Indian surgical strikes: PAF strategy prevented India

[Bull]

Who knows - maybe they are clumps of trees.

Just because the GoI/IA claims something does not automatically make it true.

Wel then what are the drones bombing?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Wel then what are the drones bombing?

Suspected Taliban - usually hiding in houses and whatnot.

My post was in the context of Kashmiri insurgents and Indian 'surgical strikes' on alleged 'camps' that are the thread topic.

 

[Arik]

Wel then what are the drones bombing?

The drones are bombing the pakistani Taliban .We need to make a distinction here.The taliban is a case of friend turned foe for pakistan.But groups like LeT etc are still friends of Pakistan.

The US knows very well abt the Pakistani double game.But it is keeping quite atleast for the time being as it needs Pakistan to provide a safe passage for its supplies for troops in afghanistan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The drones are bombing the pakistani Taliban .We need to make a distinction here.The taliban is a case of friend turned foe for pakistan.But groups like LeT etc are still friends of Pakistan.

The TTP was never a 'friend of Pakistan'. The TTP arose independently from the Afghan Taliban and had goals (controlling Pakistan) that different from the goals of the Afghan Taliban (controlling Afghanistan).

The LeT is not considered a 'friend of Pakistan', it is banned, and the alleged masterminds of the Mumbai attacks, Shah, Lakhvi etc. are behind bars and under trial.

The US knows very well abt the Pakistani double game.But it is keeping quite atleast for the time being as it needs Pakistan to provide a safe passage for its supplies for troops in afghanistan.

The US is keeping quiet because there has reportedly been some agreement over addressing Pakistani concerns in Afghanistan, both in terms of the neutrality of the GoA in the Indo-Pak context, and with respect to a potential US withdrawal.

The arrests of about a dozen major Taliban leaders and stepped up operations and border posts (800+ Pakistani compared to 100+ NATO/afghan) belies your comment about 'double game'.

 

[Arik]

The TTP was never a 'friend of Pakistan'. The TTP arose independently from the Afghan Taliban and had goals (controlling Pakistan) that different from the goals of the Afghan Taliban (controlling Afghanistan).

The LeT is not considered a 'friend of Pakistan', it is banned, and the alleged masterminds of the Mumbai attacks, Shah, Lakhvi etc. are behind bars and under trial.

The US is keeping quiet because there has reportedly been some agreement over addressing Pakistani concerns in Afghanistan, both in terms of the neutrality of the GoA in the Indo-Pak context, and with respect to a potential US withdrawal.

The arrests of about a dozen major Taliban leaders and stepped up operations and border posts (800+ Pakistani compared to 100+ NATO/afghan) belies your comment about 'double game'.

If the LeT is banned then why is its leader allowed to make provocative speeches against India????It does not matter if shah,lakhvi r behind bars.What is more important is that the terror camps are operational.

 

[deckingraj]

Thanks for accepting that!

They are terrorists undoubtedly. US is killing them because Pak has increased its efforts to clamp down on the threats of NATO and US and hence you would get the much needed help from NATO and US to eliminate our threats. So its a give and take from where I see it. We help them, they help us. So we are both helping each other, simple. Regarding LET or other splinter groups, from what I understand and please correct me if I am wrong, you may be suggesting that they can collude with Taliban and Al-Qaeda etc. For now we are actively eliminating Al-Qaeda, if we cut that main source these smaller groups will not be able to function properly.

Now i am tatally confused...Sorry for that...may be i am not getting it because of the vast number of conspiracy theories on the run since TTP menace was blamed on US as well...There were claims that TTP chief was killed only becuase ISI gave false information to CIA and got him killed..blah blah....Anyways let me take your post on merit and do not mix it with others..

So you are saying US and Pak are helping each other to solve the menace of terrorism...TTP is agasint Pakistan and Taliban is against US...Good great for you and for the region....

Now would you atleast agree that if India help TTP then in turn she is playing with this delicate balance between NATO and Pakistan???? So in other words India would be down playing US interests if she choose to help TTP???

You are saying exactly what I said but in a different way. Pakistan also struck peace deal in the hope of them disarming. And it was not that Pakistan government let them run a parallel government, but it was a case of allowing them a judicial system that was based purely on Sharia. As a muslim country we dont see any problems with that. But we realised that in the veil of judicial system these people had other ambitions in mind. and hence the Army was called into action.

Comon man....what other ambitions in mind?? They wanted to have Sharia on whole of Pakistan....and Since when havign a separate judicial system not equivalent to running a parallel governement????


Please choose your words carefully....I am an enthusiast and don't believe in taking cheap shots...So please don't choose to use words just to win the argument....I hope you are not doing that....With that in mind let me highlight one line from your above comment

As a muslim country we dont see any problems with that

Are you serious??? So you have no problems in imposing Sharia law on entire Pakistan??? Please bear with my lack of knowledge but i believe few of the things that it imposes is No Education for Women...BUrqa a must(and not choice)...Men having beard a must(and not choice) etc etc....

It wasn't aimed at you mate.

I know that...Was kidding with you...

Would you disagree with me if I said both are terrorists? if your answer in No then you can understand my claim of this proximity.

