India's Scorpene submarine programme delayed

[DMLA]

Well, German sub are the best. This has been the case since WWI and I have not doubt about the tradition and the technology continues.

As for the number and type of subs in the IN. What is the time frame for India to get that number? 2050?

It was supposed to be 2030. Frankly, I don't see any reason why that can't be achieved as far as SSK's go. I, however have my doubts about the SSN/SSBN fleet numbers. Looking at the platforms coming out now, we can expect the first 6 scorpenes to be in service by 2020. If IN exercises the option for 6 more, there should be 12 scorpenes by 2030. With regard to the second sub production line, there have been strong cues that a private player (most likely scenario this would be L&T) would get to build these in colaboration with a foreign yard. I personally feel, we should decide on a platform (U-214, etc) and get a few of these built by a foreign yard to ease the pressure on the deliverables back home.

The issue with increasing the SSN numbers is simply that of enough uranium. India currently has the ability to support 3-4 nuclear reactors at max. Even if the facilities are expanded (and it would seem that they are being expanded at RMP), we need to consider the supply to our reactors (those not under IAEA safeguards). Thus we are left with enough fuel for limited number of marine reactors for the navy. I am not sure how quickly we can expand the centrifuge network at RMP and how much importance is given to the same by the present establishment in delhi.

 

[RadyLeo]

is there any defense project in india which does not have the allegations of kick backs

I think the more appropriate question will be

Are there any defense deals in this world that doesn't have a kick back?

That's the reality of Arms business.. in my opinion

 

[sancho]

I believe one major reason was the apparent issues with U-214 (including the small customer base) when compared with the scorpenes. I am sure IN did its research before going for scorpenes. I have my doubts about the possible N-propulsion angle. Frankly, the deal wasn't that costly considering it was french !

Maybe, but in comparison with the German offer that was reported to be up to 30% higher and give also less in return (6x Scorpenes, first 3 without AIP, in comparison to 6x U214 + AIP upgrade for the 4xU209 subs).
There were some rumors that IN didn't liked the idea of having fuel cells, when docked at their ports in case of fire, or attacks. But if so, this propulsion couldn't be fielded in the new competiton and that would rule out U214, as well as the Russian Amur class, which uses the same AIP system and we had only the option for more French subs.
Btw, why small customer base? The German subs had always more customers than the French, not to forget that even France don't use these subs in their navy.

I still think there was more behind the deal and the only problem I see in integrating the N-propulsion, is to make is small enough and that would be exactly the field where we could use French consultancy. However, if the aim behind the deal really was only normal diesel-electric subs, IN did a major mistake!

wrt U-214, there was a report about the germans getting called up for meetings with brahmos and IN officials on integrating the VLS system on german design. The french and russians have also got such calls. I feel a VLS brahmos equipped U-214 (U-215? ) is a distinct possibility.

I read that too, but the French rejected that, because the displacement of Scorpenes after adding AIP populsion already exceed 2000t. I hope that this would be possible for U 214 though!

 

[DMLA]

Maybe, but in comparison with the German offer that was reported to be up to 30% higher and give also less in return (6x Scorpenes, first 3 without AIP, in comparison to 6x U214 + AIP upgrade for the 4xU209 subs).
There were some rumors that IN didn't liked the idea of having fuel cells, when docked at their ports in case of fire, or attacks. But if so, this propulsion couldn't be fielded in the new competiton and that would rule out U214, as well as the Russian Amur class, which uses the same AIP system and we had only the option for more French subs.
Btw, why small customer base? The German subs had always more customers than the French, not to forget that even France don't use these subs in their navy.

To be honest, even mesma would have similar fire related issues considering the close proximity of ethanol and oxygen. I agree that the french refused the possibility of fitting brahmos on scorpene but I believe that it was wrt the scorpenes which are a part of the current 6 (specifically the last three) and the french said that since AIP module was already been added for these boats, additional VLS module will make the submarine unfeasable. Having said that, they have not discarded the idea of brahmos VLS as a stand-alone on scorpene.

When I said small base, I meant U-214 when IN was making the decision. AFAIK, Greece was the only customer with a launched boat at that time and it was talking about issues with the same. The Chilean boats were in water at that stage if I am not wrong.

Ofcourse, the biggest unknown would be kick-backs ! I am sure there would have been some money greasing hands for this deal to get through!

At this stage, we need to have 3-4 U-214's built by HDW asap. A fast track deal will mean first boats from 2016/17 which would then add to the scorpenes and put a break on declining sub numbers. There is no other way. God knows what MOD is doing!!

 

[jha]

probably two years back ( i dont remember clearly) there was huge scandal on this scorpene deal...grand son of some admiral was involved in the procedure and kickbacks of around 1000 crores were suspected to be paid...however like always nothing came out ...

 

[sancho]

I agree that the french refused the possibility of fitting brahmos on scorpene but I believe that it was wrt the scorpenes which are a part of the current 6 (specifically the last three) and the french said that since AIP module was already been added for these boats, additional VLS module will make the submarine unfeasable. Having said that, they have not discarded the idea of brahmos VLS as a stand-alone on scorpene.

So you want to add Brahmos, instead of AIP propulsion? Wrong way imo, because subs need to be quiet at first, not heavily armed, at least not such smaller SSKs.


At this stage, we need to have 3-4 U-214's built by HDW asap. A fast track deal will mean first boats from 2016/17 which would then add to the scorpenes and put a break on declining sub numbers. There is no other way. God knows what MOD is doing!!

My personal choice would be, to get German HDW and French DCNS into a joint development of a NG AIP sub!

