Indian Space Capabilities

[Flintlock]

There are cheaper and more cost effective ways to achieve it. Thats the only point I am making.

Regards

India's space program runs on 3rd world funding and India's scientists work on 3rd world wages. It is probably the cheapest space program in the world.

Now I am not going to argue over which is cheaper, borrowing a satellite or building one on your own.

Howeer, I would definitely say that homegrown technology, if feasible, is always the best option.

 

[Always Neutral]

What exactly does all this have to do with India's space program?

It means the money can be spent on the social sector in India and by simultaneously co-operating with the US, Japan, EU and Russia you can still visit the moon at a cheaper cost.

Regards

 

[Always Neutral]

What exactly does all this have to do with India's space program?

Dear SA,

Since your posts are comprehensive and quite erudite please pm the answers of the 4 questions I asked you even if you don't consider them relavent to this topic. Would be interesting to see your view point.

Regards

 

[Flintlock]

It means the money can be spent on the social sector in India and by simultaneously co-operating with the US, Japan, EU and Russia you can still visit the moon at a cheaper cost.

Regards

Alght this is getting repititive.

I have already explained that it is not possible for India to cooperate with the US or EU or Russia or Japan on the scale that you mention. There are technology denial regimes, other restrictions in place.

India is already spending enough money in the social sector. It is a different matter that these funds are eaten away by corruption and inefficiency.

As I said earliier, its not like India is denying funds for education in order to go to the moon. That would be a very foolish thing to do.

 

[Always Neutral]

Alght this is getting repititive.

I have already explained that it is not possible for India to cooperate with the US or EU or Russia or Japan on the scale that you mention. There are technology denial regimes, other restrictions in place.

India is already spending enough money in the social sector. It is a different matter that these funds are eaten away by corruption and inefficiency.

As I said earliier, its not like India is denying funds for education in order to go to the moon. That would be a very foolish thing to do.

Thanks for the reply. Lets wait till the incident happens.

Till then.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No its not. I said that a world power needs a viable space program.
Now why would a world power need a viable space program?

1. For exploratory missions to scout for possible mineral sources, energy sources, possiblilities for human settlement.

2. Defence applications. To ensure that space is not monopolized by another power and hence national interests compromised.

3. For commercial purposes: ISRO can earn millions (and already is) by contracting.

My argument is not related to the space program, but specifically the lunar program, and specifically the mission to land a man on the moon.

Most of the advantages you mentioned are related to developing a space program, which I am not questioning, and am supportive of in Pakistan as well, as I am of the nuclear program (civil and military).

But on the issue of "mineral sources, human settlement" etc, you are just rattling off stuff from popular mechanics.

Even with their far more advanced space programs, when was the last time Western nations sent a manned mission to the moon? If the advantages mentioned above (for the moon - minerals, settlement) were realistic and necessary, why has the West simply been sitting around?

The fact is that all the necessary research can be conducted without the need for manned missions - the reasons behind it for India remain a quest for "status" and projecting itself as a "world power".

When that is contrasted with the generations of today and tomorrow who will go to bed hungry and never be part of this "proud middle class", it si unjustifiable in my eyes.

However, I understand your "pride" argument, though I disagree with it. I understand it because of your and Logic's posts in the Hindutva thread, and how you described the movement as one of "regaining Hindu pride".

 

[Flintlock]

My argument is not related to the space program, but specifically the lunar program, and specifically the mission to land a man on the moon.

Most of the advantages you mentioned are related to developing a space program, which I am not questioning, and am supportive of in Pakistan as well, as I am of the nuclear program (civil and military).

But on the issue of "mineral sources, human settlement" etc, you are just rattling off stuff from popular mechanics.

No I am not rattling off stuff from popular mechanics. Any visionary realizes that space is the next phase of human expansion.

NASA doesn't spend billions on exploring mars just to get a kick out of it.

Even with their far more advanced space programs, when was the last time Western nations sent a manned mission to the moon? If the advantages mentioned above (for the moon - minerals, settlement) were realistic and necessary, why has the West simply been sitting around?

The west has not been 'sitting around'. NASA is actually planning a moon mission in the next dacade.
The reason for the delays is because of the lull in space race after the cold war, not because of any lack of necessity.

Also because NASA has been concentrating its energies elsewhere, like Mars, for example.

Space exploration is a long-term thing. Not something that gives immediate gratification.

The fact is that all the necessary research can be conducted without the need for manned missions - the reasons behind it for India remain a quest for "status" and projecting itself as a "world power".

Not all research can be conducted without manned missions. Thats because the ultimate goal of moon exploration is human settlement.

Don't take my word for it. Ask the visionary heads of any successful space program.

Of course, it is also a quest for status and power projection. However, you don't need to put the word 'world power' into double quotes.

When that is contrasted with the generations of today and tomorrow who will go to bed hungry and never be part of this "proud middle class", it si unjustifiable in my eyes.

Again, the losers argument. I have already busted this line of thinking in a previous post, if you care to read it.

However, I understand your "pride" argument, though I disagree with it. I understand it because of your and Logic's posts in the Hindutva thread, and how you described the movement as one of "regaining Hindu pride".

Sorry, this has to do with national pride, not Hindutva.

