India’s first bullet train corridor may be world’s cheapest high-speed service

[AndrewJin]

But Mumbai, Ahmedabad are two very rich cities, and if a bullet train runs which takes 2 hours, it will be heavily used. (Many people are sceptical of planes, and anyways, in India, check in and check out for planes may take hours) Railways always have a leg up for distances upto 700km.

Bro, I think you have spent too much time in China section, seriously, .

In China, same case, if we have a 800-1000km HSR, airlines are crying, then number of flights of this route will be shrinking to even zero. And one thing I have noticed about Indian railway, is that people mostly use railway for short distance, which in China, is largely dominated by city bus, suburban bus and intercity bus. My suggestion is, build more 200kph intercity lines, of a distance like 300-500km. Take Shanghai-Beijing Intercity for example, more than 200 pairs of bullet trains per day, and we are planning a second intercity in the next 5-year plan.

Also, I have very limited information over how that pricing model works. I am sure they wouldn't have included land costs, or rehabilitation costs. Are they only talking about operational costs? Or are they talking about price after including possible subsidy after operational cost?

In China, doesn't care about if a railway is built in mountainous region(high cost of construction) or built in plains(low cost), prices are the nearly the same, like Rs 4.2-4.6/km for 300km/h, Rs 2.6-2.8/km for 200-250km/h. Of course, huge subsidy from central government, very few HSRs profitable around the world.

As I say, most middle class people will travel in ACs, and ACs are common in middle class homes.
How do you define it?

Let's say a family of 4 where the parents earn 10 lakh annual income are middle class, and will always chose AC coach.

10 lakh mean, a million ruppees, which mean 100,000 yuan broadly (I have taken 1 yuan = 10 ruppee)

Also, remember if we are talking about living standards of people, in that case PPP is a better criterion to measure. So in that way lets say the living standard is around 200,000 yuan. (By assuming a factor of PPP adjustment to be 2)

Why not give lowest class on the train A/C? I don't think too much cost, you know how hot it is! Today in Wuhan, walking on the street drove me crazy, I couldn't imagine take a non-A/C bus.

 

[Speeder 2]

India’s first bullet train corridor, between Mumbai and Ahmedabad, could turn out to be the cheapest high-speed train service in the world.

The Japanese team working on its feasibility study has worked out its “fare box revenue” model, according to which the bullet train fare will be just one-and-a-half times more than the AC-I fares of other trains on the same route.

According to this model, the Mumbai-Ahmedabad bullet train fare works out to about Rs 2,800, calculated on the basis of the current AC-I train fare of Rs 1,895. Currently, trains on this route take about eight hours for the 534-km journey. The bullet train is expected to take less than two hours.

Japan’s Tohoku Shinkansen (Hayabusa trains) charges about Rs 8,000 for a 713-km ride on the Tokyo-Shin-Aomori sector. A second class ticket on China’s Jinghu High Speed Railway for the Beijing-Shanghai route costs over Rs 5,000.

In India, initial estimates a few years ago had pegged the fare for this corridor to be in the same range. Officials, however, said the latest study of the possible fare model gives a more realistic picture.

The report is likely to be submitted to the Railways Ministry in July. The Japanese team carried out a survey of people travelling on the proposed corridor, asking them how much they would like to pay for a bullet train service with a speed of about 320 kmph. Apart from the complex mathematics of the fare box revenue model, the feedback obtained from the people was also factored in while calculating the likely fare, said sources.

As per the team’s estimates, about 40,000 people are going to use the corridor every day by 2023 — when the bullet train service is expected to begin. The AC-1 fares for this sector in 2023 would serve as the reference for the bullet train fares.

The study found that pricing the tickets any higher would make the flights a more attractive option, and any lower would not support the maximum revenue generation. By keeping the fares low, the bullet train will be able to steer clear of a fare war with airlines, while also retaining the existing business of higher-class railway travel.

The corridor is expected to have around 10 stations, and is supposed to cost Rs 98,000 crore, after factoring in inflation and taxes. Work on the corridor is expected to be completed about eight years after it is commissioned.

