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India's Demand for Russia to Transfer Tech on PAK FA: Practical or Preposterous?

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Sources from the Indian Defense Ministry have told The Times of India that Delhi would participate in the joint development of a new PAK FA-derived fifth gen fighter in cooperation with Russia only if the Russian side included full-scale technology transfer as part of the deal. Russian experts are divided over the implications of this ultimatum.
Only last month, Vladimir Drozhzhov, deputy director of Russia's Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, the agency charged with regulating military-technical cooperation with other countries, told Sputnik that Russia and India had agreed on a draft contract for the joint development of a new fifth-generation aircraft, the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) derived from Russia's Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) stealth multirole fighter.

However, on Thursday, the Times of India reported, citing Defense Ministry sources, that Delhi is conditioning the signing of such a deal with Russia on a full-scale transfer of technology, including the fighter's source codes. In addition, the Indian side is demanding that the FGFA project should directly aid a separate program, India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project, as well.

"This is mandatory. A high-level committee headed by an Air Marshal from the Indian Air Force, which includes an Indian Institute of Technology-Kanpur professor and former chiefs of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and National Aerospace Laboratories, is examining all these aspects," a source told the newspaper. "The government will take a call after the report is submitted in April," the source added.

The source complained that Sukhoi's previous contract with Hindustan Aeronautics – involving the delivery of 272 Su-30MKI twinjet multirole air superiority fighters, did not provide for technology transfer; Delhi considers this to have been a miscalculation.

The FGFA project is part of the Make in India initiative launched by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in 2014. Under the deal, Russia's Sukhoi Company and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited would develop an advanced derivative of the T-50 (PAK FA) fifth generation fighter. The multi-billion dollar project is set to include 43 improvements over the T-50, in areas including engine thrust, stealth capabilities, advanced sensors and onboard avionics, as well as supercruise (sustained supersonic flight) capability. Last year, the two countries agreed to commit $4 billion each to R&D, prototype development, testing and infrastructure for the 127 fighters which India expects to cost a total of $25 billion.

Russian experts are divided over the implications of Delhi's ultimatum.

Speaking to Radio Sputnik, Col. (ret) Andrei Golovatyuk, military observer and senior member of the Russian Officers Union, explained that the issue of technology transfer in general is an extremely sensitive one.

"By transferring our technology, we are creating the conditions in the recipient country to stop purchasing our military equipment over the next 10-15 years, and to use our technology to develop its own instead," the officer said. "This is about the same thing that happened with China in the past. In the 1950s and 1960s, we gave them a number of military technologies, and subsequently Beijing made a huge step forward in the development of weapons and military equipment."

"Something similar could now happen with India," Golovatyuk said. "Of course, this is a very delicate issue – both from the diplomatic and the military-technical perspective. If these are today's technologies, and we have next generation technologies in the wings, then it may be advisable to consider their transfer." Otherwise, the logic is that perhaps Moscow should hold off making the transfer.

The issue is further complicated, the expert noted, by the fact that military-technical cooperation with India is very important for Russia. "There is a saying: 'nature abhors a vacuum'. If we were to 'leave' India, the vacuum would immediately be occupied by the Americans, the Germans, the British or the Chinese, who are moving forward in leaps and bounds toward developing their own military equipment."

"India," Golovatyuk stressed, "occupies one of the leading positions in the purchase of Russian arms and military equipment, and we cannot lose this market. Therefore, we should weigh everything very carefully when making a decision."

For his part, prominent Russian military observer Viktor Litovkin is convinced that Delhi's ultimatum is just a bargaining tactic. India, he noted, "simply doesn't want to pay for a fifth-generation aircraft, and is coming up with all sorts of excuses. In fact, they are demanding that Russia give them all the technology for the plane, which can then be built in India's own plants. That is, they want ultra-modern equipment and technology for a hill of beans."

Litovkin stressed that Sukhoi need not concern themselves too much with the Indian side's demands, pointing out that Russia's Indian partners have always held to the tactic of bargaining for the lowest-possible price.

"Some time ago, they bought our aircraft carrier [the Baku, now known as the INS Vikramaditya] for the price of scrap metal," the expert recalled. They wanted us to make it into a super battle-ready warship. We explained that an aircraft carrier is an expensive combat system, and that it was impossible to acquire it for a red cent. They made a lot of noise about it, but ultimately ended up paying."

Ultimately, Litovkin too said that troubles or not, cooperation with India brings out the best in Russian designers. "In general, we should be forthcoming, listen to their complaints, but calmly proceed to do our work," the expert noted. "Yes, on the other hand, they can be cranky, but on the other hand, it's good for us: they force us to bustle about, to think about how to fulfill the tasks that they set for us."

"Everything will turn out ok," the observer emphasized. "We will make them a fifth generation plane. They just need to pay."

Finally, Mikhail Alexandrov, a senior expert at the Center for Military-Political Studies at the Moscow State Institute of International Relations, pointed out that full-scale technology transfer is outside the practice of any country engaged in the creation of advanced weaponry.

"No state engages in the export of cutting edge weapons systems– especially systems which are still under development. And no one ever sells the technology behind these systems – it simply isn't done," the expert stressed.

