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India's Cold Start Is Too Hot

This is absolutely wrong, do you always believe what some factions of media feed you? Pak Military has more support in public, something our government will never have and this is for a valid reason, go ask Swat people they will tell you what blessing Pak Armed forces for Pakistan.

An odd choice of words!

I already said that I don't necessarily believe that part. My preference would be to believe that such a thing didn't occur.

The part regarding the rumors and allegation still stands.

Regarding the comparison between GOP and PA, it is odd why you have to make them antagonistic bodies. The PA should be working for the GOP and be an extension of it, not competing with it for public support!
 
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There are 3 things which would deter Pakistan.

1. Having extra-ordinarily high battlefield superiority which assures Pakistani GHQ that they would lose & fast.
2. Capability and demonstration of punitive strikes in case of them sponsoring terrorism again. This includes SF, etc.
3. Having great trade linkages with Pakistan. Its almost assured that greater trade with Pakistan would lead to their greater dependency on us and increase their trade deficit with India. Therefore if dependency is high, they lose if Indian economy falls. As it happens, the political elite in Pakistan are also the business elite, and their businesses would suffer with the Indian economy hurting. It also increases the threat of an economic sanction against Pakistan.

India is pursuing all three.
In another 10 years time, India & Indian economy would allow Armed Forces to be on a different plateau compared to Pakistan. The government is already on a modernization and expansion spree of both conventional and special forces. Take a wide eyed view, capabilities are being built up steadily.

India is also pushing really hard for increased trade with Pakistan. With the announcement that Pakistan will grant MFN status soon, this endeavour should bear fruit as well.

couldn't agree more :tup:
 
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Thanks! But sorry, there is no flaw. Am not assuming that there is not going to be any reciprocal action. Sorry, but infact we are counting on a reciprocal action. The policy is based on multiple small attacking formations involved in high maneuver warfare in multiple sectors with stress on firepower rather than numbers.

I agree it appears this is what the plan is, but India is not even close to obtaining that fire power that is required to break through and overwhelm the PA defenders. Your assumption has a major flaw because it takes into account the modernization that the IA is going through, but fails to factor in the modernization PA has taken upon to counter the IA

Yes. Aim is to evict the incumbent PA forces and hold the small chunks of land. A penetration depth of 50-80 kms (which in any war will be a penetration depth achieved in case of a breach before the opposing forces regroup and reinforce for a counterattack) is what we aim for. Not more. This prevents any nutter for employing nukes too.

Okay so for arguments sake, lets say the IBG's break through and capture 60 km of Pakistani territory. Now they are sitting there static, there is nothing that is stopping the PA from regrouping. Unless the IBG's break through and continue driving down to Islamabad keeping the attack momentum, there is nothing that will stop the PA from regrouping. Your failing to see the flaw in this doctrine, unless the IBG's keep the attack momentum, there is nothing that is stopping the PA from regrouping and launching a counter attack.

And the reference to the long lines of communication, I did say that was addressed by forward staging of stores and ammunition. So the observation is rendered redundant here. And we have capability for long supply lines. Every one has them.

Excellent; move them forward, i will personally send a 'Thank You' note to the Indian Army. The PAF can simply launch its stand off weapons at these supply depots or the PA can shell them with either rockets or artillery, i cant believe the IA would implement a policy such as this. Sorry to say India does not has the capability to establish long secure supply lines inside the enemy territory, it simply does not has the infrastructure in place to do that. Take it with a pinch of salt when i say this, Indian Army is good very good for the likes of a 3rd World Nation, but is no way near capable of fighting warfare deep inside enemy territory like NATO or Former USSR.

Outflanking will be possible, but that is where the tier II troops will come into play. Also aim is not to beat your mech formations to the border, aim is to launch the offensives from the area the IA units are present, and hit on axis of own choosing. You can mass your troops all along, no problem, the axis of advances will be multiple. Again its redundant.

