What's new

Indian strategic thinking and Pakistan.

The most fundamental difference between PLA and Indian Army war-fighting capability lies in the phenomenal logistic superiority of the PLA, and second only to that and flowing directly from that, their superiority in concentrating strength at relatively short notice. As has been pointed out by analysts and observers, or reported by their own publications, they have achieved the capacity to concentrate 25 divisions in three months time. A formidable metric; I had a stronger adjective in mind but toned it down for the sake of sobriety.

...........................................................................................................................................................................................

Finally, regarding the capacity required. Considering the needs of a mountain division, while it approximates that of a plain vanilla infantry division, additional capacity will have to be provided at brigade level, because of the need for each brigade fighting in hilly terrain to have its own integral very-light weight artillery component. These are still retained at division level in conventional formations, and that is totally useless in a mountain warfare context, where formations must necessarily be far more self-contained and autonomous, due to terrain. (to be continued).

Based on piecing together some indications from diverse sources, i calculated approximately 2000 MT of capacity would be needed for a division. That gives us 600 MT per brigade, fractionally higher to account for a heavier weight of integral artillery. Considering that two army corps would be assigned to this task, that should lead to twelve brigades on point defence, typically in one- or two-battalion formations, across theaters two and three (east Arunachal and west Arunachal), or about 7200 MT.

The stark reality that faces us is clear if we recall that each Mi17 carries 4 MT of cargo, and that our total strength of this aircraft is approximately 150, with another 100 on order.

A touch of enduring Von Schlieffen, characterized through an impetuous oriental pretense of bowing to boorish populist wish, flavored with antagonistic mortals, always wishing:

Aah ko chahiye ik umr asar honay tak
kon jeeta hey teri zulf ke sar honay tak

My longing for you requires a lifetime of realization
Who may live that long to see it realized?

The above naivety notwithstanding, it is indeed a viable and enduring solution. Though some aspects need a feeble bit of clarification.

The development of communication infrastructure up to the rail/road head is indeed very important for re-locating large bodies of troops and logistic support. In mountains however, the real problem emanates from these rail/road heads through often torturous shingle roads and tracks up to the reaches where troops are fighting. Fortunately for Von Schlieffen and subsequently Moltke, the Himalayas did not pose any problem, by not being there. And this is where the logistical nightmare come to-fore and forces a stark reality on to the defender as well as the attacker.

If the communication infrastructure along the border in NE India, beyond the rail or road-head, was not built earlier, was it due to the dissuasive strategy in order to effect a delay by presenting the nature in its barest form and letting the enemy cut through inhospitable mountains in order to logistically support the ingresses. OR – was it due to unavailability of resources or both. And I am not referring to the approach infrastructure being developed or suggested for rear areas in depth.

If the BRO would construct the infrastructure up to the border, this probably is also suggestive of a change in strategy; lets say from dissuasive to deterring. This may also fall in line with the proposed raising of new strike corps’ and other formations. Though may need much more over a period of time to become operational.

For the overall infrastructural development needs, India was seeking to raise 1 Trillion US Dollars, which according to the recent admission by an Indian government official, has not been achieved. This, not to say that it would never be achieved, but may incur a delay.

In case it was due to the needs of dissuasive strategy, the suggested changes along the border areas may also have to be based on either a change in strategy or it is coupled with a planned scorched earth policy (e.g road-routing/cratering/slides etc etc) in the face of an advancing enemy.

If the strategy remains being dissuasive, and no border approach roads are being planned, the 150 + 100 helicopters may meet a portion of the air supplied logistics needs (7200 MT) for a large body of troops ahead of the rail/road head, the rest may still have to be met through existing roads/tracks. This could be accomplished by achieving air parity and air superiority may not be needed.

Very interesting environment indeed.
 
.
Shallow objectives, executed within today's environment of an expected three- to six-week duration of hostilities before global pressures to stop fighting build up, will not succeed.

Only a series of military actions, each achieving a concrete but well-bounded step, each contributing to a cumulative weakening of the military system, each executed swiftly, to a plan, and terminated with protestations of peaceful intentions, will succeed in putting Pakistan into a position where she cannot readily interfere with the resolution of the northern problem.

Very interesting indeed.

