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India's Cold Start Is Too Hot

I have one question:

Suppose, in a highly hypothetical scenario, an Indian IBG crosses the border into Pakistan and captures territory, and then Pakistan retaliates with a tactical nuke attack on the IBG, within Pakistani territory. Can India justify using a retaliatory nuke attack on Pakistan? It is improbable that this can be justified, since Pakistan has used tactical nuke on it's own territory.

Its not about the justification.....In times of war justification takes the farthest back seat. The issue is that the IA has devised the concept of CS particularly so as to avoid a strategic nuclear confrontation i.e. Move in fast, hold max land before the nuclear threshold is reached and before the international community intervenes then let the international pressure stop the on going hostilities and then use the land captured as a major chip in the negotiations post hostilities. That is the reason which actually makes the NASR come into play. Firstly it sends a message to the IA: You think you can avoid nukes flying by using the CS doctrine? Well think again..... Secondly and more importantly: You send your IBGs we will destroy them using tac nukes. Now that your CS has been dealt with lets see what you do next....Your thinking about using strategic nukes??? But isnt that exactly why you came up with the concept of CS so as not to reach a stage where strategic nukes are used? So what will you do now?

ps: One confusion that I think I might be able to help with here is that one cant load up a Shaheen with a low yield nuke and use it on armored columns. That missile does not work that way. For that you need a smaller missile capable of carrying tac nukes (lower yield and smaller sized warheads specifically designed for this kind of usage). And as far as the question of targeting moving columns is concerned well dont the guided MLRS projectiles do exactly that?

Nuke this and nuke that.

All discussions go down the drain when you guys start picturing in the unthinkable.

For the discussion to remain logical, it has to be kept conventional. If its about nukes, I nuke you and you nuke me and its ALL OVER.

India has no intentions of dismembering Pakistan or for that matter any other state.

Nothing will happen if there is no 26/11 and like attacks. If it does, India will not hesitate to take military action. Now I am interested in discussing Pakistan's conventional response, but if you guys start threatening TNW's from the very beginning then there is nothing really to talk.

You ppl need to understand your country's doctrines in more detail.

Nukes (incl TNW's) are a last resort, they have to figure when there is no other option.
Well thats exactly the point. Thats nuclear deterrence working quite well even on paper.

Just one point for the thing in bold.

There is/was one more thread running titled "Stupidity goes nuclear" in which a Pakistani viewpoint in Nasr is presented.

It made one important point --> Why would India not raise the bar of the war if its IBG's are hit by a TNW ?

Usage of TNW will depend on your perception of what India is capable of doing.

If you think India will keep quiet even if its troops get hit by TNW the Nasr is your perfect weapon.

If you think India will retaliate in a disproportionate manner if its troops get hit by a TNW, then using Nasr will lead to to a path of no return.

Your choice!

You are still missing the point. It is the IA which wants to avoid a nuclear confrontation through its CS doctrine. CS IS so as to avoid exactly that! Before CS it was: IA attacks if all goes to hell PA will nuke India. Then came the CS: IA will punish PA while staying clear of the nuclear threshold. Now with NASR: IA cannot avoid the nuclear threshold even with CS. And what you have said is exactly the message the PA would want to send i.e. You envisage CS to avoid a nuclear war.....but now with NASR you again cannot not avoid it. Hence if the IA does want a nuclear war then it will not want tac nukes flying from the PA side and for that to happen it will be vary of using its IBGs.

TNW's eroded the credibility of pak strategic deterrence.Something went very wrong with the yields at chagai hills and the plutonium based nukes supposedly uranium based nukes.Thrs warrants sesious grey matter

LOL that fell way too short of a sensible/knowledgeable post..... Apparently you dont know that tac nukes come after strategic nukes i.e. in the evolution of nuclear weapons strategic nukes come before tac nukes on the timeline.
 
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Indian Defence Studies & Analysis

Making Sense of ‘Nasr’

Ali Ahmed

April 24, 2011

News reports have it that Pakistan has successfully conducted a test of a surface-to-surface short range Hatf IX (Nasr), described as a multi-tube ballistic missile with a ‘shoot and scoot’ capability. The statement of the Director-General of the Strategic Plans Division, Khalid Ahmed Kidwai, that the flight consolidated Pakistan's strategic deterrence capability at all levels of the threat spectrum indicates that Nasr is nuclear capable.