Putting in Tier II troops is contrary to what the CDS suggests, but if IA does plan to bring in its Holding Corps in to the battlefield, this changes the whole scenario. As soon as you put your Holding Corps on alert, it will take atleast 24-48 hours for them to prepare and get ready for the war. This activity will not go unnoticed by PA and they will put their forces on full alert. The element of surprise is gone and the PA defenders would be ready and waiting for the attack.

If you look at the axis of advances, there is only Sindh where the Indians can fight a mobile battlefield. Punjab is full of canals, the PA defenders and the natural soil will serve as a barrier to Indian advancement thus the battles are going to be much more static. Sindh-Rajashtan is where the real action is going to take place, and trust me the PA has enough armoured/mechanized/infantry assets in Sindh to ensure to beat any multiple attacks. Thus, for India to launch a full mechanized war, the most tempting option is to launch an attack from the desert.

On a lighter note, I have a severe doubt on your RADAR capability :cheers: Well jokes apart, the issue of your SF increment is noted. But they are not into our calculation. When I quoted our SF being beefed up, it was with the aim to emphasize highly mobile teams working in tandem. No airdrop deep into your territory is envisaged. Even India has separate SF units of navy (MARCOS) and airforce (GARUDS). So a sizeable amount is held here and very difficult to see one on one face off of the SF units.

True, but the use of SF will be essential in my opinion.

Arty is somewhere I agree that you have better positioning in terms of SP. India has very few M-46 Catapault versions in inventory (150 or so). But then, adequate resources in terms of firepower and ability to employ them in terms of ammunition (number of guided munitions) does allow us a slight edge. Overall the artillery is sufficient for now.

It is sufficient but not sufficient enough to cater to the doctrine that the IA is envisioning. I fail to understand how does India has the advantage in employing its artillery. The Indians would have to move up their tubed artillery with their limited SP artillery, and setting up the tubed artillery takes time. While on the other hand PA which has enough 203MM and 155MM artillery already set up, as soon as the Indians cross the border they will start blasting towards advancing Indian Armour Formations and trust me on this one, they will be deadly accurate as this has been proved in several exercises and the operations against the TTP in FATA. The American, Chinese and Turkish artillery in our possession is very accurate and they use excellent guidance systems. So no you dont have a slight edge in the artillery department and neither do you have the capability to neutralize it in the opening phases of the war. You had the Smerch, but that option has been cancelled out.

Am glad you think that ways. Hope its a commonly shared view.

I am just looking at the facts on the ground, conducting a few meagre exercises here and there does not change things. I am yet to see any real reorganizations in IA Divisions or Brigade level.

Evidence for what? If PA is in a position to sustain itself in face of India, why base your nuclear doctrine in first strike basis?

For a long static war, if India decides to fight a long static war, Pakistan will loose. So our first strike nuclear doctrine is based to ensure that India does not fights a long static war with us. Indians should have thought about it twice before they decided to explode a nuke.

The mere fact that PA can never in conventional terms, match up to Indian army, be it in short conflict or a long one, is a fact that only the common Pakistani citizen is unable to appreciate. The PA does appreciate what can happen.

Than you have failed to explain to me how does PA fail to match the IA in a shooting conventional war in a short conflict. You have gone round and round in circles, but have failed to provide me any logical reasoning. I have put forward my arguments, you are more than welcome to do so too.

The Cold Start is not based on numbers, its based on mobility and immense firepower. We have the resourcess to provide that. We have the numbers in terms of platforms and weapons. Short of nukes!

No arguments there, but India at current does not has the mobility or immense firepower to tame PA in the battlefield. If that was possible, trust me IA Armour Formations would have crossed over to duel out with PA Armour Formations.
 
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According to UPI Asia Online 25 reported that Pakistan bought from China A-100 long-range rockets. Pakistani military industry sources, Pakistan last year signed the China Precision Machinery Import and Export Corporation to purchase. This is the first sale to other countries, A-100 long-range rockets.

Seems its talking about purchasing. You had specifically mentioned production at home. So the relevant links to your production of the same at home please.

sorry jungi ... shall only keep it to PA getting A100s assembled in China rather than complete ToT if I were you.
 
