India's Air Force Modernization Worries Rival Pakistan

[UFO77]

Tejas small poor voyage, there is no threat, there is no discussion of anything of value.

 

[gslv mk3]

He is retd Admiral and i find him quite credible source but problem with you indians is that when you given proof you dont answer and close your eyes...
In JV you can take help from any one but calling some thing your own but still lots of component including engine radar and design not your own its quite borrowing....

I have never read about mig help plz send me material...

Quite credible ? This Bullshit ..?

FBW is NOT from Lockheed Martin.They were involved in inflight simulation tests of FBW software on their F 16 VISTA

CFC wing panel NOT from Alenia,only software for designing them were brought.

Radar sourced NOT from Erricson Ferranti,

Wind tunnel testing was done at NAL.Even testing it abroad do not make it foreign.

About radar..see this.

The coherent pulse-Doppler Multi Mode Radar is designed to operate equally effectively in the Air to Air and Air to Surface domains. Jointly developed as an Indian – Israeli venture, it features multi-target Air to Air Track, Hi Resolution Synthetic Aperture Mapping and specialized Air to Sea modes. The radar facilitates all weather employment of a variety of Air to Air and Air to Surface Weaponry, and is the primary targeting sensor on the Tejas.
he coherent pulse-Doppler Multi Mode Radar is designed to operate equally effectively in the Air to Air and Air to Surface domains. Jointly developed as an Indian – Israeli venture, it features multi-target Air to Air Track, Hi Resolution Synthetic Aperture Mapping and specialized Air to Sea modes. The radar facilitates all weather employment of a variety of Air to Air and Air to Surface Weaponry, and is the primary targeting sensor on the Tejas.

LCA Tejas - Technology: Multi - Mode Radar

Yes engine is a foreign design,as with JF 17,J 10,Gripen and the like.Whats the problem ?

 

[Fahad Khan 2]

Quite credible ? This Bullshit ..?

FBW is NOT from Lockheed Martin.They were involved in inflight simulation tests of FBW software on their F 16 VISTA

CFC wing panel NOT from Alenia,only software for designing them were brought.

Radar sourced NOT from Erricson Ferranti,

Wind tunnel testing was done at NAL.Even testing it abroad do not make it foreign.

About radar..see this.

Yes engine is a foreign design,as with JF 17,J 10,Gripen and the like.Whats the problem ?

Half thing you have written are bullshit... I will belive Admiral...

Give me more info about mig help in jf-17

 

[gslv mk3]

Half thing you have written are bullshit... I will belive Admiral...

Kindly prove it genius.I have even quoted the official Tejas website there.

Give me more info about mig help in jf-17

Mikoyan is providing design support and has seconded a team of engineers to CAC. The aircraft resembles an earlier Mikoyan design given the internal designation MiG-33. The design, developed in the early 1980s, was intended as a light dogfight aircraft.

Mikoyan joins Chengdu on fighter - 6/21/1995 - Flight Global

I'am not arguing that JF 17 is Russian-I am pointing out the assistance that a more experienced firm can provide.

 

[Fahad Khan 2]

Tejas small poor voyage, there is no threat, there is no discussion of anything of value.

Tejas laughing stock for the world three decades and still not competed they even run to China for help... LOL

Kindly prove it genius.I have even quoted the official Tejas website there.

Tejas website is full of bullshit sarkari stuff.. Kindly prove its 40% of tejas is not foreign...

 

[gslv mk3]

Tejas website is full of bullshit sarkari stuff.. Kindly prove its 40% of tejas is not foreign...

No one makes a fully Indigenous product when vendors who can supply components are available,not even US

Its tell about ovet all support of mig to CAC for designs of many aircraft including JF-17...

What ?

In 1983 IAF realized the need of an indigenous combat aircraft for two primary purposes. The principal and most obvious goal was the development of a replacement aircraft for India's ageing MiG-21fighters.To better accomplish these goals, the government chose to take a different management approach, and in 1984 established the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) to manage the LCA programme.
The IAF's Air Staff Requirement for the LCA were not finalised until October 1985.Project definition commenced in October 1987 and was completed in September 1988. Dassault Aviation of France was hired as a consultant to review the PD and provide advice based on its extensive aviation expertise. The PD phase is a critical early element in the aircraft design and development process because from this flow key elements of the detailed design, manufacturing approach, and maintenance requirements

The Design

Early proposals & wind tunnel models...

And finally...

The LCA design was finalised in 1990 as a small tail-less delta winged machine with relaxed static stability (RSS) to enhance manoeuvrability performance.

