India's First Scorpène-Class Diesel-Electric Attack Submarine INS Kalvari Rolled Out!

[Abingdonboy]

There is a difference between responsibility and accountability. The DM and UPA are accountable for the delay as they did not take corrective actions on a timely manner, but the responsible parties for the delay are Mazgon and the French.

The delays would not have taken place (or would have been minimised to a significant degree) if the previous DM had done his job and monitored the progress of defence projects- this has been echoed by not just the new DM but defence analysts and former senior defence personnel.

In the military you would be raked over the coals, face a court martial, be dishonourably discharged and lose your pension for such a dereliction of duty but the great "Saint" ended up becoming India's longest serving defence minister!

 

[lasttry]

The delays would not have taken place (or would have been minimised to a significant degree) if the previous DM had done his job and monitored the progress of defence projects- this has been echoed by not just the new DM but defence analysts and former senior defence personnel.

In the military you would be raked over the coals, face a court martial, be dishonourably discharged and lose your pension for such a dereliction of duty but the great "Saint" ended up becoming India's longest serving defence minister!

If I do well at work, I get a promotion. If I do bad at work, I get fired. If I do bad at work and have a boss that does not care, I still get paid every month, but I surely wont get a promotion.

Giving a clean chit to DCNS in the 7 year Scorpene delay is naive. Giving them another blockbuster deal hoping they wont screw up is the effect of naivety - gullible. The French know that we are naive - which is why there is so much haggling after they agreed on the RFP clauses for a certain sum and now want to fck around.

I have nothing against the Rafale deal. I think its a good plane. But there has to be clauses in the contract that will make sure the French stick to their deadlines.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Actually we don't fear Chakra, it's old tech.

 

[kaykay]

Exactly ... Which is why I said we got conned with this deal - paying three times the cost of a kilo class sub for a piece of trash that's not capable of much more than the kilos. At least the kilos can launch the klub missiles which are 3 mach with terminal maneuvering.

Some kilos(6-7 now) can launch Klubs only after upgardes recently and for the half of their life they were equipped with torpedos only. And no one is stopping India to equip scorpenes with Brahmos but then Brahmos-NG( 522 mm variant) is yet to be operational so expect it to be carried by all submarines in future once they are operational.

 

[lasttry]

Some kilos(6-7 now) can launch Klubs only after upgardes recently and for the half of their life they were equipped with torpedos only. And no one is stopping India to equip scorpenes with Brahmos but then Brahmos-NG( 522 mm variant) is yet to be operational so expect it to be carried by all submarines in future once they are operational.

True, but they are still many times as deadly as the Scorpenes due to their superior weapons complement. They may not be as quiet as the Scorpenes, but they carry way more punch.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Thats why is said, the scorpene will work for offence against Pakistani subs, but really does not have the teeth to fight Chinese subs or surface fleets.

Subsonic means outdated for todays CIWS that are capable of shooting down supersonic anti ship missiles with countermeasures and maneuvering terminal stages. The Exocet has none of these.

Having dissed the scorpene, all hope is not lost. Over the next decade the IN has to find alternate weapons systems to make this boat worth the tall sticker price. We have to replace the Exocet with a more capable anti ship missile (maybe the bramhos mini may fit the bill if it is made compact enough)

The Scorpenes and P-75I SSKs will be aimed at the PN and these vessels will keep the PN out of the picture, for the PLA(N) the IN is building up a fleet of SSNs to take the fight to the PLA(N) in the IOR in deep water (the SSKs will be kept close to Indian shores). As such the IN has about a decade to get its act together and get those SSNs churned out as the PLA(N) is in no position to start exerting itself in the IOR (a few showpiece deployments mean little but showcase an intent) and finally the GoI seems to have woken up to this news and has cleared a class of SSNs for the IN to be in service within a decade.

 

[lasttry]

The Scorpenes and P-75I SSKs will be aimed at the PN and these vessels will keep the PN out of the picture, for the PLA(N) the IN is building up a fleet of SSNs to take the fight to the PLA(N) in the IOR in deep water (the SSKs will be kept close to Indian shores). As such the IN has about a decade to get its act together and get those SSNs churned out as the PLA(N) is in no position to start exerting itself in the IOR (a few showpiece deployments mean little but showcase an intent) and finally the GoI seems to have woken up to this news and has cleared a class of SSNs for the IN to be in service within a decade.

I dont see where we disagree.

 

[sancho]

Because Navy does not want MESMA AIP because they think it would be potential risk (may be accidently) to Sub, Stirling is obsolete. So, DRDO is developing AIP on fuel cell based which would be ready between 2017-18. So first 4 submarine would be without AIP, which can be fitted during their first mid life upgrade.