So LET, JEM are also terrorists right??? but there are people who claim them as charity instutes...Anyways let me not derail the discussion and hit on your point... MOISTS are not anti-indian and they have lot of sympathy because these people have been ignored by GOI in the past...They lost their support(to a larger extent when they choose the path of violence) still GOI knows that MOISTS are a political problem and should not be dealt with Iron Hand but with a political process...Lot of initiatives have been taken for them so that we can Share the newly found Indian prosperity...They are not blowing every corner of my country...Do you have same views about TTP??

So yes both have choosed the path of Violence however comparing TTP with MOISTS is like comparing apples with Oranges...

In my personal view i don't think MOISTS are terrorists...because majority of them do not go for violence...They are people who have been sandwitched between corrupt GOvt. officials and their camrades who have chosen the path of violence...

Thanks for the praises you showered on PAF. If you guys have such respect for PAF then you should also understand that even if this happens in a surprise move, do you think PAF will just sit on its arse and not retaliate? Especially knowing their track record and abilities!

Please read my post again...All i said is that i have doubt they would be able to prevent such attack...However i have little doubt they will retaliate...

And just like you mate, I hope that our great countries never come to that brink. We should embrace each others as friends and work together on our differences peacefully! later

Agreed...

 

[deckingraj]

When Samjhota Express was bombed was it Indian state actors involved? No right. Same is the case with Mumbai attacks. We did not send them to bomb you.

Well again don't compare Apples with Oranges....Let me show you the difference but before that a fact

Unlike popular belief Col Purohit is/was not involved in Samjhota Express bombings....Though some UN resolution put blames on LET...

a) Samjhota Express occured in Indian Land though not clear(not going with UN) it was done by Indian's or terrorist organizations across the border
b) Samjhota Express findings and COl Purohit accusation was done by Indian investigation agencies..
c) Mumbai incident occured on Indian land by Pakistani Nationals who came from Karachi Harbour...
d) Mumbai incident was planned and supported by Pakistani handlers sitting in Pakistan while the operation was on...

So in essence Samjhota Express is an internal security matter whereas Mumbai is not...Because here Pakistani SOIL has been used...so saying that we did not send them to bomb you in not enough...Your country soil is being used agaisnt my country where as vice-versa is not true...

In other words there is no case for you to strike my country if something is happening inside my country...This becomes my internal issue...However if your internal issue spills over and results in incidents as grave as 26/11 then there is a case for surgical strikes....Also please understand Mumbai was crippled for almost 3 days...I am sure apart from lives you can understand the kind of monetary loss that India suffered....

So may be now you would like to think about your statement of flexing muscle...because India did showed restraint....

Regarding the remainder of your speech here.. I hope you stay peaceful and keep growing! But what about providing assistance to TTP and helping Baloch insurgents.. Isn't that flexing your muscles and making an innocent (..oh.. I don't know anything about it) face at the same time? Hypocrisy is one word to describe it. Although Mumbai was not orchestrated by GOP but I hope it gave you a taste of what we go through because of your hypocrisy!

Buddy though you are talking about hypocracy yet if you closely look at your statement you will find how hypocratic it is...When GOI accused GOP for their assistance in mumbai attack you gjuys ask for proofs...Don't you???? Whatever we provided was rejected by saying this is not enough....Anyways we did manage to provide sufficient proofs to make GOP accept that non-state actors were involved...However when it comes to India till date no proof has been provided and yet you are saying that GOI is involved????

Now i don't want to derail the discussion with things like

- Internal sources within ISI and Army says so
- We have proofs but will show at right time
- Indian arms were found...blah blah

because all these accusation don't hold ground...Such things have been provided by India since 90's in Kashmir yet the argument has been rejected by GOP and Kashmiri militants are/were considered as Freedom Fighters...Bombings in Pakistan started only from 2003 whereas Bombings in India are happening from 90's...So your argument of we getting a taste of our medicine holds no ground...though i can say the same to you....

Adios mate and please drink a glass of water before you reply this time, I sense tempers flaring....

Please accept my apologies if you find my reply flaming...This kind of reply is not my cup of tea but i will still try to ensure that you don't feel offended....Also thanks for replying with a cool head....

 

[Cynic Waheed]

Now i am tatally confused...Sorry for that...may be i am not getting it because of the vast number of conspiracy theories on the run because TTP menace was blamed on US as well...There were claims that TTP chief was killed only becuase ISI gave false information to CIA and got him killed..blah blah....Anyways let me take your post on merit and do not mix it with others..

So you are saying US and Pak are helping each other to solve the menace of terrorism...TTP is agasint Pakistan and Taliban is against US...Good great for you and for the region....

Now would you atleast agree that if India help TTP then in turn she is playing with this delicate balance between NATO and Pakistan???? So in other words India would be down playing US interests if she choose to help TTP???

I hope I get this across without creating any more confusion. Yes, at the moment, particularly in the last year the US/NATO and Pak forces have joined and are collaborating at unprecedented levels. This has not happened previously in the last 8 years or so.

Look mate, without meaning to be rude I see it like this. We all rely on news sources, both national and international. The pictures that we have in our minds are built on these reports. Both of us do not really know what the ground situation really is, however the best we can do is assess the situation impartially.

