India's LCA Tejas in Trouble ?

[karmaa]

Indians already posting videos and crying about it...

Those posting such videos are stooges of muslim communist nexus , getting funds by china , govt of india is cracking down on such china funded groups operating in India.

 

[indushek]

Valid argument to describe the art and science of jet engines.

India is still a little far away from mastering it. If given a shove, it can’t produce 404 class engine for some time to come and any significant delay by GE can cripple Indian domestic fighter programs.

However, India knows the nature of Geo-politics and has’t put all the eggs in one basket. India has been in serious negotiations with French and the British for developing new engines for its future fighter programs. A deal with US has been already signed for GE414. Hence, this is not the end of the road for India.

For GE404, there can’t be an immediate replacement as changing to a new engine midway isn’t an easy solution but a complete redo.

It is also a little speculative that US has completely refused just because there is a news of a delay. Most likely a jumpy Indian media has to analyse each and every issue as if, it is a doomsday, while there may not be anything significant.

Abhi party shuru nahi hui hai. Some people on pdf have always started a party a little too early in the hope of mega win and have fallen flat on their faces. Not you, but many others have displayed poor judgement in this regard.


Great effort.

Now @Windjammer, would vanish from this thread. Because you have put more maths and logic in one post than he would have seen in his entire lifetime.

I might be wrong though, because stupid people have strange ways and logic to keep arguing.

The way our MOD is moving, GE engines are a stop arrangement only.

With Kaveri failing to reach the targeted thrust of 90KN, and stopping at 73Kn it had to be delinked from Tejas program. While the Babus slept on Kaveri, GTRE people kept fighting for more funding to take it forward.

Idiot babus didn't understand that, a indigenous engine is invaluable. Things are changing now, that the dry variant of Kaveri has had successful high altitude trials in Russia. Is under manufacturing with Godrej, to be integrated with Ghatak soon. All we need to work on is some more weight reduction, enhance the core section and the afterburner section as well to take it to 90KN.

Thankfully one step is taken towards it

https://twitter.com/x/status/1714273915764408569

They will integrate one Tejas with Kaveri for certification, which hopefully happens in next 3 to 5 years.

 

[indushek]

Those posting such videos are stooges of muslim communist nexus , getting funds by china , govt of india is cracking down on such china funded groups operating in India.

Subodh from Alpha Defense isn't a Chinese stooge man

Don't club everyone under it

Check the video and understand what he is saying

He is mentioning that, due to no self reliance we are at mercy of outside suppliers. He is absolutely true, as it was criminal of MOD to stop funding for Kaveri. Had we continued working on Kaveri (Which stopped almost a decade back, and I mean funding) , we might have gotten to some point by now.

Yes there is a delay, but none of us are aware why it has happened. Austin and Blinken are in India for 2+2 meet, and am sure this topic will be brought up. So let's hope things smoothen quickly

 

[buntalanlucu]

WHY it take long time to rush this jet into forward operational units ? they need it to replace MIG 21 but these jets are not even in full 3rd gen let alone 4th gen mode and it seem HAL is incapable to rush the project forward and IAF unwilling to take more in ?

 

[VkdIndian]

GTRE people kept fighting for more funding to take it forward.

I would have also done the same to GTRE, seeing their track recored. One person who knows about them told me that GTRE has more scientists per sq ft, than any other organisation in the country.
These people have got more than adequate time to develop just one engine. They lacked accountability and they deserve to be in the current situation.

They seem to be getting their act together, but Kaveri is a long way away from operational usage, even if it reaches the desired thrust ratings.

There are also issues about reliability and robustness of an engine even if it can produce the desired thrust. That’s where China has been struggling for a long time.

Hence, Kaveri is far away from actual usage. Best would be to get some niche technologies under an agreement and try to hasten the learning curve. Who would share it, remains a moot point.

 

[karmaa]

Subodh from Alpha Defense isn't a Chinese stooge man

Don't club everyone under it

Check the video and understand what he is saying

He is mentioning that, due to no self reliance we are at mercy of outside suppliers. He is absolutely true, as it was criminal of MOD to stop funding for Kaveri. Had we continued working on Kaveri (Which stopped almost a decade back, and I mean funding) , we might have gotten to some point by now.

Yes there is a delay, but none of us are aware why it has happened. Austin and Blinken are in India for 2+2 meet, and am sure this topic will be brought up. So let's hope things smoothen quickly

I know these china and muslims funded Indian so called woke liberal secular communists .

 

[Faceless]

These people have got more than adequate time to develop just one engine. They lacked accountability and they deserve to be in the current situation

Only if one needed just time and not funding to develop a jet engine.

The said just one engine was supposed to rival F 404 and M88, so let's not get into this debate

 

[HAIDER]

US Hesitates to Supply Fighter Jet Engines for India's Tejas: What's Next?​

US Hesitates to Supply Fighter Jet Engines for India's Tejas: What's Next?

The reported delays by American aerospace major General Electric to supply F-404 engines for India’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas could “affect the operational readiness” of the Indian Air Force (IAF).

sputniknews.in

The defense industry is not for Indians. They are a big import market.

 

[VkdIndian]

Only if one needed just time and not funding to develop a jet engine.

They had plenty of both.

The said just one engine was supposed to rival F 404 and M88

No one wanted the first one to rival these ones. It was supposed to only meet the design requirements and laid down QRs.