To Pakistani analyst, Dr. Shireen Mazari, ‘It (Nasr) will act as a deterrent against use of mechanised conventional land forces. This was essential in the wake of India's adventurist war-fighting doctrine formulations, which envisaged the use of rapid deployment of armed brigades and divisions in surprise and rapid attacks.’ She believes, ‘Indian dreams of a limited war against Pakistan through its Cold Start strategy have been laid to rest. This will allow for a reassertion of a stable nuclear deterrence in the region.’ This article analyses if Dr. Mazari is right.

Pakistan is the weaker side in the India-Pakistan dyad. Recognising this structural factor, its military, which also runs the state, has been constantly innovative in addressing what it perceives as an asymmetry. It has resorted to external balancing in renting out its strategic location for geopolitical use by external powers. It has forged a close relationship with China to balance India and help China in its strategic purposes in relation to India. For over quarter of a century, it has tried to gain ‘depth’, forward of its defences, by rendering rear area security problematic for Indian forces through its proxy war. It has attempted internal balancing by reportedly training five lakh irregulars for making India’s stabilisation operations untenable, even at the risk and cost of the backlash it is currently enduring. This explains the utilisation of the development of Nasr for purposes beyond merely doctrinal.

Further, Pakistan employs information operations interestingly and to some effect. For instance, it claims to have equalised India’s number of nuclear tests at Chagai and insists that these give a variegated capability. It periodically claims success of missile tests from the point of view of deterrence signalling. The Nasr test, for instance, coincided with the launch of corps level Indian military manoeuvres, Exercise Vijayi Bhav, in the Rajasthan deserts. Pakistan’s nuclear related rhetoric is also designed to increase the salience of the nuclear overhang and addresses multiple audiences, in particular the US. Its prosecution of operations against the Taliban in FATA and Khyber Pakhtoonwa province has been marked by much sound and fury, particularly with respect to the displacement of people. Its deployment of nationalist strategic analysts to inform, rationalise, legitimise and influence has been proactive. All these resulted in a former US president once famously mistaking South Asia to be the most ‘dangerous’ place in the world!

This creditable record of information warfare requires to appropriately condition analyses of developments like that of the Nasr. Nasr’s flight test had both Lt. Gen. Khalid Kidwai and Dr. Shireen Mazari giving their opinions. This clearly indicates that even if Nasr is a forbidding reality by itself, the same needs underlining and highlighting for effect. Multiple aims are thus achieved. The purported aim is deterrence, which explains the timing to coincide with the Indian exercise. It could also be to get the US focus back on the eastern front in terms of making the admittedly delicate balance seem untenably unstable, in light of US keenness to get the Pakistani Army take on the Taliban in North Waziristan.

That said, taking Nasr seriously at face-value helps arrive at its actual significance. The development of Nasr indicates that Pakistan views India’s Cold Start doctrine with concern. The Nasr is meant to deter India’s launch of Cold Start. Since Nasr is reportedly nuclear capable, short range and light weight, it could imply the use of tactical nuclear weapons were such a conflict to occur. Fearing a lower nuclear threshold, implied by availability of tactical nuclear weapons, India may be deterred from embarking on Cold Start. This would enable Pakistan to recreate the space it once had for continuing its prosecution of proxy war - a space that has been constricted by India’s formulation of a Cold Start doctrine, even though all the components of the doctrine such as weapons acquisitions, relocation of formations and change to a manoeuvre war culture are not yet entirely in place.

It has been assessed that Pakistani reliance on its nuclear cover would increase with India’s increasing felicity with Limited War doctrine. Pakistan is reportedly ahead of India in numbers of nuclear warheads and in a more variegated missile delivery capability. This, to one analyst, spells a strategy of ‘asymmetric escalation’. In the Pakistani logic, nuclear deterrence is also to operate at the conventional level. Nasr, to Dr. Mazari, makes for deterrence stability since it helps strengthen this dimension of nuclear stability. Dr. Mazari is right on deterrence stability, but gets her reason wrong - the reference to Cold Start being anachronistic.