So assessing the current situation and from what I see happening at the moment is that India is being sidelined slowly from Afghanistan. And that would only be because our military has some compelling evidence and reasons to object to Indian involvement. Some theories in Pakistan go as far as saying that India is/was supporting the TTP etc.. with US totally ignoring the actions of India. The attempt was to build the case to the world that Pakistan is not a secure place and its time we strip them off there nuclear arsenal. God knows best! But this was and still is a strong belief in many sections of Pakistani public. But the US had to change its policy due to 2 reasons: a) Pak Army's successful operations and b) US has come to a renewed understanding that it needs Pak more than ever to give it a face saving exit. And seeing the current climate this would make sense and also show you why there is this renewed help on both sides of the border.

What ever the realities are, and I certainly don't claim that I am in any position to verify any of this. But it is not necessarily impossible for the Indian government to be involved in all of this. I mean you have a problem with Pakistan and would you not use whatever means possible to harm our interests?! It shouldn't be hard to believe for you because it is a possibility!

Comon man....what other ambitions in mind?? They wanted to have Sharia on whole of Pakistan....and Since when havign a separate judicial system not equivalent to running a parallel governement????

It's not equal to running a separate parallel government. Even now in Pakistan there are different types of court systems running, for example, Anti-terrorist courts, whose laws differ to the usually practised courts. Here in the UK for example, they have the UK law and the European Law as well. It does not mean that having a separate judicial system is equivalent to having a parallel government. The UK is still ruled by the west minister and not by the European Union Parliament!

In a broader context, u need to understand what Sharia law really is. In short, it is the quickest and cheapest form of law. You apply it you see the results quickly. Ever heard of Dr Zakir Naik? Search his reply of sharia law/court and it will help you understand that sharia law is not equivalent to having a separate parallel government.

Please choose your words carefully....I am an enthusiast and don't believe in taking cheap shots...So please don't choose to use words just to win the argument....I hope you are not doing that....With that in mind let me highlight one line from your above comment

Look dude, we are NOT playing for a gold medal here that I want to win from you. I replied to you in all honesty and sincerity and presented my point of view with respect. And I demand that respect back. If you think you are wasting time here with someone 'trolling' then by all means don't reply back. Because I am in no mood of making cheap shots and don't want to even be involved in useless arguments. But I hope same is the case with you. you are free to disagree with me, its your right!

Are you serious??? So you have no problems in imposing Sharia law on entire Pakistan??? Please bear with my lack of knowledge but i believe few of the things that it imposes is No Education for Women...BUrqa a must(and not choice)...Men having beard a must(and not choice) etc etc....

YES, I repeat that I have NO objection to Shari ah law. Even right now part of our law is based on Shari ah but not a hundred percent.The form of things you have witnessed on your telly are not the precise definition of Shari ah law. Women in the family of our beloved Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) were actively involved in the well being of the society. Education is a MUST for both Men and Women according to Islam. So these versions of Shari ah you have seen are actually an insult to Shari ah law. I think we both agreed that these people(TTP) were 'terrorists' so they used the word Shari ah as a disguise to misguide the masses and further their own agenda of takeover of Pakistan. I'm glad Pak army fought and defeated these enemies of Islam.

I know that...Was kidding with you...

So LET, JEM are also terrorists right??? but there are people who claim them as charity instutes...Anyways let me not derail the discussion and hit on your point... MOISTS are not anti-indian and they have lot of sympathy because these people have been ignored by GOI in the past...They lost their support(to a larger extent when they choose the path of violence) still GOI knows that MOISTS are a political problem and should not be dealt with Iron Hand but with a political process...Lot of initiatives have been taken for them so that we can Share the newly found Indian prosperity...They are not blowing every corner of my country...Do you have same views about TTP??

Most of these organisations are banned in Pakistan atm.

So yes both have choosed the path of Violence however comparing TTP with MOISTS is like comparing apples with Oranges...

read ur above statement again bro. If they have both chosen the path of violence then how is it comparing apples with oranges?! Not with you here..... please elaborate.

In my personal view i don't think MOISTS are terrorists...because majority of them do not go for violence...They are people who have been sandwitched between corrupt GOvt. officials and their camrades who have chosen the path of violence...

lol. Now I am the one CONFUSED! If I said the same thing about LET that majority of them don't go for violence then would you consider them not to be 'terrorists'?

And you know my remark in the first post was aimed at someone called arik i think! And I quoted Moists and and Naxalites both, you have just picked up one and been talkin about it since. This is how I see it. Anyone involved in killing innocent human beings are murderers and terrorist be it X, Y or Z and in India, Pakistan or USA!

Please read my post again...All i said is that i have doubt they would be able to prevent such attack...However i have little doubt they will retaliate...

And can I ask politely what is it that makes you feel that PAF wont be able to prevent it? of if you are quoting the retaliation bit for PAF then why do you think PAF will not retaliate. Sorry wasn't too sure which portion was for which air force! but please enlighten me! thanks.

Agreed...