Various windtunnel models were tested on NALs wind tunnels-

Air intake

Aeroelastic testing

CFD Analysis by NAL.( I guess you know what CFD is ) NAL is a very capable organisation,which have even done testing & designing of Space Launchers & Reusable Launch Vehicles

So,an aircraft design developed by Indians ,using Indian infrastructure like windtunnels,paralell computing,CFD anaysis capabilities is not Indigenous??------------( point 1 )

The Airframe-Composites

The Tejas employs CFC materials for up to 45% of its airframe, including in the fuselage (doors and skins), wings (skin, spars and ribs), elevons, tailfin, rudder, air brakes and landing gear doors. Composites are used to make an aircraft both lighter and stronger at the same time compared to an all-metal design, and the LCA's percentage employment of CFCs is one of the highest among contemporary aircraft of its class. Apart from making the plane much lighter, there are also fewer joints or rivets, which increases the aircraft's reliability and lowers its susceptibility to structural fatigue cracks.

The tailfin for the LCA is a monolithic honeycomb piece, an approach which reduced its manufacturing cost by 80% compared to the customary "subtractive" or "deductive" method, whereby the shaft is carved out of a block of titanium alloy by a computerised numerically controlled machine. No other manufacturer is known to have made fins out of a single piece.

The use of composites in the LCA resulted in a 40% reduction in the total number of parts compared to using a metallic frame. Furthermore, the number of fasteners has been reduced by half in the composite structure from the 10,000 that would have been required in a metallic frame design. The composite design also helped to avoid about 2,000 holes being drilled into the airframe. Overall, the aircraft's weight is lowered by 21%.

This will take considerable expertise & infrastructure to make components like Carbon Fibre Wing,single piece tail fin etc.All of these are done Indigenously.Now that doesn't make it Indigenous?-------------------( point 2 )
The Flight control system

In 1992 the LCA National Control Law (CLAW) team was set up by the National Aeronautics Laboratory to develop India's own version.The CLAW team's scientists and mathematicians were successful in developing their control laws, but could not test them since India did not possess advanced real-time ground simulators at that time.

As it was being developed, progressive elements of the coding were checked out on the "Minibird" and "Ironbird" test rigs at the ADE and HAL, respectively. A second series of inflight simulation tests of the integrated flight control software were conducted on the F-16 VISTA(Variable In-flight Stability Test Aircraft) simulator in the U.S. in July 1996, with 33 test flights being carried out. However, Lockheed Martin's involvement was terminated in 1998 as part of an embargo enacted by the U.S. in response to India's second nuclear tests in May of that year.
The NAL's CLAW team eventually managed to successfully complete integration of the flight control laws indigenously, with the FCS software performing flawlessly for over 50 hours of pilot testing on TD-1, resulting in the aircraft being cleared for flight in early 2001. The LCA's maiden flight was made by TD-1 from National Flight Test Centre (NFTC), near Bangalore, on 4 January 2001, and its first successful supersonic flight followed on 1 August 2003. TD-2 made its first flight on 6 June 2002. The automatic flight control system (AFCS) of the Tejas has been highly praised by all of its test pilots, one of whom said that he found it easier to take off with the LCA than in a Mirage 2000



Actuators,Sensors developed indigenously

So the Indigenous development of LCAs quadraplex redundant all axis FBW,sensors,actuators &DFCC doesnt make it indigenous?--------( point 3 )
Multi Mode Radar

HAL's Hyderabad division and the LRDE were selected to jointly lead the MMR program and the radar development effort began in 1997.

The DRDO's Centre for Airborne System (CABS) is responsible for running the test programme for the MMR. Between 1996 and 1997, CABS converted the surviving HAL/HS-748M Airborne Surveillance Post (ASP) testbed into a testbed for the avionics and radar of the LCA.

The coherent pulse-Doppler Multi Mode Radar is designed to operate equally effectively in the Air to Air and Air to Surface domains. Jointly developed as an Indian – Israeli venture, it features multi-target Air to Air Track, Hi Resolution Synthetic Aperture Mapping and specialized Air to Sea modes. The radar facilitates all weather employment of a variety of Air to Air and Air to Surface Weaponry, and is the primary targeting sensor on the Tejas.

So according to you,a Indian radar with an Israeli processor do not make LCA indigenous? -------( point 4 )

 

[Jungibaaz]

JF-17 which most analysts don't class as 4th generation, a plane which can't even carry out a basic manoeuvre such as a vertical climb (due to power/weight ratio of less than 1) beats Rafale? lool

If you don't know what you're talking about, it's best not to say anything. My advice for you.

 

[acetophenol]

Dont forget Mahindra NM 5...NAL design again.

