Indians got India,not Hindus- MJ Akbar

[Ayush]

very true..

 

[Areesh]

There is no end to this B.S, .

True. There is no end to Bharati BS.

,is it pakistani's eternal question to prove their choice in 1947 was correct and continue justification of that with whatever petty articles he can get

Errr. Article is not by a Pakistani or published Pakistani news source.

in a country of 1.2 b....every claim is true somewhere, also that very claim is proven false elsewhere.

That is one pathetic excuse you guys have for every shit happening in your country. We have a billion plus population so every shit is understandable and possible.

 

[acetophenol]

Their people had a headstart, but our people had better heads.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Mr Akbar raises a very good point when he asks, why are more Muslims being killed in PAKISTAN a nation created in the ideology of the Islamic faith than in all other Muslim nations combined? Is any Pakistani really going to have the audacity to claim the almost comparable (in size terms) Muslim population in India faces the same threat to their lives as those in Pakistan?

 

[janon]

Hmm..

Yes there are folks here who truly don't like Islam or Christianity or even "desiccated" Hindus, as private citizens they are free to hold on to said views, we do not punish people for "thought crimes".

The Indian State on the other hand does not have such hangups, for every riot that occurs where a Muslim kills a Hindu or a Hindu kills a Muslim there is another Hindu/Muslim who shelters the innocents being hounded and protects him/her at the cost of his/her life in the same riots.

Where we do end up failing is in our ability to apply law and order and equipping the LEAs for dealing with mass violence which always has a political subtext or push behind it. Since our lower judiciary severely under-performs the problem gets compounded when justice is denied in the aftermath of such mass violence. While the fates of the politically connected instigators and agent provocateurs are generally safe in the hands of their patrons, in fact this is where the 02 riots take much significance since NO ONE was spared scrutiny and even elected officials found out that political clout could not save them from being indicted and punished.

As for the State as a political entity (we are not referring to electoral politics here) any allegation of such discrimination goes for a toss when the allegedly much maligned Muslims end up leading our strategic programs and even holding on to divisional commands in J&K of all places.

Divisional? Try Corps level. Lt Gn Syed Ata Hassnain, as commander of II corps, was responsible for keeping Kashmir Indian. And it is in his tenure that the army won the hearts and minds of the locals, due to his visionary changes to the CI operations.

About those riots and the failure of the LEAs, I have to point out that after 2002, no major riot has taken place in the country, so on the whole I think we are improving. Has there been a decade before this that was so (relatively) riot and polarization free? And what is encouraging is that the improvement is ground up - it is not due to any radical changes in policework or force structure or training, but because civil society has started maturing. As you rightly point out, even high ranking MLAs and ministers were tried and prosecuted for those riots, in stark contrast to the '84 riots or the post Babri demolition riots. One cabinet minister(Maya Kodnani) was the highest to be charged and prosecuted. And common people across the country have also become wary of such practices. Any political party that tries to win votes by inflaming religious sentiments will find themselves losing a lot more than they gain. This is very different from the early 90s. Even with the much reviled (mostly by Pakistanis) Modi at the helm of their campaign, the BJP has not spent any time on the Ayodhya issue. That is not what anybody wants to hear today. The beauty of democracy is that if the citizens mature, the rulers will also have to mature, or perish.

 

[acetophenol]

Lets add some fuel to the fire:Mohammad Hidayatullah

Acting President of India,Vice President of India,Chief Justice of India

 

[Dillinger]

Divisional? Try Corps level. Lt Gn Syed Ata Hassnain, as commander of II corps, was responsible for keeping Kashmir Indian. And it is in his tenure that the army won the hearts and minds of the locals, due to his visionary changes to the CI operations.

About that riots and the failure of the LEA, I have to point out that after 2002, no major riot has taken place in the country, so on the whole I think we are improving. And what is encouraging is that the improvement is ground up - it is not due to any radical changes in policework or force structure or training, but because civil society has started maturing. As you rightly point out, even high ranking MLAs and ministers were tried and prosecuted for those riots. One cabinet minister being the highest charged. And common people across the country have also become wary of such practices. Any political party that tries to win votes by inflaming religious sentiments will find themselves losing a lot more than they gain. This is very different from the early 90s. Even with the much reviled (mostly by Pakistanis) Modi at the helm of their campaign, the BJP has not spent any time on the Ayodhya issue. That is not what anybody wants to hear today. The beauty of democracy is that if the citizens mature, the rulers will also have to mature, or perish.

I've mentioned Sir Ata too many times, so I kept it simple.

As for the debate on the required reforms within the police and law and order setup, its too exhaustive to start here.

The highlighted part is the real crux though, as the populace matures in terms of political thought and priorities so does the political dispensation, even with his wild popularity were Modi to contest on the lines of the campaigns of the previous decade he would fail and even if Rahul Gandhi suddenly set down the first stone of the Ram Mandir he would still not improve his political prospects.