Glad that we AT LEAST agree on something

 

[Cynic Waheed]

Well again don't compare Apples with Oranges....Let me show you the difference but before that a fact

Unlike popular belief Col Purohit is/was not involved in Samjhota Express bombings....Though some UN resolution put blames on LET...

a) Samjhota Express occured in Indian Land though not clear(not going with UN) it was done by Indian's or terrorist organizations across the border
b) Samjhota Express findings and COl Purohit accusation was done by Indian investigation agencies..
c) Mumbai incident occured on Indian land by Pakistani Nationals who came from Karachi Harbour...
d) Mumbai incident was planned and supported by Pakistani handlers sitting in Pakistan while the operation was on...

a) So was it done by Indians or Pakistanis? Don't get you there mate! Its like yeah it was Indian terrorist, no it was Pakistani terrorist! Make up ur mind!

b) Point b contradicts point a! MAKE UP UR MIND!

c)That's absolute non sense! Provide a credible link which is not Indian!

d) Yeah rite.. that's why most of the people killed were Pakistani's.. can you also provide a source for this please... and that too a neutral one!

So in essence Samjhota Express is an internal security matter whereas Mumbai is not...Because here Pakistani SOIL has been used...so saying that we did not send them to bomb you in not enough...Your country soil is being used agaisnt my country where as vice-versa is not true...

When Pakistani people were killed in Samjhota express, INDIAN SOIL was used to kill my fellow country men. the most astonishing thing is that part of ur army was involved in terrorist act!

In other words there is no case for you to strike my country if something is happening inside my country...This becomes my internal issue...However if your internal issue spills over and results in incidents as grave as 26/11 then there is a case for surgical strikes....Also please understand Mumbai was crippled for almost 3 days...I am sure apart from lives you can understand the kind of monetary loss that India suffered....

Firstly, we did not strike your country. Please refrain from accusing us! There are reports that claim that these terrorist were in touch with people inside India and it could not have been executed without Indian's help. Most importantly, It was the failure of your country's Intel agencies which is why this atrocity was committed. and it went on for three days this is also a failure of your police mate. When GHQ was under siege it took our forces less than 24 hours to get the results and free the hostages. Don't throw this crap at us, spend more money on training them and you will get the results faster next time.

So may be now you would like to think about your statement of flexing muscle...because India did showed restraint....

India always shows restraint. Even now when we are slowly kicking you out of Afghanistan you are doing exactly that! Grapes are Sour.. I know it hurts! I feel for you!

Buddy though you are talking about hypocracy yet if you closely look at your statement you will find how hypocratic it is...When GOI accused GOP for their assistance in mumbai attack you gjuys ask for proofs...Don't you???? Whatever we provided was rejected by saying this is not enough....Anyways we did manage to provide sufficient proofs to make GOP accept that non-state actors were involved...However when it comes to India till date no proof has been provided and yet you are saying that GOI is involved????

What is Hypocrisy in this. Like we all know by now that GOP did not take part in this scenario, these groups acted on their own with the help of Indian buddies. So like, if today you say that I killed your neighbour and I ask you to give me a proof? would you consider it Hypocrisy?

Regarding the proofs. Look, we have an independent judicial system which is very free and its not under the influence of GOP. The courts here did not consider your proofs to be sufficient and you have failed to provide more esp regarding the LET leader! This is not Hypocrisy, this is going by the LAW! I mean if the Indian Gov today points a finger at me and says this guy is a murder without providing sufficient proofs then the courts have a responsibility to give me justice according to merit. Not on the principal of pleasing Indian Government!

Now i don't want to derail the discussion with things like

- Internal sources within ISI and Army says so
- We have proofs but will show at right time
- Indian arms were found...blah blah

because all these accusation don't hold ground...Such things have been provided by India since 90's in Kashmir yet the argument has been rejected by GOP and Kashmiri militants are/were considered as Freedom Fighters...Bombings in Pakistan started only from 2003 whereas Bombings in India are happening from 90's...So your argument of we getting a taste of our medicine holds no ground...though i can say the same to you....

I guess the world is probably seeing things from a different point of view at the moment. Indian honey moon in Afghanistan is almost getting to an end and I know it is not easy to see a diplomatic defeat from a neighbour which is less than one fourth of your size.

The way you are acting here esp that 'blah blah' part. Lol! I suggest you drink another glass of water and come back again!

Till then.. nice try and keep trying to malign Pakistan! It aint working at the mo.. better find another way round it!

Adios.

Please accept my apologies if you find my reply flaming...This kind of reply is not my cup of tea but i will still try to ensure that you don't feel offended....Also thanks for replying with a cool head....

No worries dude. I am not offended man. I mean you have your point of view and I respect that and I expect you to do the same. And my apologies in advance if I sound mean but you know some things have to be said!

Enjoy ur eve.

 

[gubbi]

because our military has some compelling evidence and reasons to object to Indian involvement.

Its called Paranoia.

Some theories in Pakistan go as far as saying that India is/was supporting the TTP etc.. with US totally ignoring the actions of India.

They are called 'Conspiracy Theories'. Apparently there is no dearth of these where they come from.

It's not equal to running a separate parallel government. Even now in Pakistan there are different types of court systems running, for example, Anti-terrorist courts, whose laws differ to the usually practised courts.

In a broader context, u need to understand what Sharia law really is. In short, it is the quickest and cheapest form of law. You apply it you see the results quickly. Ever heard of Dr Zakir Naik? Search his reply of sharia law/court and it will help you understand that sharia law is not equivalent to having a separate parallel government.

