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India's arguments on Kashmir why they don't want to hold a plebiscite

yes, agree on war thing if pak can afford .... but asking or expecting india to hold plebiscite on its own land for a weaker nation like pak, doesn't make any logical and political sense..

Well yeah plebiscite is never going to happen. Pakistan ofc cannot defeat India and liberate Kashmir on its own, and needs to hope for a two-front war -- Pak-China vs India.

JohnyD:

Reg conversion based on look...well, anyone after growing the beard can make a fit look alike muslim...and any pak muslim by shaving his beard can look like Indian but no need to convert to hindusim, he can still keep his faith..😃

Kashmiri and Dogri Hindus will not look out of place in Pakistan or Afghanistan, and maybe not even in Iran. It's better if they united with Pakistan instead of remaining divided based on religion. It's much more practical to convert a few million to Islam than converting 240 million to Hinduism.
 
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If there was a plebiscite, a great majority of Muslims in Kashmir would go against us.” They had “become frightened of the communal elements in Jammu and in India.” He had “this feeling of our losing grip in Kashmir.”
Highly possible. Considering large Muslim population in Kashmir, this wasn’t an unfounded apprehension. Even more so in the light of recent violence after partition and heightened emotions.

PKaistan was also aware of this and was very keen on Plebiscite and tried to get it done on terms that appeared favourable to it. It’s insistence on laying the terms of Plebiscite before moving further on terms of truce allowed India to also find loopholes and delay the process. The fear of mass exodus was a big concern and I do give it to India to move things in such a way to not let that happen. This consideration may not find many takers on Paksiatn side

Indian insistence on declaring, Paksiatn and aggressor by the UN for using regular troops, put the UN delegation in a quandary and delayed the process.

Both the nations played the cards as per their beliefs and convictions and chartered the path ahead. A path looked at suspicion by the other.

Even a remote possibility of plebiscite faded after 1965 war, Simla agreement, exodus of pandits and then repealing of Article 370 by India.

I don’t see a way ahead, which would allow a peaceful solution to the conflict. It would remain a thorn to both, in the foreseeable future.
 
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Can we stop beating the horse? It's been dead for past many years.
Both countries have way more important things to work and resolve now. Frankly do Pakistanis believe the Kashmir issue is more important than their current political/economic issues?

Kashmir is the jugular vein of Pakistan.

There is no important issue than Kashmir for Pakistan.

Kashmir banega Pakistan.

As per Indian textbooks - Both India and Pakistan needed to withdraw forces, whereas India was suppose to keep minimal boots on the ground to maintain law and order, Pakistan didn't oblige and now after 75+ years much water has flown under the bridge so ain't happenings so now everybody can take a hike

Pakistan took a hike on to Point 5353 during Kargil war of 1999 and has been sitting pretty there since then.

Now cry.


:yahoo:
 
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Chinese won't let the King intervene.

India can give up the spot on the trilateral table to Khalistan council.

More progressive approach is solving the problem bilaterally between China and Pakistan.

Pakistan needs to sit down with china and ask it to return the part of Kashmir sold in the past for any meaningful talks.
Once Pak China figure that give and take then maybe India can sit down with Pakistan.

Khalistan will only come when Lahore and Nankana sahib are on the table.
 
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@M. Sarmad

On Simla Agreement:
Ijaz Hussain addresses this in his book Kashmir Dispute: An International Law Perspective, and relevant paragraphs are reproduced below:



To begin with, the protagonists of the foregoing viewpoint contend that "the question of the accession of the State of Jammu and Kashmir to India or Pakistan will be decided… through a free and impartial plebiscite" under the UN auspices as stipulated in the Security Council resolutions has been replaced by the provision of the Simla Agreement of 1972 which lays down that the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means mutually agreed upon between them." This has been termed as "bilateral approach" to the resolution of the Kashmir dispute as against the international or multilateral approach of the said UN Security Council resolutions on Kashmir. In other words, in this view the Simla Agreement, which is the latest treaty on Kashmir, excludes third party involvement including that of the United Nations and the resolutions adopted by any of its organs in the matter unless the two countries mutually decide otherwise. In short, in this view, the Kashmir question is no more than a purely bilateral matter to be resolved through peaceful means by India and Pakistan to the exclusion of all other approaches.