Moscow, Alexandrov noted, must clearly and calmly emphasize to its Indian partners "that there are no other countries – the French or the Americans included, willing to share their tech and the intricacies of their aircraft [with India]. I think it's to Delhi's advantage to deal with Russia as things are. We offer them more than other countries, including participation in joint projects, which offers a chance to learn, plus the opportunity to assemble the planes themselves in Indian plants. I do not believe it is worth going beyond that."
https://sputniknews.com/military/201703101051455656-russian-indian-fifth-gen-fighter-dispute/
 
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India will pay for part of the development. In return, Russia will build the plane and sell it back to India with limited TOT. But if India is looking for total TOT, Its a pipe dream that will never happen. India will end up waiting in line for F-35 10-20 years down the road while Pakistani stealth fighters roam the skies if India with impunity.
 
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Don't see that happening, tbh.

Maybe this is a deliberate ply by the Indians. India is becoming very important for the USA in the region. Would the Americans want India to have greater involvement with Russia or less? We are heading back into a Soviet-USA style cold war again and the USA needs India on its side. What you are witnessing is the slow disintegration of the decades old Russia-India alliance. Its taking its last breaths. Modi's govt would consider it a great honour if they were the ones responsible for forging a US-Israeli-Indian alliance. That's what Modi wants to be a part of.

Made in India will remain a dream. Poor Indians will again buy Russian kits and assemble them locally. With China flying J-20 now, India will have to buy what ever Russia offers.


I think India will be drawn into buying a US or Western fighter. India cant hunt with the hounds and run with the hare. They will have to dump their Russian alliance over the next few years.
 
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Maybe this is a deliberate ply by the Indians. India is becoming very important for the USA in the region. Would the Americans want India to have greater involvement with Russia or less? We are heading back into a Soviet-USA style cold war again and the USA needs India on its side. What you are witnessing is the slow disintegration of the decades old Russia-India alliance. Its taking its last breaths. Modi's govt would consider it a great honour if they were the ones responsible for forging a US-Israeli-Indian alliance. That's what Modi wants to be a part of.




I think India will be drawn into buying a US or Western fighter. India cant hunt with the hounds and run with the hare. They will have to dump their Russian alliance over the next few years.

Yeah, looks like they are deliberately making demands on Russia that Russia can't accept. Modi is definitely using this to urge USA to give more prominence to India in Asia, and he is willing to do it at the expense of their decades long relations with Russia. Looks like losing Russian alliance is a price India is willing to pay to get more cozy with USA.
 
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I think India will be drawn into buying a US or Western fighter. India cant hunt with the hounds and run with the hare. They will have to dump their Russian alliance over the next few years.
Which ever way India goes, it is a win win for Pakistan.

Yeah, looks like they are deliberately making demands on Russia that Russia can't accept. Modi is definitely using this to urge USA to give more prominence to India in Asia, and he is willing to do it at the expense of their decades long relations with Russia. Looks like losing Russian alliance is a price India is willing to pay to get more cozy with USA
India need to make a Fighter desperately to counter JF-17 and India needs it done cheaply.
 
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Which ever way India goes, it is a win win for Pakistan.


I have said this before and I will say it again. In fact Gen Gul once said that Modi was a gift to Pakistan. I believe that. In fact Modi is the best foreign minister Pakistan has ever had. You will see this come true. over the next few years. India is trying to create problems in its own relationship with Russia to give it excuses to pull away. Pakistan and China have already started the three-way tango with Russia. Its slowly but surely coming together,
 
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India underestimated the potential of Russia.

I have said this before and I will say it again. In fact Gen Gul once said that Modi was a gift to Pakistan. I believe that. In fact Modi is the best foreign minister Pakistan has ever had. You will see this come true. over the next few years. India is trying to create problems in its own relationship with Russia to give it excuses to pull away. Pakistan and China have already started the three-way tango with Russia. Its slowly but surely coming together,

@Windjammer
 
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Another reason for India's recent pull back from Russia is because of Russia getting close to China and Pakistan, two countries India has a boundary tussle with. India seems to be testing the Russians to their limit in hopes of forcing Russia to take a step that confirms India's paranoia that the whole of Asia, including Russia, is out to get them. And so they can justify their recent pivot towards USA with more ease to themselves and their people.
 
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Ok China never bought SU35


so what happen to SU35 deal....are you getting free again

This thread is about India issueing an ultimatum to get full tech transfer, include source code. And Russia will say no. India will leave with no other choice but wait in line patiently for f-35 while Pakistani stealth jets roam above Indian skies. India is becoming greedy and desperate with Russian arm suppliers and it will end up with nothing, nada.
 
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Nobody is going to release their trade secrets to their own customers! If they do, then why would their customers buy from them ever again?

India realised too late that France was never going to give ToT on the Rafale, so they were forced to just buy 36 of them off-the-shelf with zero ToT.

If France won't give ToT for a 4.5 generation jet, how do you think Russia will give ToT for a 5th generation jet?
 
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Nobody is going to release their trade secrets to their own customers, then why should their customers buy from them ever again?

India realised too late that France was never going to give ToT on the Rafale, so they were forced to just buy 36 of them off-the-shelf with zero ToT.
so there is no TOT for Rafale? I thought they were going to be built in india?
 
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