India's Fighter Jet Negotiations Stall Over Delivery Commitments

[NKVD]

Just buy a couple of sqdns and get it over with - why get into such complicated agreements that takes more than 2 years and isnt even close to concluding?

The SAAB offer makes more sense now.

What are talking about just making a assumptions on Some Random article You think MOD will squash a whole deal which at it final stages of Negotiations It's BS these type articles are coming out regularly in the media and the truth is some of them are Paid and made by armlobist's Many of these Articles are Prooved to be Wrong in the past And may be In the future.

 

[acid rain]

What are talking about just making a assumptions on Some Random article You think MOD will squash a whole deal which at it final stages of Negotiations It's BS these type articles are coming out regularly in the media and the truth is some of them are Paid and made by armlobist's Many of these Articles are Prooved to be Wrong in the past And may be In the future.

You think someone will be dense enough to spread misinformation about MOD, HAL and Dassault all at the same time.

It is amply clear that HAL and Dassault arent able to get on the page - what will be the future course can be easily guaged from whats happening till now.

HAL isnt even ready to give a commitment about timely deliveries - have you wondered why?.

 

[Muslimdaughter]

Executives from Dassault were unavailable for comment.

 

[Sergi]

I don't buy this news one bit. This issue raised its head LAST year and was said to have been sorted out since then, the article makes no mention of this and doesn't explain why an issue that was overcome is now raising its head again.

Secondly a few weeks ago the MoD said it was looking to sign this deal in the next 3 months now there is an unnamed (aren't they always in BS articles ?) claiming that a signing isn't likely even in the next 6 months? I don't believe a word of it.


In truth there is a LOT of BS around this whole procurement and the MoD's tight lipped policy on all things relating to procurement doesn't help matters, it only fuels the fires of speculation. From what i've heard I think we will be seeing a signature by the end of September...

Only BS in the article is Stall !!!!
Everything else is true. IAF want the timeline in writing for obvious reasons and HAL doesnt want that for obvious reasons
Solution came out as increased off-shelf deliveries to maintain Sqd numbers. But nothing come out of MOD since.
apparently I have heard HAL has objections on cutting their production numbers too
(@sandy_3126 your sight needed. Whats going with HAL ??? Any guesses ????

 

[NKVD]

HAL isnt even ready to give a commitment about timely deliveries - have you wondered why?.

Its not because HAL don't Posses logistics to do so but it has Many more Projects in Hand Rather MMRCA .If with ToT HAL Can Produce Mki's Why Not Rafale's Difference Btw two Fighters are Not that Wide's .Secondly The Dassault Part is Also Not very clear they think HAL is Not Suitable to Produce upto there Standards And hence Don"t want too take Responsibility of Hal Produced Rafale's Which A Egoistic Claim As HAL produce Su-30 Mki which One of the Most Formidable 4.5 gen Fighters in the World. Well Negotiations are going-on,have included industrial coordination, as well as straight workshare. For instance, RBE2-AA AESA radar production will be outsourced to state-owned Bharat-Electronics Ltd (BEL) in Bangalore, while the corresponding radome will be manufactured by HAL. One step toward the agreement involved HAL setting up a new facility close to the one that BEL has in Bangalore, so that issues with radome or radar production won’t create compatibility problems that leave India’s Rafales unable to meet acceptance tests.

 

[MilSpec]

Only BS in the article is Stall !!!!
Everything else is true. IAF want the timeline in writing for obvious reasons and HAL doesnt want that for obvious reasons
Solution came out as increased off-shelf deliveries to maintain Sqd numbers. But nothing come out of MOD since.
apparently I have heard HAL has objections on cutting their production numbers too
(@sandy_3126 your sight needed. Whats going with HAL ??? Any guesses ????

This is a prime example of morons who cannot hack it anywhere else and thus become psuedo-journalists.

The issue is HAL will ask for Phase I and Phase II of ToT with all FAI's and PPAP's as new product launch. Now Dassualt knows that for completion of all production part approval process it would need to revisit it's delivery schedule. In it's delivery commitments the standard work that DB has set for it's line is not possible as DB has an established line and HAL will have brand new line.