I would like to copy-paste a quote from an interesting article posted by Jinx1, which may tend answer some of the views that you expressed. I paste this to the detriment of some people here who may accuse me of bringing in the nuclear factor every time conventional wisdom is being discussed.

the Accumulative Response Threshold (ART) may be evoked if India initiates a graduated application of force. In such a scenario, a naval coercion gradually escalated to blockade coupled with graduated conventional selective air and ground strikes on economic targets, communication infrastructure, politically sensitive locations and military targets are undertaken. The accumulative destructive effect of such conventional strikes may evoke either an early or a delayed nuclear response depending on the summative effect of destruction that has taken place.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...uclear-thresholds-analysis.html#ixzz22P1GZ0Si
 
.
Another reason why we need to work very hard to blunt their strategy by building a peace - there is no other way to describe the deliberation and sustained effort that will be needed for peace to prevail; it is something to be done in the teeth of an increasing radicalisation of the Pakistani population, an unrelenting pressure from the die-hard elements in their deep state, and spectacular acts of terror intended to break our resolve.


One can talk about this in detail with arguments and counter arguments.

Let me just say that, it is a mutual compliment.
 
.
^^^@ Joe Shearer, assuming apni bangla bujthe paren, looks like PM's er jonno 10000 post count chai, to jodi paren to ekta email add pathan, IBG'r discussion ta jomano jabe.

this man Joe, more looks like an illegal Bangladeshi Muslim migrants who might have got citizenship somehow, similar to around 2 mil. this man would be kept as an example for the Indian politicians, to learn a message from the posts of this man, what exactly these people will do in India if Indian government dont take proper action on these illegal Bangladeshi migrants sh!!ts ...... :pop:
 
. .
this man Joe, more looks like an illegal Bangladeshi Muslim migrants who might have got citizenship somehow, similar to around 2 mil. this man would be kept as an example for the Indian politicians, to learn a message from the posts of this man, what exactly these people will do in India if Indian government dont take proper action on these illegal Bangladeshi migrants sh!!ts ...... :pop:

I am sorry, can't help myself.

A person who hides behind a foreign flag and does not have the guts to display his own, speaks volumes about his true affiliation to his own.

This also means that a person like you can not even differentiate between your elbow and your a$$.

You may consider the elbow as part of the arm and to know about the a$$, please see the mirror.
 
.
I am taken aback. What about the Bailley Trail, which opened up Dalvi's position completely to the PLA?
If the Chinese comedown the Bailly Trail, they would emerge at Thambang, between Dirang Dzong and Bomdi La. The objective in 1962 was to cut Dirang Dzong and Se La, which was probably the only tennable defensive post at the moment. What can be the Chinese objective this time? Same?

Today the entire trail from Tulung La to Lap, from there through the Tse La Pass is extensively watched. I don't see the element of surprise here.
And what happens if they do not follow the grain of the terrain, where the mountains run north-west to south-east, but go across, in a left hook, into Bhutan? (a) the Royal Bhutanese Army's flank is turned; (b) XXXIII Corps flank is turned; (c) the only road link inito the north-east is a day's march away. As far as the likelihood of their crossing hill terrain against the grain is concerned, they did so on numerous occasions in Korea
Different times, different Armies all together, even in 62 the IA didn't had any qualms in entering Tsang Le. We can expect a repeat this time around too. I am finding it difficult to name a battle where the IA lost, even when logistics and ammo was abundant. Post of the post overrun were not teneble because of shortage of men and material. I am not questioning the Chinese superiority in infrastructure and logistics, simply that IA is in the same league as its adversary here. I don't see any PLA unit overrunning an IA post with impunity anytime soon.
 
.
If the communication infrastructure along the border in NE India, beyond the rail or road-head, was not built earlier, was it due to the dissuasive strategy in order to effect a delay by presenting the nature in its barest form and letting the enemy cut through inhospitable mountains in order to logistically support the ingresses. OR – was it due to unavailability of resources or both. And I am not referring to the approach infrastructure being developed or suggested for rear areas in depth.

If the BRO would construct the infrastructure up to the border, this probably is also suggestive of a change in strategy; lets say from dissuasive to deterring. This may also fall in line with the proposed raising of new strike corps’ and other formations. Though may need much more over a period of time to become operational.

You are right in that it was both the reasons.
It was a dissuasive strategy coupled with lack of resources. Both played at each other. To build roads and infra at the border would have facilitated faster movement. But faster movement for what?

There is indeed a change in strategy now, from as you put it dissuasive to detterent. The Army needs to be given the equipment so that it can fight there - thus the new Strike Corps coupled with the roads and infrastructure being built. Both are bring put together only now.

Thirdly, with respect to movement of men and material. You would be aware of IAF constructing, converting and upgrading many air bases along the border with China. There has been a very very conscious decision for IAF/MoD to purcase the hugely expensive C-17's. Recall Browne's interview, he said that the tonnage coupled with the ability to land on unpaved runways clinched it for them.

