India's K-15 Ballasic Missile tasked to take out China's Aircraft Carrier 'Liaoning'

[Fledgingwings]

Even though India has Big and dangerous weapons used to take out Big targets,yet it is insanely difficult to take out Heavily Guarded,well defended high targets like Aircraft Carriers.

 

[Stuttgart001]

Hey,

As an exercise, will try to answer to the best of my knowledge as per open sources.

Guidance system - IRNSS. Better known as the Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System.

Communication satellite - Rukmini. Also known as GSAT 7.

Recon satellite - Risat, Cartosat. There was supposed to be an ELINT satellite going up in 2014. But no news of that post 2012. There is also the rest of the IRS, but those are mostly civilian with a few of them used by the military intermittently. So they do have capabilities, but not as much as the Risat and Cartosat. A small bit on info, in the early 1990s we had the capability to pick out interesting things in Pakistan using our satellites. And I am not talking about the Mig 25s.

Repeater satellite - I am assuming you mean something like the INSAT series. Also used will be the P8s for relaying

AWACS - I am assuming you mean maritime reconnaissance. Yes, it exists in the form of P8-Is and the now retired Ilyushins. The IN Ka-31s act as AWACS. The Phalcons of the IAF will come into the picture only once the GSAT 7A is launched.

Now coming to the crux of the matter. Do the above work together and have they been tested? Yes. In a couple of exercises of the IN, they were tested in the IOR with Rukmini with the rest of the IN.

The most difficult part in attacking a CBG comes not from the attack part. This is the last part. It comes from first figuring out where it is. So you need to know it is somewhere in a said area of the IOR. Once you figure out area you need to pin point location. Once you figure out where it is, you need to relay this information and then move an asset to monitor it. Once you start monitoring it, you need to take a decision to trail it or abandon trail depending on weather conditions. If weather conditions are good, then you need to take a call on intent. For intent you need to alert the person or listen to chatter. If you need to alert, then the opponent knows you are monitoring them and have found them. Most times, if they know you know they are there what do they do?

Assume, in the end the kill order is given, then which asset will be used? Asset in the sea or asset from land or from air. If the CBG can defend against a BM what other options are used (Which exist btw). Depending on this the kill channel will kick in. Now, Indian missiles have the capability to hit a target in the IOR. This, as of date is the maximum range of our capabilities. If the CBG is further South, we cannot hit it. If its east of the Malacca, we cannot hit it. I am meaning surface launched missiles here. Not aircraft based release.

Where we are handicapped today is the 24x7 surveillance offered by the UAVs, which the IN is trying to procure. But that still is 5 years away. But to the crux of the question. Does the IN have the ability to take down a CBG? Yes. Does it have the capability to provide a 265/24/7 surveillance across the complete IOR today? No. Will it have the capability 5 years down the line? Most probably.

Naive.
The speed of a middle-range ballistic missile is so high and more than 10 matches that they could not be agile and not suitable for a mobile target.
The time window of an attack is so short that the radar mounted on the missile must distinguish carrier from other ships of the group accurately and timely. To enhance the accuracy , there are multi measures conducted simultaneously to direct the mounted radar to lock the carrier.
The satellite is not reliable enough, SSN is a better choice. If recon plane or AWACS could fly chose enough to carrier to give direction to missiles ,it will be better . All of these measures are under the condition that strong EW environment and self-defense system.
In addition, the satellites in the anti-ship system are not just one or two. It is a constellation of satellites include guidance and recon and comm and repeater styles all of which should cover the entire areas consistently.

To do that, it will cost a huge amount of money and lots of time.
1.propose the idea - anti-carrier by basaltic missile
2.design combat tactics
3.develop weapons or new equipments accord to the need of tactics
4.test the tactics and find the deficiencies
5.improve tactics
6.modify armament or design new weapons or new equipments
6.test again
...
still evolve


Aircraft carrier is not a oil tanker jogging and waiting for the attack .
It is escorted by a lot of powerful warships and SSN.
Even distinguishing it from others is very hard .

Only US could do that , and China could cover asian-pacific area for now, given so much effort have been made. There are a few of satellites launched every month in last a couple of years

 

[faithfulguy]

Hey,

As an exercise, will try to answer to the best of my knowledge as per open sources.

Guidance system - IRNSS. Better known as the Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System.