- See more at: India’s first bullet train corridor may be world’s cheapest high-speed service | The Indian Express

Dunno it's the cheapest or not, I just want to know if they still plan to sell soft drinks on its rooftop?

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

Bro, I think you have spent too much time in China section, seriously, .

In China, same case, if we have a 800-1000km HSR, airlines are crying, then number of flights of this route will be shrinking to even zero. And one thing I have noticed about Indian railway, is that people mostly use railway for short distance, which in China, is largely dominated by city bus, suburban bus and intercity bus. My suggestion is, build more 200kph intercity lines, of a distance like 300-500km. Take Shanghai-Beijing Intercity for example, more than 200 pairs of bullet trains per day, and we are planning a second intercity in the next 5-year plan.


In China, doesn't care about if a railway is built in mountainous region(high cost of construction) or built in plains(low cost), prices are the nearly the same, like Rs 4.2-4.6/km for 300km/h, Rs 2.6-2.8/km for 200-250km/h. Of course, huge subsidy from central government, very few HSRs profitable around the world.


Why not give lowest class on the train A/C? I don't think too much cost, you know how hot it is! Today in Wuhan, walking on the street drove me crazy, I couldn't imagine take a non-A/C bus.

I am not sure if its a good idea to build HSR simply for the sake of doing so. You know how these are financed right? Banks, loan out people's earnings to local governments, and corporations, to build this stuff.

Ultimately if the economic gain brought is good, than its fine. But otherwise it can become a burden. Also, this whole system will become outdated in lets say 30 years, totally. So than you will have to replace it. But that will need new tracks. And as you yourself have said previously, the current tracks won't work for higher speed trains because of radius of curvature. That means the tracks can't be simply built parallel to current ones.

Also, China's project to build Beijing-Moscow line is not good. It is simply to absorb the excess capacity that you have built. No one is going to travel Beijing to Moscow, and take almost a day to do so. For such distances, Airtravel is still good.

Finally, you are very much a middle class, who is used to AC. The people who are not used to ACs, for them it is just another day. I am a middle class person, and I travel in AC 2nd tier generally. I am also used to AC, and can't imagine being in the General Bogies. Plus, they are dirty like shit!

 

[AndrewJin]

I am not sure if its a good idea to build HSR simply for the sake of doing so. You know how these are financed right? Banks, loan out people's earnings to local governments, and corporations, to build this stuff.

Ultimately if the economic gain brought is good, than its fine. But otherwise it can become a burden. Also, this whole system will become outdated in lets say 30 years, totally. So than you will have to replace it. But that will need new tracks. And as you yourself have said previously, the current tracks won't work for higher speed trains because of radius of curvature. That means the tracks can't be simply built parallel to current ones.

Also, China's project to build Beijing-Moscow line is not good. It is simply to absorb the excess capacity that you have built. No one is going to travel Beijing to Moscow, and take almost a day to do so. For such distances, Airtravel is still good.

Finally, you are very much a middle class, who is used to AC. The people who are not used to ACs, for them it is just another day. I am a middle class person, and I travel in AC 2nd tier generally. I am also used to AC, and can't imagine being in the General Bogies. Plus, they are dirty like shit!

30 years? Don't know what u mean, building a parallel doesn't mean the old one cannot work. We are building a second Shanghai-Nanjing simply because the first one is 100% used, not to show off our fiscal capacity.

I don't mean I am middle class or not, just saying A/C belongs to general public, hard seat is our lowest class of seat, but why not a/c hard seat? A 16-car traditional train in China generally has 1-2 car of soft bed, 7-8 cars of hard bed, 8 cars of hard seat, all A/C car. And I also don't think taking HSR in China means u belong to middle class, there are a lot of income analysis about HSR travelers conducted by World Bank.

 

[Shotgunner51]

Dunno it's the cheapest or not, I just want to know if they still plan to sell soft drinks on its rooftop?

