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Indians Loosing Momentum on Propoganda against Pakistan?

XYON

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Just heard the news of media that the new home minister Mr. Chadambarum is now heading to the US with the so-called PROOF AGAINST Pakistan. To me it seem more like that the US is not returning Indian calls and has lost interest to ''pressure'' Pakistan after the last visit of Admiral Mullen to both sides of the fence. Indian Minister's visit may be more to pacify the local electorate then to really achieve anything else. I thought the Indians had provided the US ample proof of Pakistan's involvement? Why then send a Minister? Maybe to RUB it in a bit more??

Is the Indian Government now really getting desperate just because its so called ant-Pakistan bashing strategy has not bore the fruit it was looking for?

However bad timing for India as the USA and Israel (its buddy) are both currently embroiled in Presidential Transition and the bombing of Hamas!! So let see what kind of attention does Mr. Chadumbarum gets from the Department of State?

What Says the Forum here?
 
Just heard the news of media that the new home minister Mr. Chadambarum is now heading to the US with the so-called PROOF AGAINST Pakistan.
What Says the Forum here?

To me everything looks according to some plan. Do you think India believes Pakistan will handover the list of ppl it wants? NEVER. Its just a formality of submitting Indias protest. According to me govts in pak is not that stable. Also India's air strike doesnt make any sense too and it might not even kill the terrors. But ait strike will create more and more probs. So INDIA cant do much about it. India has to protect within and kill the terrors.

Now when it comes to PAK what India trying to do is get more US influence on PAK. Thats all I has to do now. If pakistan signs a deal for US to enter its air/land with new president its a great victory to India. Obama is really wants to do this. Not sure how Zardari will be able to convenice. If India ensures Pakistan will get into war mood like now fighting against the terros in afghan border for another 5-6 years its a huge loss to pakistan.
 
^^^^ Your point of view is understood!

Lets see what kind of diplomatic treatment does your Minister gets in the US and what kind of a joint statement, if any at all, does the US-India meet comes up with at the end? My personal view is that if the US has not responded until this time to your calls for help, it would not do so during your Ministers visit.

Pakistan value as an ally to war on terror to the US at present exceeds the perceived value of strategic alliance with India (at expense of Russia) and hence the cold shoulder so far on the Mumbai affair from Washington DC. Obama will be no different from Bush whereas Pakistan-Afghanistan issues are concerned.
 
^^^^ Your point of view is understood!

Lets see what kind of diplomatic treatment does your Minister gets in the US and what kind of a joint statement, if any at all, does the US-India meet comes up with at the end? My personal view is that if the US has not responded until this time to your calls for help, it would not do so during your Ministers visit.

Pakistan value as an ally to war on terror to the US at present exceeds the perceived value of strategic alliance with India (at expense of Russia) and hence the cold shoulder so far on the Mumbai affair from Washington DC. Obama will be no different from Bush whereas Pakistan-Afghanistan issues are concerned.

India Minister will have positive out come with visit in USA because till India haven't take any rush up action till now...

as per you view "Obama will be no different from Bush whereas Pakistan-Afghanistan issues are concerned".
Ya there will be the same goal but it is very importance that which approach Obama Govt will adopt make very difference for Pakistan
 
Lets see what kind of diplomatic treatment does your Minister gets in the US and what kind of a joint statement .
I dont expect anything from US this time either major official decision or even discussion. Its a time for US to focus on new president. Its not about treatment.

Pakistan value as an ally to war on terror to the US at present exceeds the perceived value of strategic alliance with India (at expense of Russia

Either 9/11 or mumbai attacks are just a trigger points. The individual loss has been done and no way it can change. Now its about how contries carry it further on bilateral relations. US simply cant act smoothly between two now. It has to support one. From economical strategical POV US has major advantage with India NOW. You can clearly see their stand regarding terrors in Kashmir before 10 years and now. The change has brought them to pakistan NOW.
 
I dont expect anything from US this time either major official decision or even discussion. Its a time for US to focus on new president. Its not about treatment.



Either 9/11 or mumbai attacks are just a trigger points. The individual loss has been done and no way it can change. Now its about how contries carry it further on bilateral relations. US simply cant act smoothly between two now. It has to support one. From economical strategical POV US has major advantage with India NOW. You can clearly see their stand regarding terrors in Kashmir before 10 years and now. The change has brought them to pakistan NOW.