 

[Sam Manekshaw]

Mr Akbar raises a very good point when he asks, why are more Muslims being killed in PAKISTAN a nation created in the ideology of the Islamic faith than in all other Muslim nations combined? Is any Pakistani really going to have the audacity to claim the almost comparable (in size terms) Muslim population in India faces the same threat to their lives as those in Pakistan?

I ask the same to answer @Pakistanisage

 

[Dillinger]

Lets add some fuel to the fire:Mohammad Hidayatullah

Acting President of India,Vice President of India,Chief Justice of India

Abdul Kalam could have easily stuffed us by revealing the complete details of the IGMDP and ruining any chance of us having a strategic defense program to begin with. I wonder why we evil folks trusted him.

As banal as the above sounds, it is the only fitting reply.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Jo Hindu ki baat karhey ga woo he India pe raj karhey ga- Danga Babu

I guess you should first convince those fellow Indian Hindus who think Muslims are outsider because they adopted the beliefs and practices of Abrahamic faith(Christianity and Islam) aka belief of oppressors/looters/invaders (as per some Hindu Indians etc) then you should bother to convince Pakistani. Why you actually felt the need to prove it? You would never bother to convince/assure others if there was not any discrmination or communal divide in Indian society

 

[acetophenol]

Mr Akbar raises a very good point when he asks, why are more Muslims being killed in PAKISTAN a nation created in the ideology of the Islamic faith than in all other Muslim nations combined? Is any Pakistani really going to have the audacity to claim the almost comparable (in size terms) Muslim population in India faces the same threat to their lives as those in Pakistan?

I have raised the same question several times,most recent being to @Pakistanisage. But He accussed me of blabbering! What some Pakistanis are doing is that,they are crying that muslims are killed by hindus in India,while Muslims are killed by Muslims themselves in Pakistan

 

[Dillinger]

I have raised the same question several times,most recent being to @Pakisanisage. But He accussed me of blabbering! What some Pakistanis are doing is that,they are crying that muslims are killed by hindus in India,while Muslims are killed by Muslims themselves in Pakistan

Sectarian violence does not equate to the lack of communal harmony.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Where we do end up failing is in our ability to apply law and order and equipping the LEAs for dealing with mass violence which always has a political subtext or push behind it. Since our lower judiciary severely under-performs the problem gets compounded when justice is denied in the aftermath of such mass violence. While the fates of the politically connected instigators and agent provocateurs are generally safe in the hands of their patrons, in fact this is where the 02 riots take much significance since NO ONE was spared scrutiny and even elected officials found out that political clout could not save them from being indicted and punished.

I could not agree with you more on this front bro. All too often any Muslim vs Hindu (actually the out of hand protests of late have almost nothing to do with religion) clashes could all have been nipped in the bud or at the very least contained if the LEA community was up to the task of crowd control. Even today barring a few specialised units (CRPF's RAF) Indian LEAs are still not up to the task and relatively small grievances spiral out into mass protest and unnecessary destruction and violence.

In a nation of 1.2 BN+ people with the the population density of India protest, grievances and public displays of such discourse are going to be the norm but there is just no need for it to continuously spiral out into such widespread rioting and hooliganism. Just look at the Delhi 2012 gang-rape protests turned riots in Delhi. Properly equipped and trained LEAs would have contained the destruction and violence pretty easily but the Delhi police (the best funded police force in India) really struggled and it was only when serious numbers of the specialist RAF were deployed that the protests returned to their peaceful states.

In short get better trained and equipped Riot Cops (all cops need to be equipped and trained for this really) and you will see clashes across the board reduce in their destructive power. If ever a nation needed well trained riot cops with every force it was India.....

 

[acetophenol]

Abdul Kalam could have easily stuffed us by revealing the complete details of the IGMDP and ruining any chance of us having a strategic defense program to begin with. I wonder why we evil folks trusted him.

As banal as the above sounds, it is the only fitting reply.

Abdul Kalam is just the outer shell,names of successful Indians have no limits!

 

[Sam Manekshaw]

Jo Hindu ki baat karhey ga woo he India pe raj karhey ga- Danga Babu

I guess you should first convince those fellow Indian Hindus who think Muslims are outsider because they adopted the beliefs and practices of Abrahamic faith(Christianity and Islam) aka belief of oppressors/looters/invaders (as per some Hindu Indians etc) then you should bother to convince Pakistani. Why you actually felt the need to prove it? You would never bother to convince/assure others if there was not any discrmination or communal divide in Indian society

Remember your word....don't come back and say "we want talk".....it's upto to u take this advice or our explanation in rightful manner....if not,u just can ignore.