Selling soft drinks on rooftop at a speed of 300km/h? That will take some special yoga to do dude!

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

30 years? Don't know what u mean, building a parallel doesn't mean the old one cannot work. We are building a second Shanghai-Nanjing simply because the first one is 100% used, not to show off our fiscal capacity.

I don't mean I am middle class or not, just saying A/C belongs to general public, hard seat is our lowest class of seat, but why not a/c hard seat? A 16-car traditional train in China generally has 1-2 car of soft bed, 7-8 cars of hard bed, 8 cars of hard seat, all A/C car. And I also don't think taking HSR in China means u belong to middle class, there are a lot of income analysis about HSR travelers conducted by World Bank.

No, I don't say they won't work. (Though they will increasingly require more maintenance). But that they will get outdated.

Tell me. Can 500kmph trains run on Beijing to Shanghai route?
On the existing rails?
On new rails that are completely parallel to the current ones? (Which means using the exact same tunnel, bridge, over pass that the old ones used, which will reduce cost?)
Or new bridges or tunnels will also have to be laid?

Also, how is China planning to pay all the local debt incurred?

 

[AndrewJin]

No, I don't say they won't work. (Though they will increasingly require more maintenance). But that they will get outdated.

Tell me. Can 500kmph trains run on Beijing to Shanghai route?
On the existing rails?
On new rails that are completely parallel to the current ones? (Which means using the exact same tunnel, bridge, over pass that the old ones used, which will reduce cost?)
Or new bridges or tunnels will also have to be laid?

Also, how is China planning to pay all the local debt incurred?

Even 200km/h semi-HSR never get outdated. You don't get the point, to build a second one means the first one is overused. If u mean 300km/h will be outdated in India, please even don't upgrade your old lines from less than 100km/h to 160km/h, which was done in 1990s in China.

parallel

Now two 350km/h HSR and one 200-250km/h old upgrade line connecting Shanghai-Nanjing.
Your definition of parallel is too narrow.

 

[RisingShiningSuperpower]

There is no need for high-speed rail in India.

Modi-ji and his capable ministers are working hard to uncover ancient Vedic technologies such as gravity manipulation and teleportation. Once these technologies are mastered, India won't need high-speed rail or air travel because people will get to their destinations through instant teleportation.

I have no doubt that a national-wide network of teleportation portals will be built by 2020!

 

[HRM YANG]

you get

There is no need for high-speed rail in India.

Modi-ji and his capable ministers are working hard to uncover ancient Vedic technologies such as gravity manipulation and teleportation. Once these technologies are mastered, India won't need high-speed rail or air travel because people will get to their destinations through instant teleportation.

I have no doubt that a national-wide network of teleportation portals will be built by 2020!

Great! I want try it Mr2020

 

[mike2000 is back]

Dunno it's the cheapest or not, I just want to know if they still plan to sell soft drinks on its rooftop?

you are a troll, but man that got me Laughing my *** out.

Thanks for tagging me. Let me give you numbers about similar 500km+ train in different class.



Very true, bro.
The following routes are around 520-550km, similar to Mumbai-Ahmedabad.

1, 300km/h G train, second class
Shanghai-Suzhou East (宿州东), 558km, 2h20min, 254yuan(Rs 2599)
Second class of G train
View attachment 232684

2，200-250km/h D train, second class
Shenzhen SEZ- Xiamen North, 514km, 3h20min, 140yuan(Rs 1432)
Second class of D train
View attachment 232685

3, traditional train, 120-160km/h, soft bed/ hard bed/ hard seat
Beijing-Taiyuan, 524km, 5h10min

Soft Bed, 205yuan(Rs 2100)
View attachment 232687
View attachment 232688

Hard Bed, 133yuan (Rs 1361)
View attachment 232691

Hard Seat(A/C), 75yuan(Rs 767)
View attachment 232692
View attachment 232693



You are right. The current income of India doesn't support HSR if the price is Rs2800 for 534km, which to me, is first class price. They have to subsidise ticket prices, you know only Tokyo-Osaka and Beijing-Shanghai HSR and several other HSRs in China are profitable.

