Thank you for the back-handed compliment. Please restrict these to your favourites in future. When I say something, you may be sure that I have very good reasons to say it, and it is not a bit of idle propaganda.
There is no role of the UN in Kashmir, and it is surprising that you bring UN-documented torture stories. That there is unrest among a certain section of Kashmiris is not in question; what is in question is that it is representative of all Kashmiris or even of a majority of Kashmiris, here the reference being to the Kashmiri Muslims of the Valley. If you had any personal experience, or personal knowledge, or any vicarious knowledge of a region in the grip of terror, you would know that a small, violent minority dictates terms to everybody else. Including to a large and passive majority that wishes for good governance, and, as far as political and social desires and goals are concerned, that wishes for a restoration of the autonomy that should have been Kashmir's by constitutional right, for the restoration of the dignity of the individual or group subjected to numerous security checks even on functioning thoroughfares, and for the addressing of the corruption that has hollowed out Kashmiri society.
You seem to be unaware, or to be unwilling to identify these as realities on the ground. That is specifically what I meant, and by sneering at me you change nothing on the ground. At best, it might give you the satisfaction that an urchin gets by pissing in the park and proving that he can do so without harm - unless, of course, he is unlikely enough to have a policeman standing right behind him.
No, you don't need to explain anything. Merely an incessant repetition of fantasies will gain you your point. I accept that by your standards you are being perfectly logical and expressing yourself in irresistible terms.
That is why you don't need to explain anything. The need for thousands of troops has been clearly and explicitly written. Your own knowledgeable observers have acknowledged that numbers quoted are exaggerated. They have also pointed out how many soldiers Pakistan herself has on the borders, and the figures match, as far as soldiery is concerned. In addition, there are some 100,000 counter-insurgency troops and policemen involved; you might like to compare that to Pakistan's deployment in KP or even to the deployment of Rangers and other para-military personnel in Karachi, proportionate to the population of those places.
The ratio will shock you, but I am confident that you do not have the self-confidence, or the faith in your own so-called arguments.
Nothing is needed to be done to contradict the "facts", since those who wish to wallow in a self-righteous soup are enjoying themselves too much to step out of the wallow.
Precisely what I mean by being tied to your own prejudices. If you have not investigated my attitude to reality and facts, especially on matters relating to India and Pakistan, you know nothing and are not equipped to enter a discussion entertaining, as you do, your own little prejudices as canonical truths revealed to you personally.
Nothing so blind as those who refuse to see.
Your reasoning is emotionally tenable, not legally.
No.
I am explaining in the simplest possible terms an insult to one whose skin and whose vocabularies protect him equally from insult.
Oops forgot UN observers are not allowed in to Indian held Kashmir, and HRW and Amnesty International and other bodies of international repute are also wasting time on writing these made up reports of abuses. Since it is clear that my words hold little value, and why should they since I am not aware of "ground realities" I let the following reports document human rights abuses, although I worry that since they are also not written by Indians or not in too favour of the Indian security forces, they may also be dismissed as they are not aware of these mythical ground realities that only a true patriotic Indian can understand:
"In their efforts to crush the insurgency, Indian forces in Kashmir have engaged in massive human rights violations, including extrajudicial executions, rape, torture and deliberate assaults on health care workers."
"From the outset, that crackdown was marked by brutality against civilians, including the shooting of unarmed demonstrators, civilian massacres and summary executions of detainees."
"Summary executions of detainees and indiscriminate attacks on civilians escalated during the operation, and during another which followed, called Operation Shiva. Over the next several months, the security forces also engaged in frequent arson attacks, burning houses, shops and entire neighborhoods."
"The Asia Watch/PHR team which visited Kashmir in October 1992 traveled throughout the Kashmir valley from Srinagar to Handwara and Sopore in the northwest, and Anantnag and Shopian in the southeast. They directly investigated 44 extrajudicial killings, eight cases of torture, and fifteen rapes committed by Indian security forces."
"In the second mission conducted in April and May, 1993, Asia Watch and PHR-Denmark, documented an additional 22 extrajudicial killings and a case of torture and attempted summary execution by the security forces. During both research missions, Asia Watch and PHR interviewed local health professionals, journalists, teachers, human rights activists and lawyers, and reviewed habeas corpus petitions, High Court judgments, and medical documents on hundreds of incidents of abuse by the security forces."