India’s Army Chief has indicated that no such doctrine exists. It appears that the Indian military is looking to respond to subconventional provocations at the same level. This may be in the form of surgical strikes, Special Forces operations, border skirmishes, activation of the Line of Control, select punitive operations, etc. The Indian intent will be to convey a message of resolve as well as to punish and cause selective attrition. And the aim would be to address Pakistani cost-benefit calculations in such a manner as to coerce Pakistan into limiting its provocation below India’s ‘level of tolerance’. Such a course of action by India has internal political utility in letting off steam in terms of ‘something’ being done. It is also decidedly less expensive, preserving India’s grand strategy of economic rise from being unnecessarily buffeted.

The Indian move away from a default resort to Limited War places the onus of escalation on Pakistan. India’s conventional capability is to ensure that Pakistani reaction to such subconventional retribution is non-escalatory. Should Pakistan try to respond with conventional action, that would provoke a ‘Cold Start’ by India. Pakistan would thus be placed a second time round in a position of decision to escalate, this time by using Nasr. The prospects of Pakistan’s self-deterrence under such circumstances are higher. In the event, Pakistan will be forced to react defensively to India’s ‘contingency’ operations.

In case push comes to shove and Pakistan does resort to the use of Nasr, then this would more likely be on its own territory, rather than provocatively on Indian launch pads close to the border. India’s promised retaliation may not then necessarily be along the lines of its nuclear doctrine of ‘massive’ punitive retaliation (strategy having the privilege of departing from doctrine). The net result would be further nuclear impact(s) on Pakistani territory.

In other words, stability reigns not due to India being deterred, but Pakistan being self-deterred. Accountability for initiating both the conflict and a possible nuclear conflict would rest with the Pakistani military. The aftermath would surely find it decisively pushed off its commanding perch in Pakistan by an angered people.

In rethinking Cold Start as a default option and working towards proactive ‘contingency’ options, India is a step ahead in doctrinal shadow boxing. It appears to be playing by Schelling’s concept of Limited War as a ‘bargaining’ process:

‘It is in wars that we have come to call ‘limited wars’ that the bargaining appears most vividly and is conducted most consciously. The critical targets in such a war are the mind of the enemy…the threat of violence in reserve is more important than the commitment of force in the field… And, like any bargaining situation, a restrained war involves some degree of collaboration between adversaries.’
(Schelling, Arms and Influence (1966).


The challenge in South Asia is to ensure that the contest remains at the doctrinal level. Keeping it so entails getting into a doctrinal dialogue with Pakistan so that the ‘collaboration’, mentioned by Schelling, can be from a mutually intelligible scrip

Making Sense of
 
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Lt Col Ali Ahmed is the son of Lt Gen M K Zaki, erstwhile Indian 15 Corps Commander.

An incisive article that too would answer many a query raised about the Cold Start and its effect.
 
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Going by this logic, it is clear that the cold start doctrine guarantees India nothing as far as keeping the threshold below nuclear is concerned and on our side we should be absolutely clear that even a tactical nuke used on our own territory will be considered as a nuclear attack and will be responded with full force.
So the final conclusion out of all of this will be that while Pakistan cannot predict India response if and when we use hatif 9, similarly India cannot predict Pakistans response if and when it will use nukes in response to the cod.

The point is that Indian nuclear doctrine was drafted before the cold start discussions came into play.

So atleast for now, even cold start (if its used) will be guarded ny the current nuclear doctrine.

Experts have called for a review of the current Indian war doctrine to take care of changes in military dynamics that have taken place over the last few years.
 
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No one answered my previous question, anyway....

Cold start seems to be an efficient doctrine based on the assumption of delayed enemy military mobilization and in the mean time gain territorial control and begin bargaining. Judging from last year Azm-e-Nau, Pak military has put emphasis on rapid deployment of forces within hours, not days. A strike corp is also raised IIRC for this purpose. It will be not an easy route for Indian army by any means. They will attempt to stretch Pak resources by opening quite a few fronts which seem logical but they must not forget the fact that we have been readying our military for such an action for a long time. In short, underestimating each other will prove to be a fatal mistake for either side, utilizing a weak link will decide the fate of war.
 
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Cold Start, in essence, relies on a Pakistan that is slow to react while India's offensive is lightning fast and unstoppable. Another assumption is to prevent breaching the nuclear threshold.
First assumption is not true while the other has a hundred different variables.

Another point for consideration with regards to Nasr:
Nuclear-capable does not necessarily mean definitely-nuclear-warhead...

... Or maybe it does.

Keep guessing and devising strategies like Cold Start.

Best of Luck.
 
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There is enough proof. What do you expect, a smoking gun with PA military officials being videographed ordering the carnage?

