 left it for countries who had internal capacities. Simply, Population X Income = Total wealth which country translated into power. Given China & India were piss poor while US & Russian populations could exploit facilities of skill development and education, US & USSR emerged as superpowers and wrote history of 20th century. China & India have 40% world's population, even achieving a fraction of developed world makes it enough for anyone of them to make an impact to world.
This part lol:

"Mentally, Indians don't have the fortitude to be a power let alone be a "superpower"."

The "typical Indian lossers" type comments are commonly spammed by western & Chinese trolls on Indian forums. You aren't privileged to use them and using them won't make you ONE OF THEM. You are ONE OF US and world has similar prejudices about both of us. They think of you even lower because you have bigger national problems. This temporary method of feeling good can really hurt you later.

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

This thread now has everything and the kitchen-sink. From 1971 to Mig 21 to whatever.

TL ; DR

For anyone worried :

Does India has a hypersonic missile? NO. Not yet at least.

Does Pakistan need to worry? NO. Pakistan has a lot more to worry about existing weapons that India has deployed or is in the process of deploying.

 

[Figaro]

It is not about what China feels. This is about our own threat perception and we should decide whether we need a counter to this or not. Whether this is going to be an indegenous effort or acquired tech a response will be in the offing.
A

Actually he has a point ... if Pakistan feels it is indeed threatened by these Indian hypersonic developments, then it will very likely approach China for collaboration and possibly technology transfers given that it is one of the world leaders in this technology. But of course, the Indian test is pretty overhyped considering the relatively low altitude and speed.

 

[waz]

You know, you actually didn't need to give a response if you hadn't a real one. There can't be any other interpretation that Pakistani Armed Forces tried to play cheap PR on Pakistani public on initiating conflict but ended up only running away from it. Feel free to give any real contradiction for it if you have any.
Feb. 27 is a rhetoric good as Pakistani missiles/nuclear weapons being better than India or Pak being a counterbalance.

All of these listed up by Pakistani journos repeatedly, but miserable failures when comes to verification with figures or at least elaborations.

This post anyway again is entirely full of nonsense & straw men.

Cheap PR stunt, even though there were Indian losses. Ran away, when Pakistan was the one who pushed the escalation ladder.
Ok.

 

[khanmubashir]

The quickest way to make hypersonic is to install a guided glide capable warhead on a short range ballistic missile whose terminal velocity is already hypersonic


What India tested is scram jet engine air breathing but that's there media reports so take with grain of salt