On the basis of the foregoing contention India seems to enjoy a good prima facie case in the matter. However, a close scrutiny of the Agreement demonstrates that the Indian contention is quite untenable. To begin with, paragraph 1 (i) of the Simla Agreement specifically provides "[t}hat the principles and purposes of the Charter of the United Nations shall govern the relations between the two countries." Article 2 of the Charter which spells out the principles of the Organization in its paragraph 2 provides that “[a}” Members… shall fulfil in good faith the obligations assumed by them in accordance with the present Charter." More precisely, article 103 of the Charter says in unambiguous terms: "In the event of a conflict between the obligations of the members of the United Nations under the present Charter and their obligations under any other international agreement, their obligations under the present Charter shall prevail." Article 103 by laying down the principle lex prior derogat posteriori (the later treaty shall be invalid if incompatible with the earlier treaty) goes against the general international law principle of ex posterior derogate priori (the later treaty invalidates the earlier treaty). In other words, article 103 attempts to regulate the question of compatibility between the Charter and other international agreements. As is clear from the language of this article, between the two categories of norms (namely those obligations undertaken by the members by virtue of the present Charter and those undertaken by any other international agreement) the former category prevails when the two are in conflict with each other. This is so because of the "constitutional" or "grundnorm" character of the Charter which its founding fathers intended as borne out by the travaux préparatoires of the San Francisco conference.
As to legal consequences of the conflict between the two norms, the international agreement in question becomes inapplicable but is not vitiated with invalidity. In other words, in case of conflict with obligations under the Charter, the treaty in question is neither abrogated nor rendered invalid. Only the obligations under it which are contrary to those under the Charter become inoperative… Given the fact that in international law an obligation to negotiate does not mean an obligation to reach an agreement, in all probability, India is not likely to agree any time with Pakistan to the grant of the right of self-determination to the people of Kashmir in terms of the pertinent UN resolutions. This is testified by the history of negotiations on Kashmir between the two countries since the advent of the Simla Agreement whereby India has been and remains extremely reluctant to enter into negotiations on the issue, let alone agreeing to the exercise of the right of self-determination by the people of Kashmir. Given this ground reality and even without taking it into account, what is the status of the Simla Agreement in international law, in view of the fact that the Agreement virtually denies the Kashmiri people a right which they enjoy under the UN Charter and which has a status of jus cogens?....

Taking up the question of compatibility of the Simla Agreement with the provisions of the UN Charter, one notices that article 2 of the Agreement by virtually denying this right to Kashmiris comes into conflict, for example, with article I, paragraph 2 of the Charter which spells out the purposes of the Organization in these terms: "To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples." It is also at variance with articles 55 and 56 of the Charter. By virtue of the former article, the UN members commit themselves to take a number of steps in order to create conditions of stability and well-being which are essential for peaceful and friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples. And by virtue of the latter article, they pledge to take joint and separate action for the purposes set forth in article 55.

Similarly, as seen above, article 103 of the United Nations Charter unambiguously states that the obligations of the members have precedence over their obligations under any other international agreement. The Simla Agreement in its article I states "[t]hat the principles and purposes of the Charter of the United Nations shall govern the relations between the two countries." In view of the fact that article 2 of the Simla Agreement by effectively denying the right of self-determination to Kashmiris is violative of the United Nations Charter as well as its own article 1, it is therefore null and void.

Lastly, the right of self-determination which the people of Kashmir obtained by virtue of the pertinent United Nations resolutions has not been affected through the conclusion of the Simla Agreement for the reason that they were not a party to it and India and Pakistan are not entitled in international law to speak on their behalf. This argument has been accepted by the International Commission of Jurists in these words:

However, the peoples of Jammu and Kashmir were not parties to the Agreement and neither India nor Pakistan, both of which had conflicts of interest with the peoples of Jammu and Kashmir can be regarded as having authority to bind them. The members of the ICJ mission do not see, therefore, how the Simla Agreement can be regarded as having deprived the peoples of Jammu and Kashmir of any rights of self-determination to which they were entitled at the time of the Agreement.