"In the case of the Sopore massacre, the investigation into which the government holds up as an example of "swift and firm action", Border Security Force troops went on a rampage and killed at least 43 persons, some of whom died of gunshot wounds, others of whom were burned alive when the troops set fire to their shops and homes. Independent investigations into the incident by human rights groups and international and Indian journalists corroborated eyewitness accounts that BSF forces deliberately opened fire on civilians and set fire to buildings."
"Even when the authorities have ordered inquiries into incidents of abuse, the investigations are frequently never conducted or the findings not made public. Director General of Police (DGP) B. S. Bedi, when he was first appointed to Srinagar, had promised to make public the findings of all such inquiries. When questioned in a press interview in October 1992 about his failure to do so, he responded, "We have done so deliberately -- it would lower the morale of the forces. Why should we tell everyone? They will talk about it right and left."
"Although an inquiry was ordered into the killing of 25 civilians in Handwara on October 12, 1990, the findings have never been made public. An inquiry ordered into the killings of 33 civilians in Srinagar on June 12, 1991, has never commenced. An investigation was ordered in the case of five women reportedly raped near Anantnag on December 5, 1991, but the magistrate's report has never been submitted."
https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/INDIA937.PDF
"Since the government crackdown against militants in Kashmir began in earnest in January 1990, reports of rape by security personnel have become more frequent. Rape most often occurs during crackdowns, cordon-and-search operations during which men are held for identification in parks or schoolyards while security forces search their homes. In these situations, the security forces frequently engage in collective punishment against the civilian population, most frequently by beating or otherwise assaulting residents, and burning their homes. Rape is used as a means of targetting women whom the security forces accuse of being militant sympathizers; in raping them, the security forces are attempting to punish and humiliate the entire community"
"In many attacks, the selection of victims is seemingly arbitrary and the women, like other civilians assaulted or killed, are targeted simply because they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Since most cases of rape take place during cordon-and-search operations, just living in a certain area can put women at risk of rape."
"Rape by Indian police is common throughout India; the victims are generally poor women and those from vulnerable low-caste and tribal minority groups.9 In some cases, women are taken into custody as suspects in petty crime or on more serious charges; in others, women are detained as hostages for relatives wanted in criminal or political cases; in still others, women are detained simply so that the police can extort a bribe to secure their release. In all of these cases, women in the custody of security forces are at risk of rape. Rape has also been widely reported during counter-insurgency operations elsewhere in India, particularly in Assam and other areas of conflict in northeastern India.10 In both conflict and non-conflict situations, the central element of rape by the security forces is power. Soldiers and police use rape as a weapon: to punish, intimidate, coerce, humiliate and degrade."
"In one well-publicized case, in May 1990 a young bride, Mubina Gani, was detained and raped by BSF soldiers while she was traveling from the wedding to her husband's home. Her aunt was also raped. The security forces had also fired on the party, killing one man and wounding several others. The government claimed that the party had been caught in "cross-fire." After the incident was publicized in the local and international press, Indian authorities ordered the police to conduct an inquiry. Although the inquiry concluded that the women had been raped, the security forces were never prosecuted."
I had to stop posting further from this as it is far too painful for me to read and absolutely thrashes this farcical moral ground Indians try to claim in the Kashmir conflict.
https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/INDIA935.PDF
“The government has long been well aware that widespread killings and disappearances have occurred in Kashmir, but it has looked the other way,” Ganguly said. “The discovery of these unidentified bodies will make it impossible to continue the long cover-up of the facts or to deny justice to the families of victims.”
A similar pattern of abuses and cover-up took place in the neighboring state of Punjab during counterinsurgency operations from 1984 to 1995, Human Rights Watch said. Indian security forces were implicated in thousands of killings and secret cremations to hide the evidence.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2011/08/24/india-investigate-unmarked-graves-jammu-and-kashmir
With keeping the above in mind, the great Indian democracy then proceeds to protect the people who commit these abuses:
"more than 96% of all complaints brought against the army in Jammu & Kashmir have been dismissed as “false and baseless” or “with other ulterior motives of maligning the image of Armed Forces.”
"Amnesty International reports in the early to mid-1990s documented a large number of instances of torture and deaths in custody of security forces."