You do know what you are talking about, right? Different types of court systems does not mean different 'flavors' of Judiciary. Its one and the same, different types of courts to dispense justice as written/stipulated in the constitution, and administered by the judiciary.
So Sharia law can be used to subvert the local laws and impose justice as deemed fit by a religious head rather than a learned judge? Really? If that is not a parallel form of judiciary, pray, then what is? Sharia law, unless authorized by the constitution, is unlawful and amounts to a parallel setup. Go figure.
Civics is sure a dry subject. Yup people tend to sleep in class.

Here in the UK for example, they have the UK law and the European Law as well. It does not mean that having a separate judicial system is equivalent to having a parallel government. The UK is still ruled by the west minister and not by the European Union Parliament!

ROFLMAO! EU laws are accepted only after ratification by the country's parliament/representatives. Read moar please!

When GHQ was under siege it took our forces less than 24 hours to get the results and free the hostages.

BIG difference there, mate. Terrorists struck at soft civilian targets at peak time in Mumbai. Lots of civilians around, our security forces had a tough time to clear the trash.
GHQ, the heavily guarded epicenter of Pakistani security forces was attacked by terrorists in broad daylight and yet....it took so much time to subdue them?

The writing's on the wall.

The rest of your posts are, to put it nicely, not worth replying to.

 

[deckingraj]

I hope I get this across without creating any more confusion. Yes, at the moment, particularly in the last year the US/NATO and Pak forces have joined and are collaborating at unprecedented levels. This has not happened previously in the last 8 years or so.

Look mate, without meaning to be rude I see it like this. We all rely on news sources, both national and international. The pictures that we have in our minds are built on these reports. Both of us do not really know what the ground situation really is, however the best we can do is assess the situation impartially.

So assessing the current situation and from what I see happening at the moment is that India is being sidelined slowly from Afghanistan. And that would only be because our military has some compelling evidence and reasons to object to Indian involvement. Some theories in Pakistan go as far as saying that India is/was supporting the TTP etc.. with US totally ignoring the actions of India. The attempt was to build the case to the world that Pakistan is not a secure place and its time we strip them off there nuclear arsenal. God knows best! But this was and still is a strong belief in many sections of Pakistani public. But the US had to change its policy due to 2 reasons: a) Pak Army's successful operations and b) US has come to a renewed understanding that it needs Pak more than ever to give it a face saving exit. And seeing the current climate this would make sense and also show you why there is this renewed help on both sides of the border.

What ever the realities are, and I certainly don't claim that I am in any position to verify any of this. But it is not necessarily impossible for the Indian government to be involved in all of this. I mean you have a problem with Pakistan and would you not use whatever means possible to harm our interests?! It shouldn't be hard to believe for you because it is a possibility!

Very fair words...Why wouldn't you believe that and i would be Naive to say Indian hand is not a possibility...Though based on my same impartial thoughts i conluded that it don't make sense for India to help TTP for various reasons....

a) We have learned the hard way about the meaning of Frankenstein
b) India will loose a lot if her hand gets exposed in helping terrorists...Especially when the sole super power of the world is involved than it would be naive to do something that can undermine their itnerests...
c) We got lot of brownie points about the way we handled Kargil...9/11 helped to change the opinion on world and suddenly organizations like LET's were considered Terrorist organiazations....So by getting involved in something that you are accusing of other party to do is very dangerous...


Anyways as said there are things that we know, there are things that we know we don't know and there are things that we don't know we don't know....One last point about making a case for denying Pakistan nuclear arsenal...This is a bit too much of overstatement....

It's not equal to running a separate parallel government. Even now in Pakistan there are different types of court systems running, for example, Anti-terrorist courts, whose laws differ to the usually practised courts. Here in the UK for example, they have the UK law and the European Law as well. It does not mean that having a separate judicial system is equivalent to having a parallel government. The UK is still ruled by the west minister and not by the European Union Parliament!

In a broader context, u need to understand what Sharia law really is. In short, it is the quickest and cheapest form of law. You apply it you see the results quickly. Ever heard of Dr Zakir Naik? Search his reply of sharia law/court and it will help you understand that sharia law is not equivalent to having a separate parallel government.

Buddy few definitions of Govt

The act or process of governing, especially the control and administration of public policy in a political unit.
he office, function, or authority of a governing individual or body.


and please note that Sharia Law was one of the points in the peace deal....This is one of the expert from how Human Rights Group posted it

While the full details of the peace agreement have not been officially released, the new legal framework is seen by the Taliban and affiliated groups as formal acquiescence by the Pakistani government to their administrative control of the region.

Pakistan: Swat Deal Grave Threat to Rights | Human Rights Watch

So may be you don't consider giving administrative control to Taliban as parallel govt. but I do...Anyways that's my view please feel free to ignore it...

Look dude, we are NOT playing for a gold medal here that I want to win from you. I replied to you in all honesty and sincerity and presented my point of view with respect. And I demand that respect back. If you think you are wasting time here with someone 'trolling' then by all means don't reply back. Because I am in no mood of making cheap shots and don't want to even be involved in useless arguments. But I hope same is the case with you. you are free to disagree with me, its your right!

Thanks for saying that....I am all for meaningful discussion...Because with such discussion you get to learn perspective of the person you are debating wth....

