India's Demand for Russia to Transfer Tech on PAK FA: Practical or Preposterous?

[Saif-ud-Din Qutuz]

India want to be builders of 5th Generation Aircrafts, it will take at least 50 Years for India to be at that Stage
Pipe Dream of India


The Saying goes like this Friendship of USA is Deadly and Enemity of USA will make you remain Alive, Ask this from Saddam and Qaddaffi

Saddam and Qaddafi both didn't develop nuclear capability. Their fate was sealed a long time ago. They thought they had word from US so all is good. They don't need to strengthen their defense and offense capabilities. Saddam tried it, at least, because he was pretty much ditched by US during Iran - Iraq war and he came to the conviction that nuclear capability is inevitable. He tried it but US bombed their reactors. Pakistan also knew what US brought on the table during 1971 war. Some stupid leaders wanted to continue as is since we wanted to avenge Russia which we did. Now, a lot has changed when we talk about geopolitics. We don't want US. They want us, else when Russia and China intervene, US and NATO will have many bodybags dispatched from Kabul. We recently gave them a threat, if they don't mend their ways, they'll regret.

LOL! Now now don't be a sensitive sally.
Why don't you use that excellent education with your third grade reading level and just tell me what the fair market value is?
Give me the number!

The one who couldn't read the article and grasp all it had to say AKA bottomline, is saying that my readability level matches a third grader. Dude, you need help, how is your mopping job going on in US? Earning well?

A beggar demanding things...Only in India.

Its very simple. India purchased huge military equipment from Russia but at a junk price. Though, the numbers were big so Russia continued even though it always said you got to pay more to justify the price of our equipment. Now, same happened here, India wanted upgrades in PAK-FA which costed money, when Russia told them about the cost, they said, fine, we'll pay but we need ToT. Uncle Scrooge will doom India sooner or later.

 

[Peshwa]

The one who couldn't read the article and grasp all it had to say AKA bottomline, is saying that my readability level matches a third grader. Dude, you need help, how is your mopping job going on in US? Earning well?


.

Well Like I said Sally, why don't you quote the number ie. "free market value" from the article since its written in bold. And while you're at it, do explain how one comes up with the free market value for a retired aircraft carrier with no buyers. I'm listening.
We poor, uneducated lot obviously cannot compete with your third grade reading level or comprehension skills!
Maybe ill bring in my 5 year old niece to communicate with you, so you titans can battle it out as equals. LOL!

 

[Saif-ud-Din Qutuz]

Well Like I said Sally, why don't you quote the number ie. "free market value" from the article since its written in bold. And while you're at it, do explain how one comes up with the free market value for a retired aircraft carrier with no buyers. I'm listening.
We poor, uneducated lot obviously cannot compete with your third grade reading level or comprehension skills!
Maybe ill bring in my 5 year old niece to communicate with you, so you titans can battle it out as equals. LOL!

Open your eyes while writing a post. Its not free market value, its fair market value you noob. You're not worth debating. Go play with your niece. You're better suited for that than carrying out debates here. How is mopping job going on? Trump has changed your wages? Earning well??

 

[Modzi]

Finally the CPEC word, it's like panacea or something for every thing in world.



Euro fighter tot, from where Pandora?

India is not asking tot for PAKFA rather FGFA where india is ready to invest and Co develop, what's a wrong if TOT is asked?

from ladakh ...

there is nothing wrong to ask for a tank when in reality you don't even know hoe your tricycle works ... money cant by ability to absorb technology

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Well Like I said Sally, why don't you quote the number ie. "free market value" from the article since its written in bold.

Free market value is an interesting concept. When it comes to the issue in the OP, of 5th generation fighter technologies, I would think it's not actually a question of market value.

Look at how tightly America has held on to their 5th generation fighter technology, they won't even EXPORT their F-22's to Israel, their closest ally. Let alone allowing them to have the technology behind it.

Now yes, America is notorious for not allowing transfer of technology. But what about Russia and China? Neither has allowed any transfer of 5th generation technology either.

If India pulls this off, I would consider it as nothing less than a miracle. Russia is not a poor country, in fact they are relatively rich compared to the world average. Their greatest competitive advantage is their military technology, which is very advanced. Is it really an option for them to give it up?

 

[Peshwa]

Free market value is an interesting concept. When it comes to the issue in the OP, of 5th generation fighter technologies, I would think it's not actually a question of market value.

Look at how tightly America has held on to their 5th generation fighter technology, they won't even EXPORT their F-22's to Israel, their closest ally. Let alone allowing them to have the technology behind it.

Now yes, America is notorious for not allowing transfer of technology. But what about Russia and China? Neither has allowed any transfer of 5th generation technology either.

If India pulls this off, I would consider it as nothing less than a miracle. Russia is not a poor country, in fact they are relatively rich compared to the world average. Their greatest competitive advantage is their military technology, which is very advanced. Is it really an option for them to give it up?

I mostly agree with you. When it comes to niche top of the line technology that has no other substitute, it automatically becomes a sellers market. It's what price you set that drives the market force. And yes, in this case we are also speaking of TOT, which adds a whole new dimension to the idea.