This organization alone recorded more than 800 cases of torture and deaths in the custody of army and other security forces in the 1990s, and hundreds of other cases of extrajudicial executions and enforced disappearances from 1989 to 2013.
https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/ASA2018742015ENGLISH.PDF
"Violations of human rights and humanitarian law by the regular security forces - the army, the Border Security Force (BSF) and the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) - have also continued. These violations include the deliberate killing of detainees in the custody of the security forces in Kashmir and reprisal killings of civilians. Human rights groups and press accounts have registered reports of such killings every month,
5 but there is no sign that security personnel have been prosecuted in a single case of summary execution."
"Methods of torture include severe beatings, electric shock, crushing the leg muscles with a wooden roller, and burning with heated objects. The Indian government has not made public any investigations into any of the many documented cases of torture, nor has it ever announced that a member of the security forces was prosecuted or punished for torture. Although the government denies that torture is practiced systematically and as a matter of policy in Kashmir, government officials have admitted that torture takes place."
"Security personnel in Kashmir have also been responsible for rape as a counterinsurgency tactic. In response to international attention to the problem, the Indian government has made public a number of prosecutions of members of security forces for rape. However, reports of rape and other sexual assaults in Kashmir persist.
7 In many cases, these incidents are never investigated by judicial and medical authorities competent to determine culpability."
https://www.hrw.org/reports/1996/India2.htm
After looking at the above reports and numerous others that crowd my computer memory, I have come to the conclusion that not only does the Indian state knowingly and purposely engage in terrorist acts with utter disregard for human rights and continues the occurrence of such acts. After reading such reports and documented proof, I am repeatedly told by the Indian friends here that I must accept only what they are saying to be true and the rest of some how borne of my "prejudiced Pakistani mind", how can I in such a environment dismiss everything I have read and studied and accept what these people are saying even though reports after reports confirm the horrors committed but also shows them consistently trying to cover up or outright deny the existence of such incidents.
Tell me how and why I should just accept what you or other Indian tells me when the records and proofs show the opposite? I agree I may be ignorant of "some" facts and "ground realities" but is the world also ignorant of these and only a Indian that tows the official line is on the truth? What a height of moral and intellectual dishonesty, to not only disregard my opinion but also to them claim that you or others who's mind set is similar to you must only be telling the truth and the me and others who disagree with are either wilfully ignorant or outright propagandists.
I have never sneered at anyone, I consider it below me to sneer at someone who is maybe trying to make relevant point, but I find myself disappointed that instead of engaging me with honesty and respect you have chosen to insult me in veiled, obtuse words. After this, you again engage in senseless personal tirades by stating how I am peddling my fantasies borne out of prejudice, well Sir, if I am engaged with tirelessly working to peddle my fantasies, then so are you and the great number of Indians on this forum who post and day and night with utter devotion in demonstrating how benevolent the state of the republic of India is and all is fine in the Kashmir valley.
Then, the argument of numbers and ratios is brought in. Well, dear these are not relevant examples you give. The regions of KPK and Karachi are not demanding independence/autonomy from Pakistan. The KPK region is rocked by an international conflict consisting of religious rabids attempting to hijack the whole of the state under its wrapped ideology. It is not an occupation by which a so called democratic state fires the bullets on an unarmed 12 years' old by resting it's democratic infused rifle on the shoulder of an armed soldier.
While we are at Karachi, it will not be too grand to entertain this argument, the population of the whole of Karachi district is several folds larger than that of Jammu and Kashmir. Even then, the violence in Karachi is of a criminal and political nature, not an armed rebellion against the state of Pakistan. Pray tell me, what use is this comparison?
I have never ever even engaged in the politics of numbers, I have not disputed your numbers nor presented an exaggeration. The numbers are irrelevant like I have mentioned before, my original point which was lost under the emotionally charged personal rant of yours was, to remind any observer, to point out that there is no insurgency in Azad Kashmir, there is not young boys and men being killed under the guise of security. There are no women being raped to protect the democratic ideals of weak minded nation, no old who men who are fed their body bits every day till they are finally killed.
Sir, my skin is tough enough to weather your words and insults, but the skins of young boys who are peppered with bird shots to re-enforce the democratic tyranny of the majority is clearly not. My rants may be indeed be emotional and not legally binding, but they are no less factual as yours.
Nice rejoinder.
One question:
Can you explain lack of unrest, opposition to Pakistani Forces during Operation Gibraltar and a peaceful Kashmir valley till 1989? Curious to know your answer.
If the Jewish people could wait over 2,000 years to make an effort to retake their nation with the help of outsiders, please tell me why the Kashmiris are not allowed the same?