YES, I repeat that I have NO objection to Shari ah law. Even right now part of our law is based on Shari ah but not a hundred percent.The form of things you have witnessed on your telly are not the precise definition of Shari ah law. Women in the family of our beloved Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) were actively involved in the well being of the society. Education is a MUST for both Men and Women according to Islam. So these versions of Shari ah you have seen are actually an insult to Shari ah law. I think we both agreed that these people(TTP) were 'terrorists' so they used the word Shari ah as a disguise to misguide the masses and further their own agenda of takeover of Pakistan. I'm glad Pak army fought and defeated these enemies of Islam.

Ohh i get it....Well i hope the peace deal was in favor of Correct Sharia Law and not the Taliban Style Sharia Law...You would know better than me... Though people outside had different perspective....but please do not compare Pakistan Law with Sharia law that peace deal agreed to...Because(TTP forced Sharia Law) this is not choosen by People of Pakistan....It was forced because GOP choose to struck peace deal with them to avoid collateral damage...

Most of these organisations are banned in Pakistan atm.

These can't be the words of a leader whose organization is banned

Hafiz Saeed calls for jihad against India

So is it banning on paper or the individuals are actually discouraged only time will tell...

read ur above statement again bro. If they have both chosen the path of violence then how is it comparing apples with oranges?! Not with you here..... please elaborate.

Ohhh...Let me explain...Yes you are right if you are planely comparing them because they have subjected to Violence...I am more of comparing tham about circumstances and their potency....As far as India's official stand Moists are banned and declared terrorist group...

lol. Now I am the one CONFUSED! If I said the same thing about LET that majority of them don't go for violence then would you consider them not to be 'terrorists'?

I have explained above...Honesly all those who are not using Arms against Innocents, nor is supporting them Morally or by any other means are not terrorists...If someone has joined LET considering it as a Charity Group then how can he/she be a terrorist?? Please explain....

And you know my remark in the first post was aimed at someone called arik i think! And I quoted Moists and and Naxalites both, you have just picked up one and been talkin about it since. This is how I see it. Anyone involved in killing innocent human beings are murderers and terrorist be it X, Y or Z and in India, Pakistan or USA!

And you are right...I have expained above what i mean...

And can I ask politely what is it that makes you feel that PAF wont be able to prevent it? of if you are quoting the retaliation bit for PAF then why do you think PAF will not retaliate. Sorry wasn't too sure which portion was for which air force! but please enlighten me! thanks.

Buddy as i said with surgical strikes there comes an element of surprise...They don't happen in full public glore when you get enough time to put your defences in Place...secondly like PAF IAF is also quite capable of getting the job done....Thirdly the popular belief that Indian Fighter Jets would be involved in carrying out surgical strikes is flawed...Surgical Strikes is different from Cold Start doctorine....Surgical Strikes means India attacking Terror Camps operating in P-O-K...and reason would be retaliation of a terror strike in India....You don't want to risk losing your Fighter Planes and therby having no choice but to escalate the war...Where you would put your best bet is to attack these terror camps by Drones or cruise Missiles....Now please note that all i am saying is that i have doubt that they would be able to prevent surgical strikes but surely they would retaliate....Again these are my views so feel free to disagree...

Glad that we AT LEAST agree on something

Same here

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

If the LeT is banned then why is its leader allowed to make provocative speeches against India????It does not matter if shah,lakhvi r behind bars.What is more important is that the terror camps are operational.

Hafiz Saeed is not the leader of the LeT - he split from it to form the JuD.

And why should we stop him from making provocative speeches against perceived harmful external influence? No law against that.

What is more important is proving that 'terror camps are operational' don't just expect Pakistan to take India's word for it. Till then Pakistan has done what it should, arrest the alleged masterminds of the Mumbai attacks.

 

[deckingraj]

a) So was it done by Indians or Pakistanis? Don't get you there mate! Its like yeah it was Indian terrorist, no it was Pakistani terrorist! Make up ur mind!

b) Point b contradicts point a! MAKE UP UR MIND!

c)That's absolute non sense! Provide a credible link which is not Indian!

d) Yeah rite.. that's why most of the people killed were Pakistani's.. can you also provide a source for this please... and that too a neutral one!



When Pakistani people were killed in Samjhota express, INDIAN SOIL was used to kill my fellow country men. the most astonishing thing is that part of ur army was involved in terrorist act!

Lets not miss the point in blame game...The point is India showed restraint by not choosing for surgical strikes after mumbai...All i am doing is to show you that there is a difference between Samjhoata Express and Mumbai...

Let me try again....During mumbai Israeli citizens...US citizens and citizens of many other nationalies were killed...Under such a situation all you can do is issue a travel alert to your citizens not to visit the specific country...However when terror attack is planned in my country....Suported by non-state actors from my country, citizens from my country travel to your country and commit a terror strike than you have a case to opt for Surgical Strikes.....All i am saying is that we had a case but we did not opt for it...which showes our restraint...I know this is not inline with your comments of India Flexing Muscle but i also know that you would try to see it being impartial....

As far as killings of Pakistani's is concerned....

Over 60 people are reported dead, most of them Pakistanis returning home, but the death toll also includes many Indians, including some Indian officials.
http://pakistaniat.com/2007/02/19/p...blast-samjhota-express-train-bomb-blast-dead/

So saying that only Pakistani died in it would be wrong....