Than please, we beg of you. Provide the evidence, i hope its not one of those evidence which India claims to have but refuses to share with the rest of the world :D. India should take all that "Enough Proof" that you claim India has to the UN, and get them to declare the ISI and PA rogue elements.

There is a long history of Pakistan supporting terrorists of the LET and JEM and so on. They are out in the open, the donation boxes in the market place, open recruitment of terrorists, the JEM guy openly running terrorist centers after being released, Ajmal Kasab and the pathetic attempt to hide his identity, the communication between the terrorists and their handlers back in .

Speculations

ISI involvement with Dawood Ibrahim and 1993 Mumbai bombings is fairly clear to everyone. Your totala Miandad's relationship to that terrorist is no secret either.

Speculations once more. Miandad's son married Dawood's daughter, is there a crime against that. Real mature of you, the girl is innocent and just because her father is a criminal does not means that she is a criminal. You should be ashamed off yourself for making ridiculous assumptions like these

So India is expected to spoonfeed you all evidence, even for what happened within Pakistan where Indian investigators have no access?

India is making the accusations, thus India should be on top for providing the evidence. Pakistani investigators have conducted their own investigations and made arrests, lets see how things progress.

Anyways enough of derailment of the topic, lets get back to the Cold Start Doctrine.
 
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Current Indian doctrine takes care of a situation whereby Indian troops are nuked even on a foreign territory will be considered as a nuclear attack on India.

Right or wrong !!??

Indeed, so if India chooses the right to nuke Pakistan with a massive strike than it is risking complete destruction of both India and Pakistan. As soon as both nations are in a State of War and a tactical nuke is used, orders will be given out to start assembling our strategic nukes. As soon as Indian High Command gives out the order to start assembling their nukes, it is impossible to hide because there is going to be lots of activities in their bases. Pakistan will be alert and as soon as your nukes appear on our radar screens, expect Pakistan to launch whatever it has on your side.
 
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Cold War, in essence, relies on a Pakistan that is slow to react while India's offensive is lightning fast and unstoppable.

Best of Luck.

Cold Start does not envisage a slow start by the PA.

PA has in every war had the initiative since they were first off the starting block, as their Cantonments were close to the border.

India, on the other hand, had troops that were to attack, well behind wherein it took very long to mobilise and by that time Pakistan was well on its way inside India.

Cold Start only aims to cut the mobilising time and also to ensure the advantage of PA having the initiative is negated.
 
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Personally i think tactical nukes are great but i think our doctrine should be more strong.If it comes to nuclear war we should launch all the stuff at once because we are also gonna get nuked in return.We should nuke the places where human damage is maximum so as to inflict maximum damage.We should also take out areas where major food supplies are and as well as Millitary Bases.So we should have at least 200~250 nukes to completely devastate India.
 
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Indeed, so if India chooses the right to nuke Pakistan with a massive strike than it is risking complete destruction of both India and Pakistan. As soon as both nations are in a State of War and a tactical nuke is used, orders will be given out to start assembling our strategic nukes. As soon as Indian High Command gives out the order to start assembling their nukes, it is impossible to hide because there is going to be lots of activities in their bases. Pakistan will be alert and as soon as your nukes appear on our radar screens, expect Pakistan to launch whatever it has on your side.

Are you kidding me ?

India already has a no first use policy.

In an event of war launching even a single nuke would be the equivalent of suicide for Pakistan. If that ever happens, I hope India does not retaliate with nuclear weapons. Nobody has the right to slaughter millions of innocents like that.
If India is attacked by nuclear weapons, the entire world will try to hold India back from retaliating and Pakistan will be isolated even by it's bestest higher than mountains friend.

You're simply being too optimistic if you feel Pakistan actually has the ability to destroy the whole of India before being wiped off the map. Besides, even if we assume Pakistan does have the ability, what is the use of destroying the territory that you want to "free" ?

You make it sound like your entire nation has transformed into a taliban suicide bomber and takes great pride in the fact, even blackmailing others by threatening suicide.
 
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Personally i think tactical nukes are great but i think our doctrine should be more strong.If it comes to nuclear war we should launch all the stuff at once because we are also gonna get nuked in return.We should nuke the places where human damage is maximum so as to inflict maximum damage.We should also take out areas where major food supplies are and as well as Millitary Bases.So we should have at least 200~250 nukes to completely devastate India.