Communication satellite - Rukmini. Also known as GSAT 7.

Recon satellite - Risat, Cartosat. There was supposed to be an ELINT satellite going up in 2014. But no news of that post 2012. There is also the rest of the IRS, but those are mostly civilian with a few of them used by the military intermittently. So they do have capabilities, but not as much as the Risat and Cartosat. A small bit on info, in the early 1990s we had the capability to pick out interesting things in Pakistan using our satellites. And I am not talking about the Mig 25s.

Repeater satellite - I am assuming you mean something like the INSAT series. Also used will be the P8s for relaying

AWACS - I am assuming you mean maritime reconnaissance. Yes, it exists in the form of P8-Is and the now retired Ilyushins. The IN Ka-31s act as AWACS. The Phalcons of the IAF will come into the picture only once the GSAT 7A is launched.

Now coming to the crux of the matter. Do the above work together and have they been tested? Yes. In a couple of exercises of the IN, they were tested in the IOR with Rukmini with the rest of the IN.

The most difficult part in attacking a CBG comes not from the attack part. This is the last part. It comes from first figuring out where it is. So you need to know it is somewhere in a said area of the IOR. Once you figure out area you need to pin point location. Once you figure out where it is, you need to relay this information and then move an asset to monitor it. Once you start monitoring it, you need to take a decision to trail it or abandon trail depending on weather conditions. If weather conditions are good, then you need to take a call on intent. For intent you need to alert the person or listen to chatter. If you need to alert, then the opponent knows you are monitoring them and have found them. Most times, if they know you know they are there what do they do?

Assume, in the end the kill order is given, then which asset will be used? Asset in the sea or asset from land or from air. If the CBG can defend against a BM what other options are used (Which exist btw). Depending on this the kill channel will kick in. Now, Indian missiles have the capability to hit a target in the IOR. This, as of date is the maximum range of our capabilities. If the CBG is further South, we cannot hit it. If its east of the Malacca, we cannot hit it. I am meaning surface launched missiles here. Not aircraft based release.

Where we are handicapped today is the 24x7 surveillance offered by the UAVs, which the IN is trying to procure. But that still is 5 years away. But to the crux of the question. Does the IN have the ability to take down a CBG? Yes. Does it have the capability to provide a 265/24/7 surveillance across the complete IOR today? No. Will it have the capability 5 years down the line? Most probably.

In US, P8A is a sub hunter. But in India, P8I is an AWAC. .How did India transform a sub hunter to an AWAC. Would you or other Indian members care to explain?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

It would be a waste.Ballistic missiles in anti ship role are not mature yet,too many loopholes(china's funny df-21 test in the gobi desert on a stationery target for example)Hypersonic Brahmos 2 with same range as k-15 will do the job just fine.Any PLAN CBG in the IOR can be attacked from 3 dimensions,by our underwater subs with torpedoes and anti ship missiles,by our surface ships with massed brahmos/klub volleys and by air launched brahmos and harpoons from su-30mki and p-8 from andaman and south india.Such saturation fire from 3 dimensions would overwhelm any potential force PLAN could send unless they could somehow send a flotilla of 5 supercarriers.

 

[Stuttgart001]

In US, P8A is a sub hunter. But in India, P8I is an AWAC. .How did India transform a sub hunter to an AWAC. Would you or other Indian members care to explain?

This indian guy also don't how hard to stalk a carrier group .
P8A will not even find carrier group before it is found be a AWAC and shot down.

It would be a waste.Ballistic missiles in anti ship role are not mature yet,too many loopholes(china's funny df-21 test in the gobi desert on a stationery target for example)Hypersonic Brahmos 2 with same range as k-15 will do the job just fine.Any PLAN CBG in the IOR can be attacked from 3 dimensions,by our underwater subs with torpedoes and anti ship missiles,by our surface ships with massed brahmos/klub volleys and by air launched brahmos and harpoons from su-30mki and p-8 from andaman and south india.Such saturation fire from 3 dimensions would overwhelm any potential force PLAN could send unless they could somehow send a flotilla of 5 supercarriers.

Another silly with zero idea of anti-ship combat.

Like what most Indian said, their money, they cansquander it anyway they want. But Indians are inherently cheat. Penny wise, pound foolish people.

As of now, i have not met any professional indian military fan .
They only know names of weapons, but nothing about for what they are used and how to use .