They are buying the C-17's just for this purpose along with a massive overhaul of the IAF infrastructure in the North East - to move men and material faster than they have been able to till now - to supplement the roads and rail network being built.
 
.
^^ if i am not wrong C 130 J Hercules operated by IAF will play bigger role in NE as it requires less runway that C 17s

however its payload is only 19,050 Kg compared to 77,519 kg payload of C 17 GM III
 
.
I am sorry, can't help myself.

A person who hides behind a foreign flag and does not have the guts to display his own, speaks volumes about his true affiliation to his own.

This also means that a person like you can not even differentiate between your elbow and your a$$.

You may consider the elbow as part of the arm and to know about the a$$, please see the mirror.

look, first my flag is of SU, so if you ever thought it correct then Im sorry on your IQ.....

second, I dont have any flag currently, few things are unique and hence i have adopted a unique flag but i have said over 100 times here that right now im on holiday in India and I was born and grew up in India. at least 100 times i have mentioned about my place of birth on PDF, over 10 times while talking to Joe also, ask him and check. (on truely, I would have Australian flag but its under consideration in UN, the man in picture is handling this issue.............)

rest, just check here and you will find at least half of the pakistanis have wrong flag, mainly Indian flag, and you all keep thanking them????? its more like how pakistani nationals attacked during Mumbai Attack on the name of "Indian Mujahidin" as, they simply feel shame to do so on the name of "Pakistani Mujahidin"? while the handlers of Mumbai Attacks like Mr Hafiz Saeed are 'political people' of pakistan?????

therefore, if you have a close look then having Indian flag, is now a national level Identity Crisis of both Pakistani and Bangladeshi people :wave:
 
.
You are right in that it was both the reasons.
It was a dissuasive strategy coupled with lack of resources. Both played at each other. To build roads and infra at the border would have facilitated faster movement. But faster movement for what?

There is indeed a change in strategy now, from as you put it dissuasive to detterent. The Army needs to be given the equipment so that it can fight there - thus the new Strike Corps coupled with the roads and infrastructure being built. Both are bring put together only now.

Thirdly, with respect to movement of men and material. You would be aware of IAF constructing, converting and upgrading many air bases along the border with China. There has been a very very conscious decision for IAF/MoD to purcase the hugely expensive C-17's. Recall Browne's interview, he said that the tonnage coupled with the ability to land on unpaved runways clinched it for them.

They are buying the C-17's just for this purpose along with a massive overhaul of the IAF infrastructure in the North East - to move men and material faster than they have been able to till now - to supplement the roads and rail network being built.

When dissuasion is a planned response strategy, keeping the area void of communication infrastructure may also be part of the plan. It cannot be both and has to be irrespective of the resources.

Provision of logistical support in mountains is split in two distinct modes. The mode of logistic supply up to the base is different, and the mode beyond the base up to the main defences is different. Unless understood and planned in the manner, it may become the difference between winning and losing a key battle, a key sector and may open a way for the enemy exploitation, seriously impinging on the success of overall strategy. And therefore the impact is indeed strategic.

The C-17s and C-130s etc fall within the first mode of logistical supply, unless used for logistical air drops for forward troops for which C-130s are more appropriate.

If the strategy here is active dissuasion and not deterrence, the realization of second mode of logistics supply has to be weighed in within the ambit of overall objectives.

I have seen news about building of rail/road infrastructure to support the first mode. However, nothing much appears to have been planned or undertaken for the second mode, which in my opinion is equally important, if not more in certain environment.
 
.
A touch of enduring Von Schlieffen, characterized through an impetuous oriental pretense of bowing to boorish populist wish, flavored with antagonistic mortals, always wishing:

Aah ko chahiye ik umr asar honay tak
kon jeeta hey teri zulf ke sar honay tak

My longing for you requires a lifetime of realization
Who may live that long to see it realized?

The above naivety notwithstanding, it is indeed a viable and enduring solution. Though some aspects need a feeble bit of clarification.

I appear to have given offence in some way not clearly understood, so it seems better to leave these preliminary remarks aside until greater comprehension is achieved.


The development of communication infrastructure up to the rail/road head is indeed very important for re-locating large bodies of troops and logistic support. In mountains however, the real problem emanates from these rail/road heads through often torturous shingle roads and tracks up to the reaches where troops are fighting. Fortunately for Von Schlieffen and subsequently Moltke, the Himalayas did not pose any problem, by not being there. And this is where the logistical nightmare come to-fore and forces a stark reality on to the defender as well as the attacker.

It is a failing of any brief note or comment that much valuable detail gets lost.

The PLA can afford to run rail lines right up until the border, since it has a high plateau to deal with, and sufficient ground between mountain ranges to build roads and railways. The IA cannot. It had entirely different terrain.