Being so desperate doesnt hold good either for a country or for an individual.
 
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Than please, we beg of you. Provide the evidence, i hope its not one of those evidence which India claims to have but refuses to share with the rest of the world :D. India should take all that "Enough Proof" that you claim India has to the UN, and get them to declare the ISI and PA rogue elements.

I know you guys are mighty pleased that you supposedly got away with decades of terror.

What you have really paid and are paying and will pay in the future was not worth it. Believe me.

Speculations

Really? Which part?

Speculations once more. Miandad's son married Dawood's daughter, is there a crime against that. Real mature of you, the girl is innocent and just because her father is a criminal does not means that she is a criminal. You should be ashamed off yourself for making ridiculous assumptions like these

I am not blaming the daughter! If you didn't understand what was meant, there is no point.

India is making the accusations, thus India should be on top for providing the evidence. Pakistani investigators have conducted their own investigations and made arrests, lets see how things progress.

India had provided enough evidence for Pakistan to take it further. If there was neeyat in the first place.

All we see is a lot of huff and puff, no intention to punish the guilty and stop the terror. The LET terrorists are still strategic assets.

Anyways enough of derailment of the topic, lets get back to the Cold Start Doctrine.

We can do that. You guys brought in this issue.
 
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Being so desperate doesnt hold good either for a country or for an individual.

Such people are probably mentally unstable. They don't realize the implications of what they are saying.

They also don't realize the options we have and what all would get destroyed, it may not be just Pakistan.
 
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In an event of war launching even a single nuke would be the equivalent of suicide for Pakistan. If that ever happens, I hope India does not retaliate with nuclear weapons. Nobody has the right to slaughter millions of innocents like that.
If India is attacked by nuclear weapons, the entire world will try to hold India back from retaliating and Pakistan will be isolated even by it's bestest higher than mountains friend.

Pakistan will be using a low yield nuke against an invader whose invading our land in our own territory. We wont be using the tactical nuke in the Indian territory, it will be against invading Armoured Formations whom are in our territory to capture our land. There is no way India can expect to gain world sympathy as an invader, Pakistan will be the victim because it is defending its territory. Anyways be assured, if the Indian IBG's manage to thrust forward and break through our defences and are on their way to capture a strategic location, we will use a tactical nuke against your IBG's. If you are too worried about a nuclear war, don't cross the border.

You're simply being too optimistic if you feel Pakistan actually has the ability to destroy the whole of India before being wiped off the map. Besides, even if we assume Pakistan does have the ability, what is the use of destroying the territory that you want to "free" ?

Pakistan has nukes in the triple digit numbers, do you honestly think thats not enough to destroy India? It appears to me that your patriotism is taking the best of your judgement. Pakistan wont be using a high yield strategic nuke to target the Indian IBG's, it will use a low yield tactical nuke. Know the difference between the two and you will finally get a sense of what i am talking about.

You make it sound like your entire nation has transformed into a taliban suicide bomber and takes great pride in the fact, even blackmailing others by threatening suicide.

If you have a problem with that, DONT INVADE OUR LAND. You cant be the invader and expect us to play by your rules, if you try to invade our land than we will do everything in our power to crush your invading army.

Cold Start does not envisage a slow start by the PA.

PA has in every war had the initiative since they were first off the starting block, as their Cantonments were close to the border.

India, on the other hand, had troops that were to attack, well behind wherein it took very long to mobilise and by that time Pakistan was well on its way inside India.

Cold Start only aims to cut the mobilising time and also to ensure the advantage of PA having the initiative is negated.

But Sir i still fail to understand the objectives of Cold Start Doctrine, i have taken a lot of interest in this doctrine and have thoroughly studied and analyzed it. It appears to me that the objectives of the Indian Army are extremely flawed, they hope to capture small chunks of territory in rapid time (72-96 hours) and hold that territory for bargaining. But what makes the Indian war planners think that Pakistan will come to the negotiating table, what if Pakistan Army chooses to engage and evict the Indian IBG's. Its going to be really hard for the Indian IBG's to fight through attrition and flanking battles.

Never the less, its a very bold strategy and something that is very interesting. One can only expect innovative armies like the US, USSR or Wehrmacht to come up with a doctrine like this. Definitely thinking away from fighting attrition battles on the border to fighting battles deep inside the enemy's territory.
 
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