That's not correct, the MESMA AIP was not ready and integrated into the Scorpene class, when the deal was made, that's why we didn't go for it right away, which was a big mistake by IN in the first place. Besides that DRDO was developing an own system and surely had blocked the procurement of the foreign system in the MoD. And if DRDO doesen't get it's own system ready and implemented to the Scorpenes in time, IN might face further delays of getting state of the art techs, while PN and PLAN already have it operational. Once again we make the security of the country dependent on the success of a DRDO development, instead of taking the availale foreign alternative first as a stop gap.

Btw, the first Scorpene's will not only lack AIP, but also the land attack capability of the Kilos, so it will lack on many fronts.

 

[kaykay]

True, but they are still many times as deadly as the Scorpenes due to their superior weapons complement. They may not be as quiet as the Scorpenes, but they carry way more punch.

Not really. Both Scorpene and Kilos have 6 torpedo tubes and both can carry 18 tarpedos/missiles). Even though Scorpene is smaller, It carry same punch as kilos.

 

[temp1994]

You cannot get exact location of submarine which fire Exocet from torpedo tube beyond 180 km away.
But one thing is absurd I think is Navy wants VLS for Brahmos for P75I project for 290 km range missile which definitely helps to locate submarine position.

Technically impossible.

You could either have AIP or VLS on a SSK. There are speculation about U-216 which could carry both, but they are just that; speculations.

AFAIK. IN wants a proper AIP for P75I, not VLS. The real reason that I think that project P75I was instituted rather than just ordering follow-on Scorpions (which would have saved a lot of money) was in order to get some crucial tech for our SSN's ,in fields where we are facing difficulty in indigenous production , via ToT method.

 

[Manindra]

True, but they are still many times as deadly as the Scorpenes due to their superior weapons complement. They may not be as quiet as the Scorpenes, but they carry way more punch.

Which is more important

 

[lasttry]

Technically impossible.

You could either have AIP or VLS on a SSK. There are speculation about U-216 which could carry both, but they are just that; speculations.

AFAIK. IN wants a proper AIP for P75I, not VLS. The real reason that I think that project P75I was instituted rather than just ordering follow-on Scorpions (which would have saved a lot of money) was in order to get some crucial tech for our SSN's ,in fields where we are facing difficulty in indigenous production , via ToT method.

Why is it technically impossible? You just need a large enough sub. The Amur class has VLS for Bramhos as well as AIP options when they offered to India.

Secondly, why does an SSN need AIP? I think you confused this with something else.

Which is more important

Whats the point in sneaking up behind a guy who has a sword when all you have is a bb gun? Also this is not an either or game. you need good weapons and have to be stealthy and quiet.

Sorry but I dont have an argument with you. I am saying that the Scorpene has a very bad weapons complement and you are coming back to me saying yeah but its stealth.

 

[Manindra]

Technically impossible.

You could either have AIP or VLS on a SSK. There are speculation about U-216 which could carry both, but they are just that; speculations.

AFAIK. IN wants a proper AIP for P75I, not VLS. The real reason that I think that project P75I was instituted rather than just ordering follow-on Scorpions (which would have saved a lot of money) was in order to get some crucial tech for our SSN's ,in fields where we are facing difficulty in indigenous production , via ToT method.

Saurav Jha's Blog : A look at the Indian Navy's Project 75I tender to #MakeinIndia six diesel-electric submarines
Submarine Matters: India's Project 75I Tender for 6 more SSK submarines one tiny step closer

 

[temp1994]

If you read through the last two pages, this is exactly what I have been saying. That the Scorpenes will not worry the Chinese and should not worry them as the weapons compliment will be ineffective against Chinese surface fleets. And that the Scorpenes can be at best used for anti sub ops against Pakistani subs. They do not have the teeth to deal with anything more.

The kilos are surely outdated, bu they carry some serious firepower. If they get within 200 km of a surface fleet, they can unload 8 Klubs within 5 minutes. Further they are also good anti air platforms against Naval air assets like anti sub aircraft or copters. The scorpene capabilities are laughable compared to that.

Even if it could carry more firepower, it does not have range and endurance to engage in open sea combat.

Pernicious range and endurance of SSKs was the sole reason why SSNs were required to begin with.

 

[Manindra]

Why is it technically impossible? You just need a large enough sub. The Amur class has VLS for Bramhos as well as AIP options when they offered to India.



Whats the point in sneaking up behind a guy who has a sword when all you have is a bb gun?

Sorry but I dont have an argument with you. I am saying that the Scorpene has a very bad weapons complement and you are coming back to me saying yeah but its stealth.

If you need a punch instead of stealth then why you need submarine ?
You can use destroyer for it which carry several time more punch.