The intention was to convey the need to strengthen and expand existing lines, and allow more traffic to pass. The intention was also to enable strategic reserves from the left bank of the Brahmaputra to move forward fast and at lower cost than by lorry.

If the communication infrastructure along the border in NE India, beyond the rail or road-head, was not built earlier, was it due to the dissuasive strategy in order to effect a delay by presenting the nature in its barest form and letting the enemy cut through inhospitable mountains in order to logistically support the ingresses. OR – was it due to unavailability of resources or both. And I am not referring to the approach infrastructure being developed or suggested for rear areas in depth.

Both, as far as I can make out.

If the BRO would construct the infrastructure up to the border, this probably is also suggestive of a change in strategy; lets say from dissuasive to deterring. This may also fall in line with the proposed raising of new strike corps’ and other formations. Though may need much more over a period of time to become operational.

This will also address the popular demand for better roads in the hill country.

As for time frames, the background preparation, infrastructure building, re-orientation of troops, all such things considered, fitness to meet the needs of the northern border may take five years to bring about.

For the overall infrastructural development needs, India was seeking to raise 1 Trillion US Dollars, which according to the recent admission by an Indian government official, has not been achieved. This, not to say that it would never be achieved, but may incur a delay.

Delays taken into account, around five years is the estimate.

This is in any case necessary in order to try and put in place a permanent and lasting peace both on the west as well as on the north.

In case it was due to the needs of dissuasive strategy, the suggested changes along the border areas may also have to be based on either a change in strategy or it is coupled with a planned scorched earth policy (e.g road-routing/cratering/slides etc etc) in the face of an advancing enemy.

It is difficult to see dissuasive Strategy and deterrent strategy as working at cross purposes.

A purely dissuading strategy is not possible, because this region is well-populated, not thickly so, but enough to count in a democracy. Development has to come to the hills, along with infrastructure, so maintaining a wilderness as a defence is not much more than an accidental option, one which will disappear very shortly.

On the other hand, it is possible to postulate a fortress defence at known locations of geographic or strategic importance, coupled with a plan for swift and sufficient reinforcement on the direction of thrust and the dimensions of thrust of the enemy becoming clear, and with clear ideas about the critical tip-over point between defence and structured withdrawal.

Counter-attacks are seen as completely independent of this. But counter-attacks will also have to cope with the PLA's own tactics of flanking enemy positions, enfilading them and rolling them up from one end in a concentrated, asymmetric attack, while mounting ambushes on probable lines of retreat. Catching an enemy in flank who is himself moving fast to inflict flanking attacks on one's garrison troops, in mountain terrain, in the fog of war, with uncertain communications links in the mountains, is a hazardous task at best. It requires very high standards of physical effort, and of battlefield command abilities by field officers. Only a dedicated force, trained to the inch, can even think of pulling this off.

If the strategy remains being dissuasive, and no border approach roads are being planned, the 150 + 100 helicopters may meet a portion of the air supplied logistics needs (7200 MT) for a large body of troops ahead of the rail/road head, the rest may still have to be met through existing roads/tracks. This could be accomplished by achieving air parity and air superiority may not be needed.

It has already been discussed that such a strategy may not be available for very long. However, to examine the potential of this partial capability scenario, we note that 1000 MT may be transported at a time. That defines the size of force that might intervene at a time. Of course, admittedly, this effort can be repeated after a gap, once enemy intentions become clearer, but it all depends on the size of the enemy effort, and it does not seem wise to keep such a partial capability in place.

Very interesting environment indeed.
 
.
I am sorry, can't help myself.

A person who hides behind a foreign flag and does not have the guts to display his own, speaks volumes about his true affiliation to his own.

This also means that a person like you can not even differentiate between your elbow and your a$$.

You may consider the elbow as part of the arm and to know about the a$$, please see the mirror.

It is most unfortunate that you have been irritated by a somewhat mentally unbalanced character, who has some serious identity issues, and whose posts are full of dark allusions to his visa status, his citizenship status, his marriage to a Russian related to Putin, his acceptance of Russian citizenship, his sponsorship for Russian citizenship by Putin and such other very strange stuff.

I had occasion to point out the inaccuracies in statements that he kept making, after which he has been stalking me in every thread, and dropping dark hints that I am a Bangladeshi Muslim under a false flag.

This is so irrelevant that I have not taken notice hitherto, and do so now only in concern at his irritating you. It would be easy to get rid of the nuisance with a report to the moderators, but that seems overkill, and seems too drastic for a mixed-up north Indian idiot with these aspirational issues muddling his thinking.