 

[Bang Galore]

Stupid thread. If the Indian air Force's modernisation does not bother Pakistan (and vice versa), who is it supposed to bother? Mexico?

 

[tahirsengine]

Stupid thread. If the Indian air Force's modernisation does not bother Pakistan (and vice versa), who is it supposed to bother? Mexico?

Hahahaha good one.....

 

[SQ8]

Stupid thread. If the Indian air Force's modernisation does not bother Pakistan (and vice versa), who is it supposed to bother? Mexico?

Zombies, you Indians will face the brunt of them coming from the east.. BD, Burma, all of the Siamese nations.. So all the help that is available is needed to fight the Shikshasha.

Like Ill show some pink zombies here very soon.
The usual suspects engaging in self-fellatio.

 

[Haq1]

With due respect, i request to keep discussions professional. We all know what Pakistan really is & soon we will prove this to all, pls. don't waste your energy & be constructive, a long way to go

 

[he-man]

With due respect, i request to keep discussions professional. We all know what Pakistan really is & soon we will prove this to all, pls. don't waste your energy & be constructive, a long way to go

 

[aakash_2410]

If you don't know what you're talking about, it's best not to say anything. My advice for you.

I don't know what the criteria is fr becoming a moderator on this forum, but being a moderator doesn't mean you necessarily know what you're talking about.

As for me not knowing what I'm talking about, out of both of us, I'm surely more qualified to comment on the subject matter. I'm an Aeronautical Engineer from Loughborough University (go and see my intro thread) plus many Pakistani members from PDF are friends with me on Facebook, they can confirm it for me.

@Back to topic,

Power/Weight or Thrust/Weight = Maximum Thrust (With Afterburners on) / Maximum Take-off weight. So, when Thrust/Weight ratio is less than one, it means it has more max. weight than its' max. thrust. At this configuration, when attempting a vertical climb the weight and Lift are in opposite direction, but because of higher weight the plane can't carry out vertical climb.

I'm not saying this plane will be never be able to carry out Vertical Climb, but when its' fully loaded it certainly won't be able to.

Believe me, I wasn't trying to take any pot-shots at anyone, but I was just replying to some troll. The reliability of the data Wikipedia has used, can be up for discussion but I certainly know what I'm talking about.

 

[Jungibaaz]

I don't know what the criteria is fr becoming a moderator on this forum, but being a moderator doesn't mean you necessarily know what you're talking about.

As for me not knowing what I'm talking about, out of both of us, I'm surely more qualified to comment on the subject matter. I'm an Aeronautical Engineer from Loughborough University (go and see my intro thread) plus many Pakistani members from PDF are friends with me on Facebook, they can confirm it for me.

No, certainly not. but if it the case that you do know what you're talking about, you're not doing too fair of a job displaying it.

@Back to topic,

Power/Weight or Thrust/Weight = Maximum Thrust (With Afterburners on) / Maximum Take-off weight. So, when Thrust/Weight ratio is less than one, it means it has more max. weight than its' max. thrust. At this configuration, when attempting a vertical climb the weight and Lift are in opposite direction, but because of higher weight the plane can't carry out vertical climb.

Basics is what you're quoting here. Lift and thrust to counter weight and drag. Sure, fine.
You add the weight, it diminishes such capabilities? Fine To say this aircraft can't perform a vertical climb at all is false.

To go from those basics to that sweeping statement, I'm sorry to say your own knowledge wont back you on that one.

You know that and I know that.

As for the rest of it, for you to even try and argue that the JF-17 cannot be classed as a 4th gen or the equivalent of such an aircraft is false. I personally hate the use of all this 'generation' crap. It categorizes very diverse aircraft and it holds little legitimacy as a term when you dig deeper into details. Also please, if you could explain using whatever you know that you think I don't know that the JF-17 is at all substandard compared to so called '4th gen' (which you implied) and how it's not classed as one at all which was your claim.

I'm not saying this plane will be never be able to carry out Vertical Climb, but when its' fully loaded it certainly won't be able to.

Ahh, there we are. So, may I ask, what was the purpose of such a comment in the first place?

Believe me, I wasn't trying to take any pot-shots at anyone,

Quite the contrary.

You said one thing, and now based upon your own knowledge you dumped that old statement all together.

but I was just replying to some troll.

If you really are someone who has this as an area of expertise, my second advice to you is to not waste your time.

The reliability of the data Wikipedia has used, can be up for discussion but I certainly know what I'm talking about.

Good, then please show it. You know and I know that what you said in that post showed very little of this fact you claim that you do know what you're talking about.