We already ordered 6 Scorpenes, order 6 more U214 and offer them the possibility of funding and co-developing the development and orders for another 12 NG AIP subs (2 build in Germany, 2 in France, 8 in India).
Instead of competing each other on exports they could join their capabilities to get an even bigger export market and our funds, orders and production capabilities (we have experience with the licence production of German and French subs now) would be a big advantage for them too.
For India this would be a huge advantage, getting new subs with latest techs, in fast production and with influence to which countries these subs can be exported! We never will influence France, or Germany not to sell U214, Scorpene, or Marlin subs, because these are their own, but if we were a partner we could block sales.

 

[DMLA]

My personal choice would be, to get German HDW and French DCNS into a joint development of a NG AIP sub!

We already ordered 6 Scorpenes, order 6 more U214 and offer them the possibility of funding and co-developing the development and orders for another 12 NG AIP subs (2 build in Germany, 2 in France, 8 in India).
Instead of competing each other on exports they could join their capabilities to get an even bigger export market and our funds, orders and production capabilities (we have experience with the licence production of German and French subs now) would be a big advantage for them too.
For India this would be a huge advantage, getting new subs with latest techs, in fast production and with influence to which countries these subs can be exported! We never will influence France, or Germany not to sell U214, Scorpene, or Marlin subs, because these are their own, but if we were a partner we could block sales.

Well I don't want scorpenes in any specific way but just clarified what I know about the French position. Personally, I would have preferred the German boat to have won the first time around. I hope the Germans prepare a new proposal which is good enough for the IN needs.

Unlike the mesma, the fuel cells are modular arrays and can be increased/ decreased in capacity if necessary with relative ease. wrt your idea regarding getting French and Germans to join hands, I feel a much more likely scenario will be any one of them joining hands to design a new one for and with india. But it is a nice idea nonetheless.

 

[sancho]

Well I don't want scorpenes in any specific way but just clarified what I know about the French position. Personally, I would have preferred the German boat to have won the first time around. I hope the Germans prepare a new proposal which is good enough for the IN needs.

Unlike the mesma, the fuel cells are modular arrays and can be increased/ decreased in capacity if necessary with relative ease. wrt your idea regarding getting French and Germans to join hands, I feel a much more likely scenario will be any one of them joining hands to design a new one for and with india. But it is a nice idea nonetheless.

I also think the German subs was clearly preferable in the first competition (if it was only about diesel-electric/AIP propulsion), but I don't think the proposal was the reason for rejection.
In the new proposal, I do see a chance to get maybe even U 212, because, the number that we could buy goes from 6-10 and Italy proposed the S1000 sub with the same AIP propulsion and some features from U212 too, so they wouldn't block U212 sale anyway.
The question is, will the Germans be ready to provide it?

Regarding a joint sub development, the German HDW wanted to join with DCNS before, but there were problems because of the involvement of French gov in it, while HDW is mainly a privat company. Not to forget that EADS with Airbus and Eurocopter already proved how capable the German/French combo could be.
However, for a joint development, they don't have to be one company anyway, so it is on us to play the cards right. New U214 subs from Germany, Rafale from France, A330 MRTT and Eurocopter Fennec from both are good reasons to join with us for such a development, don't you think?

I know that competitions gives us the advantage of different options and lower prices, but imo we should take the chance of the actual low economies in these countries and combine some competitions as one bigger deal on strategic level, like the one I mentioned above.
Even from the US we could get more, if we order new C130, C17, Apache and imo Ch 53 in a combined package, than always in single orders.

But just like you said:

God knows what MOD is doing!!

 

[angeldemon_007]

The German subs was faster to build, because of commonality to Shishumar class, which could have been upgraded with the same propulsion too and the offer was cheaper than the French offer.
Do you have any source of the german offer to india ???/ If so plz share. This deal should be under scanner 11 billion dollar for 6 subs ?/ Germans are ready to make 3 subs (u-214) for Pak at Karachi port. India can buy 33 in 11 billion $. And if India place this kind of crazy deal, germans will give tot without even asking for it. India can make 13 of them and rest, let germans, it would be really good for the country. I don't understand how is scorpene so expensive?/ Politicians are just trying to fill their pockets.

 

[ejaz007]

Scorpene Delivery to India Delayed 3 Years
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI
Published: 16 Mar 2011 10:47

NEW DELHI - Delivery of the first French Scorpene submarine being license-built in India has been delayed by three years, until the latter part of 2015, Indian Defence Minister A.K. Antony told the Indian Parliament in a written statement March 14.

According to the $3.9 billion contract signed in 2005 between India and France, construction of the first three submarines would begin in December 2006, December 2007 and August 2008. As per the contract signed with Mazagon Docks Ltd. (MDL), the first submarine is scheduled to be delivered in December 2012, and one each year until December 2017, Antony said.

Antony, however, told Parliament that the first Scorpene delivery will be delivered in 2015.

"As per the contract, the first submarine was scheduled to be delivered in December 2012 and thereafter, one each every year till December 2017. There have been delays due to initial teething problems, absorption of complex technology, augmentation of MDL infrastructure and procurement" of material. The first submarine is now scheduled to be delivered in the second half of 2015, Antony said.

India is already facing a shortfall in submarines. Currently, the Navy has 14 submarines and, by 2012, there will be nine, a senior Navy official said.

The news of the delay in the Scorpene delivery comes at a time when the Chinese Navy is building several nuclear submarines. China has about 30 modern submarines and few dozen older ones. The Scorpenes are being built under Indian Navy's Project 75, which was approved in 1997.

The Scorpene is a conventional submarine with diesel propulsion. It is 219 feet long and has a speed of more than 20 knots with a displacement of 1,700 tons. With 31 men onboard, it can remain at sea for about 50 days and can dive to a depth of more than 1,000 feet.

Scorpene Delivery to India Delayed 3 Years - Defense News