Source: Hussain, Ijaz. (1998). Kashmir Dispute: An International Law Perspective. P.186, 187, 191, 195, 196.

India if they claim instrument of accession to be valid reason for Kashmir ownership should then immediately retreat from Junagadh and hand it over it Pakistan. Why the hypocrisy?

I don’t see a way ahead, which would allow a peaceful solution to the conflict. It would remain a thorn to both, in the foreseeable future.
Ofc, I think there is no peaceful resolution to the issue. This will lead to focus on non-peaceful attempts.
 
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Highly possible. Considering large Muslim population in Kashmir, this wasn’t an unfounded apprehension.

PKaistan was also aware of this and was very keen on Plebiscite and tried to get it done on terms that appeared favourable to it. It’s insistence on laying the terms of Plebiscite before moving further on terms of truce allowed India to also find loopholes and delay the process. The fear of mass exodus was a big concern and I do give it to India to move things in such a way to not let that happen. This consideration may not find many takers on Paksiatn side

Indian insistence on declaring, Paksiatn and aggressor by the UN for using regular troops, put the UN delegation in a quandary and delayed the process.

Both the nations played the cards as per their beliefs and convictions and chartered the path ahead. A path looked at suspicion by the other.

Even a remote possibility of plebiscite faded after 1965 war, Simla agreement, exodus of pandits and then repealing of Article 370 by India.

I don’t see a way ahead, which would allow a peaceful solution to the conflict. It would remain a thorn to both, in the foreseeable future.

Let me remind you, my friend, that it was India, not Pakistan, that took the Kashmir dispute to the United Nations. And then again, it was India, not Pakistan, that later backtracked and refused to implement the resolutions passed by the arbitrator of its own choosing (as they were not aligned with India's preferences). Despite these facts, Indians still try to place the blame on Pakistan. The undeniable truth remains that you lack the moral and legal standing to assert claims on the Kashmir issue.
 
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Well yeah plebiscite is never going to happen. Pakistan ofc cannot defeat India and liberate Kashmir on its own, and needs to hope for a two-front war -- Pak-China vs India.
Ya, two front war can be dangerous for India and cant handle it on its own with its current capabilities...but India might be in a position to thwart such possibility by using its strategic relationship with other powers....i m sure if China is involved our time tested friend Russia will not stand by us in war zone against china, it will remain neutral...our only hope would be US, QUAD, Israel, France and if not then last option "mutual assured destruction". .All 3 nation would pay heavy price..
 
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India if they claim instrument of accession to be valid reason for Kashmir ownership should then immediately retreat from Junagadh and hand it over it Pakistan. Why the hypocrisy?
No hypocrisy there. Lord Mountbatten had travelled to Paksiatn and tried to convince Jinnah about either choosing Muslim majority as the criteria or the instrument of accession. This was in the light of Junagarh and Hyderabad too. Jinnah was very confident about Kashmir and denied that suggestion.

Rest is history.
Ofc, I think there is no peaceful resolution to the issue. This will lead to focus on non-peaceful attempts.
True. That train left the station long long back.

I don’t think that India would make any attempt on your portion of Kashmir. Paksiatn has tried it many times and also seen the results.

The best is to keep talking and posturing for votes and selling it to domestic audience, while moving on with the life.
 
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No hypocrisy there. Lord Mountbatten had travelled to Paksiatn and tried to convince Jinnah about either choosing Muslim majority as the criteria or the instrument of accession. This was in the light of Junagarh and Hyderabad too. Jinnah was very confident about Kashmir and denied that suggestion.