I agree that your Minister will not be attended to nor a joint statement be published simply because the US Presidency is in transition! But then why visit the US at this time? What would be the diplomatic benefit, if at all any? Does this not show sheer desperation on part of GoI on not getting the desired results from its offensive against Pakistan? That's the question!

Secondly, US may be wooing India for the sake of an anti-China frontier at this time. However, with Russia as your traditional partner-in-arms and with Russia currently asserting itself over US (case and point is Georgia), I would not believe that your GoI long-term planners would jump into bed too quickly with the Americans at the risk of pissing off the Russians. After all, 99% of your technology base in military is Russian and you have to be careful not to piss them off!

Therefore and as long as the US forces are engaged in Afghanistan, which will now be a very long time to come, Pakistan will remain on US priority a notch higher than India. The US left Afghanistan after the Soviet war and never looked back until 9/11, they would not be doing the same again in the foreseeable future.

Mumbai, like all other similar terror events, will eventually & soon be forgotten by all in light of the larger global game.
 
Chidambaram to go to US with 26/11 evidence

NEW DELHI: Pakistan will have its wish. Calling Islamabad's bluff, India will next week give a dossier of evidence from the Mumbai terror
attacks, which will include damning evidence showing Pakistan's complicity in the planning and execution of the attacks.
( Watch )

After a couple of weeks when India seemed to be losing the diplomatic battle with Pakistan, the government's new move is being regarded as a major diplomatic campaign. Pakistan has spent the past days either in strongly-worded denials regarding either their terrorists or their links to Mumbai.

The dossier will be given to Pakistan, China, US, UK and other key countries. The evidence will be given to their ambassadors in India as well as in their capitals simultaneously. "We expect Pakistan to act on the evidence we provide," said senior government sources.

The other countries will be expected to use the dossier to push Pakistan to act against the terrorists. The core of India's strategy post-Mumbai continues to be to push the international community to act against Pakistan. On Saturday, PM Manmohan Singh continued the tirade. While stating that war was no solution, he said in Shillong, "I hope some sense will prevail on the leadership of Pakistan to recognise that tackling terrorism is an area that needs cooperation."

"It (Pakistan) has to take action on the demand from all civilised countries that the perpetrators (of Mumbai attacks) are brought to book. We hope that these criminals will be handed over to us to face trial," Singh said.

But the policy that is believed to be yielding diminishing returns, and by sharing evidence India hopes to get the international community to lean on Pakistan in a more forceful way.

The dossier contains the detailed confession of the lone terrorist held in the Mumbai terror attack Amir Ajmal Kasab, photographs and identities of all the terrorists, phone call logs, the GPS device's information and phone call intercepts — pretty much everything that has now emerged in the public domain. The evidence, being put together, also includes the logbook recovered from the vessel in which the 10 terrorists came from Karachi, records of satellite phone used by the attackers and transcript of conversations between the attackers and their handlers in Pakistan during the attack, sources said.

The dossier will also include the corroborative evidence tracking the journey of the attackers from Karachi to Mumbai. Investigators have found evidence to show that the terrorists, who struck at Taj Hotel, Trident Hotel and Nariman House on November 26, were in touch with their handlers in Karachi even while their three-day engagement with security forces was on.

Meanwhile, home minister P Chidambaram is expected to make his first trip to the US next week in his current capacity. His visit will almost dovetail into Barack Obama's inauguration on January 20.

The details of the visit were finalized between Chidambaram and US ambassador David Mulford on Saturday. Chidambaram's visit comes as India takes its first steps to set up a more robust intelligence and homeland security setup. The US has agreed to share its experiences in the wake of 9/11 which saw them setting up their systems.

Chidambaram's trip to US also comes after a quiet visit by the US' director of national intelligence Mike McConnell. Chidambaram is expected to meet US secretary of department of homeland security Michael Chertoff and US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice.

The US' top investigating agency, FBI, has shared quite a bit of its own findings with the Indian government. FBI was granted unprecedented access to all the evidence and intelligence collected by the Indians as well as interviewing Kasab. A lot of their findings will make it to the dossier.