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According to UPI Asia Online 25 reported that Pakistan bought from China A-100 long-range rockets. Pakistani military industry sources, Pakistan last year signed the China Precision Machinery Import and Export Corporation to purchase. This is the first sale to other countries, A-100 long-range rockets.

Seems its talking about purchasing. You had specifically mentioned production at home. So the relevant links to your production of the same at home please.

sorry jungi ... shall only keep it to PA getting A100s assembled in China rather than complete ToT if I were you.

Here :
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...ofG9BA&usg=AFQjCNGwVu-Hz0GV-fxCzUo9aNCDhp8kxA

http://www.military-today.com/artillery/ar1a.htm

Should have googled urself.
 
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What the US did in Osama Killing, interms of military action, did that not follow the Cold Start Protocols?

just a question....
 
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but India at current does not has the mobility or immense firepower to tame PA in the battlefield.

In terms of COLD START Strategy India does not have the Mobility!!!! For this strategy to work it requires not only the mobility in enemy terratories, but internally also... India is Working on this, I must say, but Much slower interms of worlds standards.....
 
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So after this detailed discussion we come to the conclusion that while the initial IA push and subsequent capture of 50 - 80kms of Pakistan territory is quite possible now, sustaining the tempo will be difficult. But for the 1st 3 - 5 days IA, from the point of initiation of CS, will have the upper hand. Isn't this exactly what the doctrine envisages?

Immediately after CS commences, the Indian diplomatic machinery will swing into action in an attempt to prevent any escalation in hostilities after the initial IA advance. CS will be initiated only in response to a terrorist strike that one assumes emanates from Pakistan. So in essence IA and thereby CS is highly dependent on GOI diplomacy and a terrorist strike means that Pakistan is on the backfoot. CS is essentially to keep Pakistan's retaliatory capability exactly that - cold.

Pakistan will need to do the opposite ie thwart the Indian diplomatic initiatives. Probably Pakistan will be quite unsuccessful in this given that with each passing day the credibility of Pakistani establishment is reducing. The higher ups in the Pakistani establishment realise this. This is why Nasr has been introduced with the thought that war will not even start and no subsequent isolation will occur.

Pakistan's only trump card is the nuclear threat. If the Indian action can be halted after the initial thrust then why at all the Nasr?

Nuclear exchange is stupidity from both the initiator and the retaliator, especially since large swathes of humanity resides in South Asia. Nuclear war has the potential to set in motion an unpredictable chain of events. Such action is not for the faint-hearted and those high on testosterone.

However at the end of the day it is not clear if GOI will at all call for strikes in response to a terrorist attack. Why war may not occur will then only be a matter of speculation. Some will say that the economy could not be derailed while others will refer to CS being unimplementable. But then India did make sorties into Pakistani airspace after 26/11.
 
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So after this detailed discussion we come to the conclusion that while the initial IA push and subsequent capture of 50 - 80kms of Pakistan territory is quite possible now, sustaining the tempo will be difficult. But for the 1st 3 - 5 days IA, from the point of initiation of CS, will have the upper hand. Isn't this exactly what the doctrine envisages?

Infact, US did more then the Kilometers you have mentioned...

There are lots of possibilties in Pakistanie Cold Start Scenario, but India itself needs to upgrade more then what is protraited, not only for Pakistan but surrounding countries as well....

I have actually taken time to read the whole COLD START doctrine, and by reading so found that US made a good use of it then India has, even though it was orginally an Indian idea.....

After the Parliament attacks, India's military focus was the Cold Start, but It lacked the logistics of the program... India today needs to upgrade it Military program without Political interactions, so It can grow on it's own...........

My Two Cent......
 
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Cold start in its original form is history----what pakistan has gone through in the last month---first sign of millitary strike from india will be met with a nuc retaliatory strike from pakistan----.

Last month has shown some vulnerabilities in pak defence---even if india cannot make any actual headway---the thing is that the myth has been broken----once that mental block is overcome, the enemy can find extra courage and try to take advantage of the situation.

And as pakistan has been at the receiving end---now it does not know its full potential after the incursions and air base strikes---it also now fears the indian strike---which would make it to react faster and make the nuc strike sooner rather than later---lest all advantage is lost.