Firstly, we did not strike your country. Please refrain from accusing us! There are reports that claim that these terrorist were in touch with people inside India and it could not have been executed without Indian's help. Most importantly, It was the failure of your country's Intel agencies which is why this atrocity was committed.

Please read my post again and understand the context...I am not saying that you strike my country....It would have been an all out war mate...It was indeed a failure of my country intel agencies but this is not how world works....If i go by your logic than RAW or no RAW bomb blasts in your country is failure of intel agencies of Pakistan so better fix it instead of naming India...Don't make sense right???

Obviously one has to improve their internal security which GOI and GOP would be doing however you cannot ignore the fact that their are some infrastructure in your neighbour's territory which is being used to plot terror strikes in India...Now either you request the state to deal with it or you deal with it...Am i wrong here????

and it went on for three days this is also a failure of your police mate. When GHQ was under siege it took our forces less than 24 hours to get the results and free the hostages. Don't throw this crap at us, spend more money on training them and you will get the results faster next time.

Wont comment on this...Surely you need to learn a bit more on complexity involved in tackling terror strikes in Civilian Areas like Hotels vs an Army Head Quarter....

India always shows restraint. Even now when we are slowly kicking you out of Afghanistan you are doing exactly that! Grapes are Sour.. I know it hurts! I feel for you!

And you were saying i should drink water....

What is Hypocrisy in this. Like we all know by now that GOP did not take part in this scenario, these groups acted on their own with the help of Indian buddies. So like, if today you say that I killed your neighbour and I ask you to give me a proof? would you consider it Hypocrisy?

Regarding the proofs. Look, we have an independent judicial system which is very free and its not under the influence of GOP. The courts here did not consider your proofs to be sufficient and you have failed to provide more esp regarding the LET leader! This is not Hypocrisy, this is going by the LAW! I mean if the Indian Gov today points a finger at me and says this guy is a murder without providing sufficient proofs then the courts have a responsibility to give me justice according to merit. Not on the principal of pleasing Indian Government!

So our proofs rejected by your Courts does not mean anything but GOP not providing any proof is OK...and you are accusing me of being hypocrite???

I guess the world is probably seeing things from a different point of view at the moment. Indian honey moon in Afghanistan is almost getting to an end and I know it is not easy to see a diplomatic defeat from a neighbour which is less than one fourth of your size.

Diplomatic victory has nothing to do with size of the Country....If this delusion is making you feel good then whom am I to spoil the party...Secondly last time i heard that India is going to increase her presence in AF...If this is what you call as defeat then surely we have been defeated....

The way you are acting here esp that 'blah blah' part. Lol! I suggest you drink another glass of water and come back again!

Till then.. nice try and keep trying to malign Pakistan! It aint working at the mo.. better find another way round it!

Adios

Well adios because you are not countering my points with explanation but choose/tend to getting personal...Anyways it was good to talk to you...If you feel like continuing without glass of waters and countering my points than you are more than welcome!!!

No worries dude. I am not offended man. I mean you have your point of view and I respect that and I expect you to do the same. And my apologies in advance if I sound mean but you know some things have to be said!

Enjoy ur eve.

Its OK buddy ....

 

[deckingraj]

Hafiz Saeed is not the leader of the LeT - he split from it to form the JuD.

Agno this is what wiki say's

On December 11, 2008 Hafiz Mohammed Saeed was again placed under house arrest when the United Nations declared Jamaat-ud-Dawa to be an LeT front.

Hafiz Muhammad Saeed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And why should we stop him from making provocative speeches against perceived harmful external influence? No law against that.

What??? You have no law against preventing an individual from making provocative statements which is as serious as waging a war against another Nation when you are an ally on Global War on terror???

What is more important is proving that 'terror camps are operational' don't just expect Pakistan to take India's word for it. Till then Pakistan has done what it should, arrest the alleged masterminds of the Mumbai attacks.

Its all about Proofs...Isnt' it AGNO??? Hope you share the same view when it comes to India's role in Baloch....

 

[Cynic Waheed]

Very fair words...Why wouldn't you believe that and i would be Naive to say Indian hand is not a possibility...Though based on my same impartial thoughts i conluded that it don't make sense for India to help TTP for various reasons....

a) We have learned the hard way about the meaning of Frankenstein
b) India will loose a lot if her hand gets exposed in helping terrorists...Especially when the sole super power of the world is involved than it would be naive to do something that can undermine their itnerests...
c) We got lot of brownie points about the way we handled Kargil...9/11 helped to change the opinion on world and suddenly organizations like LET's were considered Terrorist organiazations....So by getting involved in something that you are accusing of other party to do is very dangerous...

OK. buddy am going to combine both of our posts into one as we are going round in circles about the same things.

a) But its different when you are operating Frankenstein in another country and not inside your own territory.
b) Very true. But there is a Big 'IF'! So be honest, w'dn't you take any chances if it can help your cause or will you just not take any chance just because there is this 'IF'?
c) I completely agree with you here, Pak's handling of the whole Kargil issue was a mess! And we are responsible for that change of opinion, lets say it was not well thought of. But the situation in Afghan is very different to Kargil. Here, there is so much going on in the ****** border that anyone can really get away with anything! So you deffo have the benefit of the doubt here which we did not have in Kargil!