The expected diplomatic gains from the move are still unclear particularly as it is becoming clear that countries like the US, China and Saudi Arabia -- the three that have any influence on Pakistan -- may not be willing to add that extra heft against Pakistan, loath to pressure a fragile civilian government. US also has to worry about Pakistan seizing upon an intervention of it for India to formally pull out of the fight against Taliban.

In his remarks on Saturday, the PM again said, "The growing menace of terrorism and naxalism is a cause of worry. The government will not compromise with terrorism...There were some initial setbacks, but we will overcome them. The government will go to any extent to root out terrorism from the country."

Chidambaram to go to US with 26/11 evidence-India-The Times of India
 
I agree that your Minister will not be attended to nor a joint statement be published simply because the US Presidency is in transition! But then why visit the US at this time? What would be the diplomatic benefit, if at all any? Does this not show sheer desperation on part of GoI on not getting the desired results from its offensive against Pakistan? That's the question!

Secondly, US may be wooing India for the sake of an anti-China frontier at this time. However, with Russia as your traditional partner-in-arms and with Russia currently asserting itself over US (case and point is Georgia), I would not believe that your GoI long-term planners would jump into bed too quickly with the Americans at the risk of pissing off the Russians. After all, 99% of your technology base in military is Russian and you have to be careful not to piss them off!

Therefore and as long as the US forces are engaged in Afghanistan, which will now be a very long time to come, Pakistan will remain on US priority a notch higher than India. The US left Afghanistan after the Soviet war and never looked back until 9/11, they would not be doing the same again in the foreseeable future.

Mumbai, like all other similar terror events, will eventually & soon be forgotten by all in light of the larger global game.

The world has moved on from Mumbai crisis and spotlight is now firmly on Gaza crisis. Condi Rice has cancelled her China visit to focus on Gaza crisis. Chidambaram will probably get some face-time with Obama/Clinton but they will probably also be preoccupied with Gaza. And Israel has signalled that the Gaza operation will be long, so jury still out on when and how it will all end...this can get more serious if Hezbollah opens a second front. Mumbai ceased to be a priority for US govt when GoI declared there is no threat of war...

Russia will not mind India's coziness with US unless its interests are directly impacted. E.g. India's P8I deal with US would not worry Russia as they benefit from Gorshkov/Flanker/PAKFA deals . Russia will be more concerned on India's position on Ukraine/Georgia/Missile Shield, etc. where they are keen to drum up support.
 
The world has moved on from Mumbai crisis and spotlight is now firmly on Gaza crisis. Condi Rice has cancelled her China visit to focus on Gaza crisis. Chidambaram will probably get some face-time with Obama/Clinton but they will probably also be preoccupied with Gaza. And Israel has signalled that the Gaza operation will be long, so jury still out on when and how it will all end...this can get more serious if Hezbollah opens a second front. Mumbai ceased to be a priority for US govt when GoI declared there is no threat of war...

Russia will not mind India's coziness with US unless its interests are directly impacted. E.g. India's P8I deal with US would not worry Russia as they benefit from Gorshkov/Flanker/PAKFA deals . Russia will be more concerned on India's position on Ukraine/Georgia/Missile Shield, etc. where they are keen to drum up support.

I agree with your first paragraph, but not too sure about the second one though!

Inducting the US made Naval Surveillance Aircraft P8I 'impacts' likely replacement or upgrade of the Russian one's that the IN is currently using. Wooing the US for the MCRA aircraft 'impacts' your IAF traditional relationship with Russia and the equivalent range of Sukhoi's and their likely future sales! Already Russia has given a soft 'wrist-slap' to India by approving the soviet engines for the JF-17 aircraft (through China) despite the Indian lobby's all out efforts to block the sale! However the GOOD part for us in this likely development is that Pakistan will hopefully have access to the Russian advanced weapons technology which will be a welcome addition in our weapons arsenals.