HAL needs DB to provide Takt time based on the estimated learning curve, needs revised takt's for production lines, system of first article inspections, and documentation for manufacturing engineering support. If DB doesn't commit to it, then i say just screw it and cut down the order to 50 aircraft.

Intra agency ToT demand the origin point to provide support and plan the infrastructure. in our last project, we transfered an entire production line to brazil with 28% reduction in total takt time, with an increased labor productivity of 30%.... HAL's demand is not unrealistic by any means when it comes to ToT. All HAL is asking for proper delivery of ToT. That means DB needs to fly in assembly jigs an fixtures, dry run kits and CKD's for phase I in time. For Phase 2 DB needs to commit for transfer of PPAP's and production drawings on time and for PIIIA and PIIIB, provide training resources in time.

this translates into escalation of cost on DB's side as they will have to divert Engineering, quality, and operations resources from paris, which they are unwilling to.

 

[acid rain]

Its not because HAL don't Posses logistics to do so but it has Many more Projects in Hand Rather MMRCA .If with ToT HAL Can Produce Mki's Why Not Rafale's Difference Btw two Fighters are Not that Wide's .Secondly The Dassault Part is Also Not very clear they think HAL is Not Suitable to Produce upto there Standards And hence Don"t want too take Responsibility of Hal Produced Rafale's Which A Egoistic Claim As HAL produce Su-30 Mki which One of the Most Formidable 4.5 gen Fighters in the World. Well Negotiations are going-on,have included industrial coordination, as well as straight workshare. For instance, RBE2-AA AESA radar production will be outsourced to state-owned Bharat-Electronics Ltd (BEL) in Bangalore, while the corresponding radome will be manufactured by HAL. One step toward the agreement involved HAL setting up a new facility close to the one that BEL has in Bangalore, so that issues with radome or radar production won’t create compatibility problems that leave India’s Rafales unable to meet acceptance tests.

You think MKI's production is on schedule?.

 

[NKVD]

You think MKI's production is on schedule?.

Well Its better than Any Developing Country in World And good As per Indian Standards, Still Better Even its Include third Party(Israel)In It . Look these Problems Will go With Time. As Mod Favored 100% FDI Many Firms Like BAE and others Are shown there Interest In Modernizing Indian Production Facilities Hope It Starts As Soon As Possible .

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Executives from Dassault were unavailable for comment.

Why, did you try talking to Dassault?

 

[acid rain]

Well Its better than Any Developing Country in World And good As per Indian Standards, Still Better Even its Include third Party(Israel)In It . Look these Problems Will go With Time. As Mod Favored 100% FDI Many Firms Like BAE and others Are shown there Interest In Modernizing Indian Production Facilities Hope It Starts As Soon As Possible .

Why would they propose to improve if it was great and nothing wrong in Dassault not being happy with HAL's infrastructure according to their standards and also not wrong in their refusal to take blame for HAL's delays entirely on themselves.

 

[Mav3rick]

I don't get it, once the technology stands transferred and all deliveries to India are as per schedule, then is it not the responsibility of HAL to deliver according to the timelines? And even more importantly, if HAL is indeed late in delivering the Jets to IAF the IAF would still have atleast 1 operational squadron, delivered by Dassault, while work continues at HAL on the rest......is that not the win-win situation, even if not ideal???

 

[NKVD]

Why would they propose to improve if it was great and nothing wrong in Dassault not being happy with HAL's infrastructure according to their standards and also not wrong in their refusal to take blame for HAL's delays entirely on themselves.

Defense Manufacturing is very Complex Process For Evolving Indian Aeronautical Industry You Cant compare Us With Old Established Firms Like BAE,or Dassault We are Improving As for Dassault We are Paying them Handsome Amount They Should be compromised Like Russians If they Want to Crack this Deal. Dassault is in more Need for this deal then Us We have options they have Don,t They will not get to Sell there Aircraft if they Loose this Deal.

 

[Kompromat]

Shubh Samachar for PAF.

@Dazzler @Hyperion @Oscar

 

[MilSpec]

Shubh Samachar for PAF.

@Dazzler @Hyperion @Oscar

or is it?

 

[Arya Desa]

Cancel it and buy F-35s