In China, if a train is A/C train, all cars are quipped with A/C, no matter hard/soft bed or seat. If a train is non-A/C, all cars are non-A/C. Non-A/C train is almost non-existence, the only A/C trains become popular among railway fans. And we are crying.

Railway fans said goodbye to the final day of the last non-A/C train in Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region in Southeast China
View attachment 232710


@Bussard Ramjet What's your opinion about the prices of future HSR in India?

You are very knowledgeable about railways man. Why don't you work in ministry of railways, i'm sure they will value your inputs a lot.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

A/C is luxury???
In China, if a train is A/C train, all cars including the lowest hard seat are A/C cars.
If a train is non-A/C(hardly seen nowadays), even soft bed, or deluxe soft bed has not A/C. We don't have that in Wuhan.


How to define Indian middle-class? Anyone who has A/C at home?

I think you do not have a complete understanding of Indian Railways. IR as a whole do not make a profit. There are opposition from parties to even try to make it work like a company. According to them, Railway is like a service to people.

In an IR, full AC trains are present, but very less. Lets say like some 20-25 trains in whole of India (including the luxurious ones).
Other trains contains, 2nd seating, sleeper class, 3rd AC, 2nd AC and 1st AC and even 2 unreserved coaches in every train. The second class seating for Chennai-Madurai (approximate 500 km) for non AC is just 16 RMB and Sleeper for the same is 23 RMB. For an 1st class AC it is 120 RMB something.

So the Bullet trains are targeted for those who can afford it. By 2023, when the time for the starting, air charges will have increased. I think the cost estimate of 2800 in 2023 is fair and reasonable .

 

[AndrewJin]

you are a troll, but man that got me Laughing my *** out.



You are very knowledgeable about railways man. Why don't you work in ministry of railways, i'm sure they will value your inputs a lot.

I am not an expert, Mickey, I just know general facts like a normal railway fans!
I have once entered a locomotive in a fans day of a local railway depot.

A lot of my friends have been to India just to see their railway, universal love of railways around the world!
And they managed to get inside, I envy indian railway fans, so easy!
Calcutta-Dehli!

I think you do not have a complete understanding of Indian Railways. IR as a whole do not make a profit. There are opposition from parties to even try to make it work like a company. According to them, Railway is like a service to people.

In an IR, full AC trains are present, but very less. Lets say like some 20-25 trains in whole of India (including the luxurious ones).
Other trains contains, 2nd seating, sleeper class, 3rd AC, 2nd AC and 1st AC and even 2 unreserved coaches in every train. The second class seating for Chennai-Madurai (approximate 500 km) for non AC is just 16 RMB and Sleeper for the same is 23 RMB. For an 1st class AC it is 120 RMB something.

So the Bullet trains are targeted for those who can afford it. By 2023, when the time for the starting, air charges will have increased. I think the cost estimate of 2800 in 2023 is fair and reasonable .

Of course, general people will feel it more affordable after years, but u should built it from now, or investment double or triple in just a couple of years.

And do you have plans to replace non-A/C for the poor? I cannot imagine traveling in non-A/C train when it's 40-50 degree!

 

[Capt.Haddock]

A/C is luxury???

A/C is luxury compared to the non-A/C ones, and then there are different levels of luxury in A/C coaches, A/C chair car, A/C 3-tier, A/C 2-tier and A/c 1st class, which are like private cabins.

Being a new member I cannot post links, so I had to post an image above.

Btw, before joining this forum do all Chinese members go through some kind of training to behave in a particularly unpleasant manner?

 

[East or West India Best]

Why are there so many mongloids in our subforum?

 

[HRM YANG]

Modi's India has the most comfortable moving paradise on the tracks!
We have the highest speed, thanks to Modi!
Don't panic, Chinamen and Pakistani, he is coming to you and help you!
View attachment 232759

Stupid son, wh@t the F Is YOUR PICTURE? HINDUSTANIPPON railway?