Indian simmering over-confidence may just bear the right fruit for Pakistan! :enjoy:
 
my point is this that india is not ready for war against pakistan and will never attack pakistan. india's great weakness is its airforce. india is trying to indigenously develop the HAL Tejas aircraft to replace its existing almost 250 obslete MIG-21. at first india decided to equip the prototype HAL Tejas aircraft with the General Electric F404-GE-F2J3 afterburning turbofan engine, a parallel programme was also launched in 1986 to develop an indigenous powerplant. Being led by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment, the GTRE GTX-35VS, named "Kaveri", was expected to replace the F404 on all production aircraft.
The delay in development of the LCA was attributed mainly to India's lack of experience in designing sophisticated fighter aircraft. India had only previously manufactured a second generation fighter (HF-24 Marut). Taking a leap from 2nd Generation to 4th Generation did prove to be an obstacle. US sanctions over India's controversial nuclear tests along with the IAF's ever-changing requirements did not help the LCA project. In a May 2006 interview, HAL chairman Ashok Baweja had said that the fifth prototype vehicle (PV-5), the trainer prototype, and the first of the eight LSP aircraft would be delivered before the end of 2006. These aircraft will help accelerate the initial operational clearance for the LCA.
It was expected to be inducted into the IAF by the end of 2006, with the LCA's System Design & Development (SDD) phase finally being completed in 2010. A trainer version is under development and the design of the Naval version is complete, and are expected to fly in 2008. However LSP-1 made its first flight only in April 2007, while the Trainer prototype is yet to be delivered.
In 2007, it was reported that the Tejas in its present form may not be able to meet the IAF's Air Staff Requirements (ASRs). Reportedly, its performance in terms of thrust and airframe qualities was still unsatisfactory. To complete the project at the earliest, a top level review is conducted by the Chief of Air Staff once every quarter and a monthly review by the Deputy Chief of Air Staff.
Due to this significant delay in HAL Tejas program india was not able to induct new fighters to replace its existing MIG-21's and they decided to upgrade them. but they will never show their MIG-21's in case of war.
i am showing you the comparison of pakistan and indian airforces

Indian Aircraft Inventory
Ilyushin/IAI Phalcon Flight Trial 0
Sukhoi Su-30MKI Flanker-H In service 80 Trainer 0 Eventual total 230 fighters by 2015.
Reports suggest at least 2 Sqdns/40
additional aircraft ( 20 Russian built/20 HAL
built) by end 2009/early 2010. Balance 110
HAL built at the rate of 1sqdn/20 per year till 2015
HAL Tejas In service 0 Trainer 0 Still not in service. 20 ordered. Eventual
total 140
Dassault Mirage 2000 In service 39 Trainer 12 Mirage fleet (51 aircraft) to be upgraded to
Mirage 2000-5 standards. As of April, 2008,
Thales & Dassault chosen as Upgrade OEMs.
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29 In service 56 Trainer 6 62 aircraft to be upgraded, deal signed in 2008
Fulcrum for $ 964 Million. Upgrade to latest SMT standards
but with additional Indian/Israeli/French equipment
, plus new version of Zhuk ME radar, new Mission
computers, airframe overhaul, new EW fit, new
engines etc.
SEPECAT Jaguar In service 104 Trainer 27 68 early aircraft upgraded to DARIN III
standard. HAL has closed the production line for
the Jaguar, now using it for AJTs. In all 178 aircraft
In service 6 Trainer 2 have been received by the IAF, including 20 IS
17 IB new builds. Eventually upgraded/new 100
Jaguars(IS +IB) plus 8 upgraded IM. Total 6 sqdns.
Around 35 aircraft have been lost in accidents
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-27 In service 120 Trainer 12 No 2 SQ will be used for maritime air support.
Flogger-D/J Some 40 aircraft have been upgraded, another 40
to follow ?
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23BN In service 40 Trainer 10 stay in service up to end 2009 ?

Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 In service 104 Trainer 13 125 MiG-21bis upgraded to Bison standard,
Fishbed In service 48 Trainer 8 ( 4 aircraft lost ??) with Kopyo radar, R-77 and
In service 70 Trainer 8 R-73E missiles, glass cockpit, new avionics and
self defence equipment. All MiG-21s to be phased
out by 2011 except MiG-21 Bison, which will stay
in service up to 2020 (some reports suggest 2017?)
Total Aircrafts of india In service 667 Trainer 98
In service -1 Trainer 0 Still in Flight Trial
In service -40 Trainer -10 Being Phased out
In service -104 Trainer -13 Obsolete
In service -48 Trainer -8 Obsolete
In service -70 Trainer -8 Obsolete
Actual Indian Aircraft Available for war In service 404 Trainer 59