 

[surya kiran]

Naive.
The speed of a middle-range ballistic missile is so high and more than 10 matches that they could not be agile and not suitable for a mobile target.
The time window of an attack is so short that the radar mounted on the missile must distinguish carrier from other ships of the group accurately and timely. To enhance the accuracy , there are multi measures conducted simultaneously to direct the mounted radar to lock the carrier.
The satellite is not reliable enough, SSN is a better choice. If recon plane or AWACS could fly chose enough to carrier to give direction to missiles ,it will be better . All of these measures are under the condition that strong EW environment and self-defense system.
In addition, the satellites in the anti-ship system are not just one or two. It is a constellation of satellites include guidance and recon and comm and repeater styles all of which should cover the entire areas consistently.

To do that, it will cost a huge amount of money and lots of time.
1.propose the idea - anti-carrier by basaltic missile
2.design combat tactics
3.develop weapons or new equipments accord to the need of tactics
4.test the tactics and find the deficiencies
5.improve tactics
6.modify armament or design new weapons or new equipments
6.test again
...
still evolve


Aircraft carrier is not a oil tanker jogging and waiting for the attack .
It is escorted by a lot of powerful warships and SSN.
Even distinguishing it from others is very hard .

Only US could do that , and China could cover asian-pacific area for now, given so much effort have been made. There are a few of satellites launched every month in last a couple of years

Hi,

You asked is the satellite network present and communication system in place in the previous comment. I have pointed out, naive as you claim, of the assets at disposal. Please feel free to point out deficiencies in the same. I am again talking about the kill chain, not the final asset used. Please also feel free to read up on the Indian satellites operational. There are 'constellations' and 'systems' up there.

Then you are talking about SSN and the recon planes. There is one SSN at present. As for the recon and final guidance, please do read up on the P8-I and what it is capable of. Please feel free to correct me.

As for your point on ballistic missiles, I do not think you understood my point. Whether a BM or some other mechanism is used depends on various other facts, which I am sure you are well aware of. To your point on whether classification of targets can be done. Yes. The IN has had that capability for quite some time, with its aerial assets and that has only improved with the induction of the Poseidon. There have been drills which I have alluded to. Now you can keep saying, it requires practice. Nobody is going to deny that.

And to your point on me not knowing how hard it is to stalk a CBG, please do point out which communication, relay, or whatever satellite you are talking about. Will point out the relevant Indian asset to you again as have done in the previous one. Surprising though it may seem to you.

To @faithfulguy please feel free to read up on the Poseidon capabilities before making comments. Its a recon aircraft in the IN and has other capabilities. The Awacs in the IN are as of date Kamovs, not Poseidons.

To put it in perspective in a short and sweet answer, the kill chain is present in the IN to take down a CBG in the Bay of Bengal, Arabia Sea and the IOR upto the latitude going south of Madagascar and this has been practised by the IN over the past 4 years. Including detection, monitoring, classification and targeting. Whether a BM or some other mechanism is for you to guess.

P8A will not even find carrier group before it is found be a AWAC and shot down.

Now you are going over board and getting into war gaming. Saying you have this asset and I have that asset. You said, the IN does not have the communication and targeting grid in place. I have pointed out each and every step of the way, with the deficiencies currently portrayed in the open domain.

Stick to your point on whether the kill chain is present or not.

 

[Stuttgart001]

Hi,

You asked is the satellite network present and communication system in place in the previous comment. I have pointed out, naive as you claim, of the assets at disposal. Please feel free to point out deficiencies in the same. I am again talking about the kill chain, not the final asset used. Please also feel free to read up on the Indian satellites operational. There are 'constellations' and 'systems' up there.

Then you are talking about SSN and the recon planes. There is one SSN at present. As for the recon and final guidance, please do read up on the P8-I and what it is capable of. Please feel free to correct me.

As for your point on ballistic missiles, I do not think you understood my point. Whether a BM or some other mechanism is used depends on various other facts, which I am sure you are well aware of. To your point on whether classification of targets can be done. Yes. The IN has had that capability for quite some time, with its aerial assets and that has only improved with the induction of the Poseidon. There have been drills which I have alluded to. Now you can keep saying, it requires practice. Nobody is going to deny that.