Apologies for the nuisance.

Very interesting indeed.

I would like to copy-paste a quote from an interesting article posted by Jinx1, which may tend answer some of the views that you expressed. I paste this to the detriment of some people here who may accuse me of bringing in the nuclear factor every time conventional wisdom is being discussed.

the Accumulative Response Threshold (ART) may be evoked if India initiates a graduated application of force. In such a scenario, a naval coercion gradually escalated to blockade coupled with graduated conventional selective air and ground strikes on economic targets, communication infrastructure, politically sensitive locations and military targets are undertaken. The accumulative destructive effect of such conventional strikes may evoke either an early or a delayed nuclear response depending on the summative effect of destruction that has taken place.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...uclear-thresholds-analysis.html#ixzz22P1GZ0Si

The point is well taken.

In reality, presumably, it will not be as easy and seamless a process to map escalation as it is in theory.

The possibility of a nuclear response must be weighed, of course, before each step in any graduated process. Such a process presumably will allow roll-backs as well; theoretical constructions typically do not handle shifts in pressure very well.

If the Chinese comedown the Bailly Trail, they would emerge at Thambang, between Dirang Dzong and Bomdi La. The objective in 1962 was to cut Dirang Dzong and Se La, which was probably the only tennable defensive post at the moment. What can be the Chinese objective this time? Same?

Today the entire trail from Tulung La to Lap, from there through the Tse La Pass is extensively watched. I don't see the element of surprise here.

The point then is that we are discussing rather more than Namka Chu and the Thagla ridge. Which was my original point.

Different times, different Armies all together, even in 62 the IA didn't had any qualms in entering Tsang Le. We can expect a repeat this time around too. I am finding it difficult to name a battle where the IA lost, even when logistics and ammo was abundant. Post of the post overrun were not teneble because of shortage of men and material. I am not questioning the Chinese superiority in infrastructure and logistics, simply that IA is in the same league as its adversary here. I don't see any PLA unit overrunning an IA post with impunity anytime soon.

I am taken aback. How do you define a defeat? A post over-run is not a defeat? Then the arguments the Pakistanis use about Kargil hold good, that we used vastly superior force and hence it should not be considered their defeat or our victory.

What according to you happened in 62? a series of logistical failures?
 
.
I think we all need to also give importance to the terrain of the conflict we are discussing a war on.

I would here like to drag everyones attention to the Kargil conflict.Pakistanis did not have the air support and in some posts they were running low on supplies still they managed to put up a strong fight and the reason being Pakistan didnt want to officialy be in a war.

Our situation in a Indo-Chinese conflict would be totally different.We would have all the rights to defend our lands and the troops would be provided continous supplies no matter what plus the air support and the artillery support.I think it would be difficult in the end to do an invasion of the kind most members are talking of here.

Secondly,some members here are talking of superior Chinese infrastructure to which i agree 100%.I think our developments are taking place but on a much slower pace as compared to the Chinese and to not let the Chinese take advantage of this the IA has more boots on the border areas.Hence it doesnt give them as much big an advantage as it should.moreover we have bought some stratergic air lift a/cs which would be useful for quick supplies or troop insertion in an area whose infrastructure is not good.

Thirdly,The Bhramos combined with the Su 30,the Javelins,Light tanks(if inducted),LCH,Rudra,Mi 17 V5,well trained SFs,M777 etc overall make out a deadly combination.We were till now only talking of what India can do..I would like to know how would PLA try to counter this keeping all things in mind.
 
.
The point then is that we are discussing rather more than Namka Chu and the Thagla ridge. Which was my original point.
My contention was, apart from the Thagla Ridge and Namka Chu, all other possible points of ingress are watched too. Its no more like what the IA forward units experienced back in 1962. The entire military intelligence was clueless about the PLA thrust points.

To borrow a quote from somebody - We still aren't aware of the exact names of the PLA Units tasked with the NEFA onslaught. I am sure such isn't the situation now.

I am taken aback. How do you define a defeat? A post over-run is not a defeat? Then the arguments the Pakistanis use about Kargil hold good, that we used vastly superior force and hence it should not be considered their defeat or our victory.

What according to you happened in 62? a series of logistical failures?
I am not sure when did I challenge you on this? 62 was both a military as well as PR defeat. I just compared the situation then with what we have now, asserting simultaneously, that the IA was overrun not just because of superior PLA/inferior IA battle tactics, but majorly due to shortage of men and material. How do you explain troops getting deployed at 14000+ elevation in summer clothing, no acclimatization, weapons getting jammed, ammo running out with an operation underway and sundry? Or do you suggest otherwise?
 
.
Back
Top Bottom