Anyways as said there are things that we know, there are things that we know we don't know and there are things that we don't know we don't know....One last point about making a case for denying Pakistan nuclear arsenal...This is a bit too much of overstatement....

Like I said certain section of the public believes it... Although I just don't buy that argument.

Buddy few definitions of Govt

The act or process of governing, especially the control and administration of public policy in a political unit.
he office, function, or authority of a governing individual or body.


and please note that Sharia Law was one of the points in the peace deal....This is one of the expert from how Human Rights Group posted it

While the full details of the peace agreement have not been officially released, the new legal framework is seen by the Taliban and affiliated groups as formal acquiescence by the Pakistani government to their administrative control of the region.

Pakistan: Swat Deal Grave Threat to Rights | Human Rights Watch

So may be you don't consider giving administrative control to Taliban as parallel govt. but I do...Anyways that's my view please feel free to ignore it...

The reports that we had here in Pakistan were that it was just their Shari ah demand that was met. In return they would disarm. Although this deal is seen as a weakness from the government but in reality I believe it was a blessing in disguise. This deal actually exposed them and the sympathy they had amongst the masses simply disappeared. The administrator control was exercised by them(Taliban) thinking that they had subdued the GOP but you saw what happened afterwards...

Thanks for saying that....I am all for meaningful discussion...Because with such discussion you get to learn perspective of the person you are debating wth....

Totally agree.

Ohh i get it....Well i hope the peace deal was in favor of Correct Sharia Law and not the Taliban Style Sharia Law...You would know better than me... Though people outside had different perspective....but please do not compare Pakistan Law with Sharia law that peace deal agreed to...Because(TTP forced Sharia Law) this is not choosen by People of Pakistan....It was forced because GOP choose to struck peace deal with them to avoid collateral damage...

I believe the GoP was being slightly naive there thinking that Taliban truly want to implement the real spirit of Shari ah law. You have to also know the ground realities that the people of Swat were also supportive of it. They are very peaceful people and were tricked to believe that Taliban will ensure the real spirit of Shari ah. Little did they know that its the Taliban style Shari ah law. But I still think that this step by the GoP helped the Pakistani people make up their minds and the perception about Taliban tilted 180 degrees. This was a major blow to the militants and also the main catalyst which helps the Pak army clear the area.

These can't be the words of a leader whose organization is banned

Hafiz Saeed calls for jihad against India

So is it banning on paper or the individuals are actually discouraged only time will tell...

Look, a lot of people in India keeps saying things about Pakistan too. Say Shiv sehna, or Bal Thakray etc. It don't mattar. They have a mouth and they want to talk. Let them talk. We can't put a person behind bars just because we don't like what he says. It is against the basic freedom of the individual. Freedom of speech to be precise.

Ohhh...Let me explain...Yes you are right if you are planely comparing them because they have subjected to Violence...I am more of comparing tham about circumstances and their potency....As far as India's official stand Moists are banned and declared terrorist group...

I have explained above...Honesly all those who are not using Arms against Innocents, nor is supporting them Morally or by any other means are not terrorists...If someone has joined LET considering it as a Charity Group then how can he/she be a terrorist?? Please explain....


And you are right...I have expained above what i mean...

Look, I take it that we both are at the same page with regards to terrorism. I am saying exactly the same thing, if someone joined Let at the time when it wasn't banned thinking it is a charitable organisation then yes we can't call him a terrorist.

Buddy as i said with surgical strikes there comes an element of surprise...They don't happen in full public glore when you get enough time to put your defences in Place...secondly like PAF IAF is also quite capable of getting the job done....Thirdly the popular belief that Indian Fighter Jets would be involved in carrying out surgical strikes is flawed...Surgical Strikes is different from Cold Start doctorine....Surgical Strikes means India attacking Terror Camps operating in P-O-K...and reason would be retaliation of a terror strike in India....You don't want to risk losing your Fighter Planes and therby having no choice but to escalate the war...Where you would put your best bet is to attack these terror camps by Drones or cruise Missiles....Now please note that all i am saying is that i have doubt that they would be able to prevent surgical strikes but surely they would retaliate....Again these are my views so feel free to disagree...


Same here

yeah man this idea of surgical strikes is too far fetched. Seriously it annoys us Pakistani's. Same can be said about some of the splinter groups that are in Pakistan must annoy you. But we are dealing with these issues but you cannot dictate to us or go ballistic about it. Because we cannot go out against every one at once. There are more pressing priorities at the moment, mainly at our western border. Do you think it is our national policy to provoke you? maybe in the 90's or 80's! But things have changed since. Tell me in all honesty, who do you think will gain the most if India and Pakistan go to war? I mean Pakistan doesn't want war with India and India also is reluctant. We both understand the consequences if it were to happen. So who is it that is brewing all this war hype? Who will benefit the most if it happens? Not Pakistan, Not India, .... I leave that to your imagination.

We should stand together as friends and discuss every issue we have, from water to terrorism. The more we cooperate with each other the better for both of us. But if say, and its a big IF again, India was using Afghanistan as a proxy war with Pakistan then you would expect some retaliation in some form. It would be better if we understand each other more and help and assist on all issues. Only then this region will thrive at its best.

Ok buddy.. nice talking.