I think you are referring to the Jinnah-Mountbatten talks that were held in Nov 1947 (5 days AFTER the Indian occupation of Kashmir)

Jinnah was a man of principles, Jinnah's response to Mountbatten's "offer" was that he could not accept a formula if it was so drafted as to include Hyderabad since he pointed out that Hyderabad did not wish to accede to either Dominion and he could not be a party to coercing them to accession.
 
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No hypocrisy there. Lord Mountbatten had travelled to Paksiatn and tried to convince Jinnah about either choosing Muslim majority as the criteria or the instrument of accession. This was in the light of Junagarh and Hyderabad too. Jinnah was very confident about Kashmir and denied that suggestion.
What of India? which criteria did India pick, huh?
I don’t think that India would make any attempt on your portion of Kashmir. Paksiatn has tried it many times and also seem the results.
Well Pakistan can be stubborn, hehe.

But on a serious note, things were never as bad as they are now on Kashmir between Pakistan and India, even at times of war. I wonder if it is in India's best interest to take things in this direction in the long term.
 
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Let me remind you, my friend, that it was India, not Pakistan, that took the Kashmir dispute to the United Nations.
I agree.
implement the resolutions passed by the arbitrator of its own choosing
To my knowledge, India didn’t accept the route of arbitration since it viewed the entire issue as a political one and not a legal one. Moreover, Nehru thought that one person can’t decide the fate of millions of people.
Despite these facts, Indians still try to place the blame on Pakistan.
We do because Paksiatn did play a role in not accepting certain aspects of the UN resolution as such. It only accepted the modified route suggested by the UN commision during negotiations, which India refused to accept. Who was right or wrong, depends on which side you view it from.

Had Paksiatn accepted the terms of truce immediately without demanding clarity on plebiscite, it would have put a lot of onus and responsibility of failure on India. Time and opportunity was lost due to the delays.

It gave a chance to India to escalate it’s own misgivings which finally resulted in failure of UN led efforts.
lack the moral and legal standing to assert claims on the Kashmir issue.
“Moral” and “legal” are two very slippery words in realpolitik. If we start judging every action of a nation though these glasses, I have a doubt that any nation would score any marks. The discussion will go back to first post on the thread and we would be back to square one.

What of India? which criteria did India pick, huh?
India wasn’t asked? Paksiatn was. And it chose a path which proved to be an unsuccessful one. I say with hindsight which is always 20/20.

It could have been India in their place. But we are not.

Jinnah was a man of principles, Jinnah's response to Mountbatten's "offer"
Could be. I need to read up on it.
Junagarh was more prominent than Hyderabad. Paksiatn did try hard for it. Josef talks about it many times in his book.
 
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But on a serious note, things were never as bad as they are now on Kashmir between Pakistan and India, even at times of war. I wonder if it is in India's best interest to take things in this direction in the long term.
Neighbours should stay with harmony and peace.

We analyse events, viewing them as they are today. That can change with time.

I hope we will look back after a decade or two and maybe say, it was right move, that brought lasting peace. Or regret it.
 
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We do because Paksiatn did play a role in not accepting certain aspects of the UN resolution as such. It only accepted the modified route suggested by the UN commision during negotiations, which India refused to accept. Who was right or wrong, depends on which side you view it from.

Well, you are wrong here

That modified route proposed by the UNCIP (i.e. 13 Aug 48 and 5 Jan 49 Resolutions) was ACCEPTED by India

Had India actually rejected those resolutions, your argument would have been valid.

Furthermore, the determination of "who was right and who wasn't" had to be made by the arbitrator chosen by India itself. Both the UNCIP and the UN-appointed mediator placed the responsibility for halting the process on India.
 
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But on a serious note, things were never as bad as they are now on Kashmir between Pakistan and India, even at times of war. I wonder if it is in India's best interest to take things in this direction in the long term.
Sir, with due respect to your knowledge about the subject matter.....from India's perspective, things were never so bad on Kashmir between Ind and Pak...terrorists attacks have come down, better control over kashmir region, deployment of ppl from all over India in kashmiri administration, illiminating and supressing sepaterists, weaker pakistan bust in its internal chaos, america on Indian side & so on....all these are in favor of India.
 
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