And to your point on me not knowing how hard it is to stalk a CBG, please do point out which communication, relay, or whatever satellite you are talking about. Will point out the relevant Indian asset to you again as have done in the previous one. Surprising though it may seem to you.

To @faithfulguy please feel free to read up on the Poseidon capabilities before making comments. Its a recon aircraft in the IN and has other capabilities. The Awacs in the IN are as of date Kamovs, not Poseidons.

To put it in perspective in a short and sweet answer, the kill chain is present in the IN to take down a CBG in the Bay of Bengal, Arabia Sea and the IOR upto the latitude going south of Madagascar and this has been practised by the IN over the past 4 years. Including detection, monitoring, classification and targeting. Whether a BM or some other mechanism is for you to guess.

Your article is too long to reply. If you are interested in anti-carrier tactic , go and study some anti-carrier tactics developed by red navy of Soviet Union that's pioneer. Then do some search about ballistic missile and conventional anti-ship missile and make clear that how they are guided and how they attack and the pros and cons of them.

There are a lot of details about the anti-carrier tactic and the application of special weapons ,all of which are studied by Chinese on the basis of tons of cash and tests and drills.

Just one point:
The strength of ballistic missile is its range and speed.
The anti-carrier ballistic missile is used to block the carrier group into war zone from a long distance ,given the range of DF-21D is 2000km.

If you want to sink a carrier only hundreds of miles away, the conventional weapons are more cost-effective.

Now you are going over board and getting into war gaming. Saying you have this asset and I have that asset. You said, the IN does not have the communication and targeting grid in place. I have pointed out each and every step of the way, with the deficiencies currently portrayed in the open domain.

Stick to your point on whether the kill chain is present or not.

Of course not.
China developed a lot of weapons and equipments to meet the special request of anti-carrier tactics.
You can not make an equation of two different things just because they have the same name.
There is a long way to go .
Do some research about the developing process of anti-carrier tactic of red navy , you will know it.

 

[faithfulguy]

Even though India has Big and dangerous weapons used to take out Big targets,yet it is insanely difficult to take out Heavily Guarded,well defended high targets like Aircraft Carriers.

It's doable. But
India even haven't created one yet. It's just brags that it can build one. India like to brag before doing anything.

 

[Star Expedition]

When India has almost same military power as our brother, his imagination has beyond the Southern Asia.

Get a thunder class jet flying is much feasible for their ambitions.

 

[surya kiran]

Your article is too long to reply. If you are interested in anti-carrier tactic , go and study some anti-carrier tactics developed by red navy of Soviet Union that's pioneer. Then do some search about ballistic missile and conventional anti-ship missile and make clear that how they are guided and how they attack and the pros and cons of them.

Are you saying the kill chain is present or no? We were discussing that. Not tactics.

 

[Stuttgart001]

For the last 20 years, China navy has been focusing on the problem how to sink a aircraft carrier that's US super carrier. Many tactics and relevant armaments are designed and developed and tested .
Now , India jumped out and made an assertion that they got the ability which they even do not how to use.
Claim your ownership of something before you make clear what it is.

 

[surya kiran]

It's doable. But
India even haven't created one yet. It's just brags that it can build one. India like to brag before doing anything.

Please point out in my post which part of the kill chain is absent to take out a CBG. Else, please refrain posting non sense like P8 I is an ASW asset.

For the last 20 years, China navy has been focusing on the problem how to sink a aircraft carrier that's US super carrier. Many tactics and relevant armaments are designed and developed and tested .
Now , India jumped out and made an assertion that they got the ability which they even do not how to use.
Claim your ownership of something before you make clear what it is.

Please point out which part of the kill chain is absent. Instead of saying China has just had it and hence somebody else could not have had it. We have been using CBG before the PLAN was still planning on one.

 

[Stuttgart001]

Are you saying the kill chain is present or no? We were discussing that. Not tactics.

The answer is no.
The assets of India is different from its counterparts designed to conduct the anti-carrier task.
Be a little professional and learn some thing.

 

[beijingwalker]

Whatever India can do, China can do that 100+times better.

 

[surya kiran]

The answer is no.
The assets of India is different from its counterparts designed to conduct the anti-carrier task.
Be a little professional and learn some thing.

Like I pointed out, I am ready to learn. Please feel free to point out which part of the kill matrix is absent to take out a CBG. And I am saying to take out a CBG. Not take out a CBG using BM.