Pakistan Aircraft Inventory
Chengdu JF-17 Thunder In service 10 Multi-Role (240 more planned)
Chengdu J-10B Vigorous Dragon In service 0 Multi-Role J-10B 36 to be delivered in 2009 under the designation "FC-20"
General Dynamics F-16A Block-15 Fighting Falcon In service 28 Multi-Role
General Dynamics F-16B Block-15 Fighting Falcon In service 16 Training & Multi-Role
General Dynamics F-16 C/D Block 52 Fighting Falcon In service 0 Multi-Role 18 ordered(Deliveries in 2010) + 18 options
Chengdu F-7PG Skybolt In service 46 Trainer 9 Interceptor
Chengdu F-7MP Skybolt In service 90 Trainer 15 Interceptor & Ground-Support

Dassault Mirage ROSE-I (Mirage-IIIO) (Refurbished: Ex-Australian)
In service 28 Interceptor
Dassault Mirage ROSE-I (Mirage-IIIDP) In service 4 Training & Interceptor
Dassault Mirage ROSE-II (Mirage-VEF) (Refurbished: Ex-French) In service 16 Strike & Ground-Support
Dassault Mirage ROSE-II (Mirage-VDF) (Refurbished: Ex-French) In service 6 Training & Strike & Ground-Support
Dassault Mirage ROSE-III (Mirage-VEF) (Refurbished: Ex-French) In service 14 Precision Strike
Dassault Mirage-IIIEP In service 12 Interceptor & Ground-Support
Dassault Mirage-IIIEL (Refurbished: Ex-Lebanese) In service 11 Trainer 7 Interceptor & Ground-Support
Dassault Mirage-IIIRP In service 10 Reconnaissance
Dassault Mirage-VPA3 In service 9 Naval Support
Dassault Mirage-VPA2 In service 15 Ground Support
Dassault Mirage-VPA In service 26 Trainer 2 Ground Support
Dassault Mirage-V (Refurbished: Ex-Libyan) In service 10 Interceptor & Ground-Support
Nanchang A-5C Fantan In service 40 Ground-Support & Tactical Strike (Currently being phased out).

Saab 2000
In service 1 Airborne Early Warning

KJ2000
In service 5 Airborne Warning and Control System
Total Aircrafts of Pakistan In service 392 Trainer 33

so my friends there is not much difference between the two airforces as far as the numbers are concern and as we all know india will not enter in war at 1 to 1 ratio. Historicaly the ratio was always 3 indian to 1 pakistani aircraft
 
India will attack Pakistan on only 1 condition.
That USA attacks it form the west, while India attacks it from the East.
Cause India clearly does not have the guts to Attack Pakistan all by its self

So no one must fool himself by saying that war will not happen
War will 100 % happen, its just a matter of time.

and even if you think war will not happen, still be prepared
 
India will attack Pakistan on only 1 condition.
That USA attacks it form the west, while India attacks it from the East.
Cause India clearly does not have the guts to Attack Pakistan all by its self

So no one must fool himself by saying that war will not happen
War will 100 % happen, its just a matter of time.

and even if you think war will not happen, still be prepared

Its not about guts. It is about going for the best possible approach under the circumstances that provides the best returns at a minimum cost.

We have had 4 wars and everytime your generals were under the same mugalata.
 
India will attack Pakistan on only 1 condition.
That USA attacks it form the west, while India attacks it from the East.
Cause India clearly does not have the guts to Attack Pakistan all by its self

So no one must fool himself by saying that war will not happen
War will 100 % happen, its just a matter of time.

and even if you think war will not happen, still be prepared

thats wat i was thinkin before mumbai attacks(attacks from both the borders). indo pak relations were not goin well and on the other hand pak was having skirmishes with american troop on western border. now if pak would have let american troop enter pakistan, situation today would have been totally different. india would have been in much dominating position and could have also conducted those surgical strikes by now. with world economic climate gettin worst everday and on top of that this gaza conflict has over all benifited paksitan by a great deal.
 
india is preaparing for the war in 2012 or 13 not in 2008 according to me
 
If India does decide to go for war if wont last, by that time we should have a large number of Jf17s, J10s, Awacs and so on and our defence will become more impregnable.
 

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