So---it is a no win situation---bottom line----cold start ( under you people guidelines ) would be a violent start with an extremely violent end----no winners coming out of it. There will be a big loser and a bigger loser.

There is no other face of cold strike other than what I have written about. It is on a similiar level as what the U S did to the USSR---it is what india is doing to pakistan.
 
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There is no other face of cold strike other than what I have written about. It is on a similiar level as what the U S did to the USSR---it is what india is doing to pakistan.

Very interesting analogy Mr. Khan, because of what you are saying, if it is true, then the winner is the higher economic value of the country. Keep in Mind, that US had only one advantage in the fight of cold war, and that was the Economic value compare to the USSR.....

Are you suggesting the same thing here?
 
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Cold start in its original form is history----what pakistan has gone through in the last month---first sign of millitary strike from india will be met with a nuc retaliatory strike from pakistan----.
Not really. Unless a major part of Pakistan is captured or if they are left defenseless they will use tac nukes. It has been mentioned time and again that use of any kind of nuc on Indian forces will lead to full scale retaliatory strikes.
Pakistani GHQ is acting on 2 points of logic :

1.Either the threat of tac nukes will not lead to a military response due to a terrorist strike and

2.Once TNW's are used, India will not want to escalate the issue and will absorb losses as the nuke will be fired from and on Pakistani land, so India will not be provocated enough to retaliate with its own arsenal.

Both these points dont stand water because:
1. The government will be compelled to react to any terrorist action otherwise they will lose credibility. So they will have to act, big or small is debatable. Most likely precision missile strikes

2.As there have been statements from officials that any attack on Indian Armed forces anywhere will be construed as an attack on the mainland and will be responded appropriately.

So the GHQ before authorizing strikes will have this to consider.
 
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OTOH,

India is investing in capability to make its forces exponentially more mobile than they are now.
1. The sizes of the tenders for new APC/IFV's
2. The number of choppers of all kinds that are being planned.
3. The numbers and quality of tanks.
3. The number of utility vehicles
4. The number and type of transport planes

All in all, by 2020-25, the mobility of Indian Armed Forces as a whole would be a magnitude greater than what it is now. You know the requirements of IBG's. Massive mobility, firepower and fast reinforcement is essential to any credibility of the doctrine. You see those capabilities being built up very steadily.

All this also leads to the credence to the fact that the use of TNW's are being factored in. Dispersal and mobility of forces is what can overcome use of TNW.
 
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Very interesting analogy Mr. Khan, because of what you are saying, if it is true, then the winner is the higher economic value of the country. Keep in Mind, that US had only one advantage in the fight of cold war, and that was the Economic value compare to the USSR.....

Are you suggesting the same thing here?


Absolutely----the picture is getting clearer by the day----it is a numbers game---unless pakistan pulls a rabbit out of the hat----which means---take out the 5 wanted members of the let---.

The only way I see pakistan coming out ahead---is first to enforce a state of emergency in the nation---and fight this war on terror as a war needs to be fought---. Pakistan has reached a stage in their life that they have to survive their ' today ' first---rather than look for their future--per say---. They need to keep the future in mind----but how the game has been spun back at them---it is the survival for now that counts the most.

Pakistan does not understand that Obama has played a master stroke of deception on pakistan regarding the OBL issue---but incidently---it didnot work too good for Obama----the glory has worn off and Obamas number are backdown to pre-strike.

But what happened after the strike---the attack on the naval base---was never comprehended by the americans either---they never understood the consequences of slamming pakistani adminstration down----. The americans never expected such negativity regarding this issue---if there was a white president in america---it would have never happened that way----the black are a different people----some extremely deceptive---absolutely and totally self centered and self righteous.

In order for pakistan to counter that----pakistanis need to look through a different view finder---understand what they have done and then take corrective actions.

Pakistan is like palestine---their brothers----from other mother----pakistanis have no clue that at every stage of conflict---they lose a bit----and bit bu bit---they will lose as much as palestine has lost from 1967 till now---and all these pakistanis here will still be arguing in a future date that they are right in how they are doing things in pakistan.
 
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