Let’s keep that discussion to another time.

 

[karmaa]

The defense industry is not for Indians. They are a big import market.

your defence industry is in darra adam khel .

 

[HAIDER]

your defence industry is in darra adam khel .


View attachment 998822

this is small manufacturer , you can t complete with even this guy .

This is Darra made ... you want more ..

 

[Faceless]

They had plenty of both.

No they didn't, they didn't even have 1/3rd the budget compared to their global competitors.

No one wanted the first one to rival these ones. It was supposed to only meet the design requirements and laid down QRs.

And the said laid down QRs asked for results comparable to F 404.
The required thrust was more or less equal to that of F 404

 

[karmaa]

this is small manufacturer , you can t complete with even this guy .

This is Darra made ... you want more ..

View attachment 998835

View attachment 998837

View attachment 998839

Export these to terrorists .

 

[VkdIndian]

No they didn't, they didn't even have 1/3rd the budget compared to their global competitors.

All Indian programs have much less funds than, similar programs in the west. A lot is available on the internet about the reasons for this. Development costs in India are much lower.
Was it adequate? I don’t know. The figures aren’t in the open domain and it would be only a speculation.

And the said laid down QRs asked for results comparable to F 404.

Nope. Again, the QR’s are available in open domain and also the reasons for Kaveri not being called a success. I may want Kaveri to be a success as much as possible, but the facts are stark in the face. And my nationalistic feelings wouldn’t make Kaveri a success.

 

[indushek]

I would have also done the same to GTRE, seeing their track recored. One person who knows about them told me that GTRE has more scientists per sq ft, than any other organisation in the country.
These people have got more than adequate time to develop just one engine. They lacked accountability and they deserve to be in the current situation.

They seem to be getting their act together, but Kaveri is a long way away from operational usage, even if it reaches the desired thrust ratings.

There are also issues about reliability and robustness of an engine even if it can produce the desired thrust. That’s where China has been struggling for a long time.

Hence, Kaveri is far away from actual usage. Best would be to get some niche technologies under an agreement and try to hasten the learning curve. Who would share it, remains a moot point.

You need to read more

A turbofan-based powerplant provides the requisite thrust to aerial combat vehicles for atmospheric glide and supermanoeuvrability. DRDO’s GTRE (Gas Turbine Research Establishment) started the project to develop an indigenous turbofan engine christened ‘Kaveri’ in 1986.

As a part of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)- ‘Tejas’ project, the turbofan engine was to be developed from scratch. Full-scale development of the powerplant was authorised in April 1989 as a 93-month programme with a budget of $55.3 million. The original plan called for 17 prototype test engines to be built. The first test engine consisted of only the core module christened ‘Kabini, while the third prototype was the first one to be fitted with variable inlet guide vanes (IGV) on the first three compressor stages.

The Kabini core engine first ran in March 1995. Test runs of the first complete prototype of Kaveri began in 1996 and all five ground-test prototypes were in testing by 1998, while the initial flight tests were planned for the end of 1999 with its maiden flight test onboard a LCA prototype to follow the next year.

However, progress in the Kaveri development programme was slowed by both political and technical difficulties. The United States imposed economic and technological sanctions on India following the Pokhran-2 series of nuclear weapon test explosions in 1998, thus hampering the transfer of critical aero-engine technologies and components from the US to India.

The Indian scientific establishment had to develop everything through in-house research in the following years and the first prototypes were found to be throwing up blades during ground testing. In mid-2004 the engine failed its high-altitude tests in Russia ending the hopes for its introduction with the first production batch of Tejas fighter jets. As the dillydallying continued through the first half of the 2000s decade, the engine had undergone 1700 hours of tests and had been sent twice for high altitude tests to Russia by February 2008.

Components are a key part of any engine, and developing everything in house takes a lot of effort and investment.

Indigenous combat jets and Kaveri turbofan engine: All About IAF's new aerospace plan

As the deal to procure 114 foreign fighter jets (dubbed as MMRCA 2.0) progresses, simultaneous efforts are also being made towards acquisition of indigenous fighter aircrafts for filling up the gaps.

www.indiatoday.in

Am not here to defend GTRE

Mistakes happen but what is important, is that we learn from it and come up with solutions. Once you de-link the program and stop funding, things slow down.

We should have started with help from experienced partner, but much like Tejas where we went all out to make a 4th gen fighter without a proper aerospace base, the same mistakes were done with Kaveri engine as well.

Thing is both these projects are ours, and the experiences gained are invaluable. It has to be taken forward, so that future projects can gain from the experience.

Getting niche technologies you say, while making a successful and reliable engine in itself is a niche thing. Out of 190+ countries in world, there are about four countries who can do that. Reliability of Chinese WS series is yet to be proved. Why would any of these four share niche tech, when they know India will use it to never come back for more?

They will lose millions of dollars of business

Don't forget selling weapons isn't just business, it gives a country huge geo political clout as well. So we need to keep working on Kaveri, as the other option is screwdriver on imported engine parts.

Only if one needed just time and not funding to develop a jet engine.

The said just one engine was supposed to rival F 404 and M88, so let's not get into this debate

They started a program which would have been better than these two, as the supposed thrust is 90KN. Kaveri dry in its present form, still provides about similar thrust to M88.

It's the afterburner section, where the work is needed.