Nevertheless, Russia wasn't the first here, in fact, given their previous track record in defence aviation, they're actually lagging, Now that china has actually entered the J20 before them.
Secondly, for a buyer, other options do exist if it's simply buying off the shelf (not taking into account time sensitivity or geo political value adds). That's where the Russians have lost their leverage I think.
In India's case, it is obviously driving a hard bargain and using all tools at its disposal to gain the most (which is what any paying customer would do including China).
So yes, I do think it will be a miracle if india pulls this off, but stranger things have happened. The game isn't simply a buyer seller equation and the considerations are about much beyond that, spanning geo politics and alignments. Also do note that this isn't the ceiling for this generation of aircrafts. By bringing in a partner, russia is deleveraging internal risk and ensuring that future funding for upgrades is also taken care of. Then there is the matter of exports which can also be increased through lowering of costs, sharing resources and infrastructure! Lastly india is not a one trick pony, as of now it buys a lot of hardware and this could cement a defense relationship for other equipment as well.
Let's see what comes off it! Russians aren't stupid and Indians are great businessmen. It's who blinks first in this negotiation will "gain more" to the neutral observer. In my opinion both perceived gains are equal.

Open your eyes while writing a post. Its not free market value, its fair market value you noob. You're not worth debating. Go play with your niece. You're better suited for that than carrying out debates here. How is mopping job going on? Trump has changed your wages? Earning well??

Aye aye aye!
Sorry for the pink shalwar. It's no use debating with a corpse.
Nevertheless if and when you do come back, do answer how "fair market value" is calculated for a product that has no buyers and is retired.
Also, do answer why the Russians agreed to the initial quote in the first place if it wasn't "fair market value" according to them.

 

[xyxmt]

Dewaney ke khwab
why would some give away golden goose

 

[Dungeness]

I don't think India is ready to fully absorb T-50 tech even if Russia is willing to share.

In 1960's India and China received ToT of Mig-21 from Soviet around the same time, China benefited from the ToT and came up with F-7P, F-7M, FTC-2000 etc, India had nothing on its own. In 1990's, India and China received Su-27/Su-30 ToT around the same time, China now has J-11B, J-11D, J-15, J-16 with its own engines and avionics systems, India still has nothing to show for.

What would make ToT of T-50 any different?

 

[faithfulguy]

I don't think India is ready to fully absorb T-50 tech even if Russia is willing to share.

In 1960's India and China received ToT of Mig-21 from Soviet around the same time, China benefited from the ToT and came up with F-7P, F-7M, FTC-2000 etc, India had nothing on its own. In 1990's, India and China received Su-27/Su-30 ToT around the same time, China now has J-11B, J-11D, J-15, J-16 with its own engines and avionics systems, India still has nothing to show for.

What would make ToT of T-50 any different?

This is when India talk about it never copy other's technology as it's a good partner. But the reality is that it has no ability to absorb the tech. Even if Russia choose to teach India everything, It would like teaching calculus to someone who has not mastered the multiplication table.

 

[Dungeness]

This is when India talk about it never copy other's technology as it's a good partner. But the reality is that it has no ability to absorb the tech. Even if Russia choose to teach India everything, It would like teaching calculus to someone who has not mastered the multiplication table.

Unfortunately, It might just be the case. The industrial base and the diligence make the world of difference.

Many Indian members enjoy mocking China's effort, but by the end of day, China mastered the tech and India is still on the "demanding" side of table. There was an article written by a German MTU engineer who happened to work with both Chinese and Indian engineers on their respective tank project (Arjun MK1 and Type-96), and the difference between the two he observed was shocking.

 

[faithfulguy]

Unfortunately, It might just be the case. The industrial base and the diligence make the world of difference.

Many Indian members enjoy mocking China's effort, but by the end of day, China mastered the tech and India is still on the "demanding" side of table. There was an article written by a German MTU engineer who happened to work with both Chinese and Indian engineers on their respective tank project (Arjun MK1 and Type-96), and the difference between the two he observed was shocking.

And this explain why Arjun is a total failure. Even Indians now agree.

 

[razgriz19]

Russians would definitely agree to it, they might stall it at first but will come around. As soon as the development is finished for Pak-Fa, they will be moving on to 6th gen technology. They will always try to maintain an upper hand in order to continue to sell weapons to India and others.

 

[Zen0]

The Russians know we have access to other markets , they will fold sooner or later.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

The Russians know we have access to other markets , they will fold sooner or later.

There are no other markets that will sell 5th generation technology.

There are only 3 countries who have successfully tested 5th generation prototypes, the USA, China and Russia.

China obviously won't sell this to India. The USA is notoriously protective of their 5th generation technology, they won't even export F-22's to Israel, let alone any of the technology inside.

That leaves only Russia. India has no other choice.

 

[Zen0]

There are no other markets that will sell 5th generation technology.

There are only 3 countries who have successfully tested 5th generation prototypes, the USA, China and Russia.

China obviously won't sell this to India. The USA is notoriously protective of their 5th generation technology, they won't even export F-22's to Israel, let alone any of the technology inside.

That leaves only Russia. India has no other choice.

Again we have other markets , that's our bargin point. Our defense contracts are worth over 80,000cr ,We have historically rellied on Russian arms , most of our imports are Russian tech . If we move away to other markets Like we did by the Rafael deal , it will hurt the Russian market whole lot more . That's the reson why FGFA was put on a fast track in 2016. But none the less negotiations will go on for years , maybe after we buy few s400's they will offer the deal.

That aside , don't compare Chinese 5th gen to the Russian or American counterpart, the j20 has been mocked internationally , you literally still buy Russian 5th gen to reverse engineer it , sputnik has gone on record to state your "Xerox" plants still needs work in progess .