You are hopelessly confused between these two.

Hindutva is a mass movement that reaches the grassroots of India. It doesn't interest the secular middle class, though they are affected by it to a certain degree.

However, the moon mission is mostly a source of pride for those who have satellite TVs and enough to eat. i.e. the middle class.

I don't know why I have to mention the obvious here, but there is a reason why countries have national flags, national emblems, national heroes, national monuments, national achievements.
Nationalism is just as important an ingredient for nation building as any other.

Don't dismiss it as something 'intangible' and 'unnecessary'.

 

[Flintlock]

Special cell set up to counter growing threat to space assets
10 June 2008


India has acquired an Integrated Space Cell under the aegis of the Integrated Defence Services Head Quarters to counter the growing threat to the country's space assets.

Defence minister AK Antony Defence minister AK Antony announced the formation of the new space cell under the aegis of the Integrated Defence Services Head Quarters , while addressing the Unified Commanders' Conference in New Delhi.

Antony said that although the country wanted to utilise space for peaceful purposes and remain committed to its policy of non-weaponisation of space, "offensive counter space systems like anti-satellite weaponry, new classes of heavy-lift and small boosters and an improved array of military space systems have emerged in our neighbourhood".

He said the new cell would act as a single window for integration among the armed forces, the department of space and the Indian Space Research Organisation.

The defence minister also announced the approval of the government for the setting up of a Defence Informatics Centre on the lines of the National Informatics Centre to cater to the e-governance needs of the armed forces, the defence ministry and other associated organisations.

He also said a defence information technology consultative committee (DITCC) comprising eminent personalities from the defence ministry, the three services, the ministry of communication and IT, academia and the industry was also being constituted. DITCC would seek to synergise all information technology related matters in the defence ministry, the three services and various organisations.

"DITCC has evolved a road map and a common approach for the integration of information technology in our armed forces," Antony said.

"Our security planning must be able to anticipate and plan in advance," the minister said. The crucial role envisaged for India in the regional and international security environment must focus on the security requirements of the future. "Owing to the complexities of security threats and challenges, defence policy formulation must keep evolving constantly. New dimensions have been added to the security environment around us. Our nation's economic and technological development has to proceed apace with our defence capabilities. At the same time, we need to forge working partnerships to maintain equilibrium of peace and cooperation in the emerging world order."

He said there was enough space India and China to mutually cooperate and develop, while remaining sensitive to each other's concerns. Antony said humanitarian aid worth $ 5 million was provided to China in the aftermath of the devastating earthquake last month.


domain-b.com : Special cell set up to counter growing threat to space assets

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The west has not been 'sitting around'. NASA is actually planning a moon mission in the next dacade.
The reason for the delays is because of the lull in space race after the cold war, not because of any lack of necessity.

Read the part in bold, you have essentially validated my argument there. The race to the moon was about Status and power, and not necessity. Necessity would dictate that the efforts would have continued apace.

Again, the losers argument. I have already busted this line of thinking in a previous post, if you care to read it.

No need to resort to ad hominem attacks and snide comments about double quotes - I would expect better from you after all this time posting.

I did read your argument, and I don't find it convincing since it does not address the fundamental issue that regardless of how much a developing country is spending, there is more it can spend, and "national pride" means that those billions go into a manned mission to the moon, rather than feeding starving children and providing them education.

Its not a losers argument, I just don't see your position as justified, when the best advantages you can come up with are some unknown advantages from the distant future, achievable as Always suggested through cooperation with other countries (if not now then later) balanced against the needs of people today.

Make no mistake, the sort of investment and research that is required to accomplish anything even close to the sorts of things you mentioned will come from collaborative efforts between nations. Eventually India will have to join that collaborative effort. Perhaps you think this is the only way India can be taken seriously and be invited to join that effort?

 

[Flintlock]

Read the part in bold, you have essentially validated my argument there. The race to the moon was about Status and power, and not necessity. Necessity would dictate that the efforts would have continued apace.

Nopes.

The speed with which the moon mission was executed had to do with the space race, not the long term goals of space exlploration.

Now that the cold war is over, space exploration has continued, but at a slower pace.

No need to resort to ad hominem attacks and snide comments about double quotes - I would expect better from you after all this time posting.

It doesn't qualify as an ad-hominem because I questioned your argument, not your character.

I did read your argument, and I don't find it convincing since it does not address the fundamental issue that regardless of how much a developing country is spending, there is more it can spend, and "national pride" means that those billions go into a manned mission to the moon, rather than feeding starving children and providing them education.

That's not true at all.

India's spending on education is dictated by its goals in this area, not by how much money it can possibly spend.

The Indian space program has its own goals, which are as important as any other national program.

Its not a losers argument, I just don't see your position as justified, when the best advantages you can come up with are some unknown advantages from the distant future, achievable as Always suggested through cooperation with other countries (if not now then later) balanced against the needs of people today.

Again, we don't NEED to balance the advantages of the space program against the needs of India's poor because they are simply not in conflict with one another.

India's strategic objectives are as important, and quite different, from India's social objectives.

I feel like a broken record here, repeating the same stuff over and over.

Make no mistake, the sort of investment and research that is required to accomplish anything even close to the sorts of things you mentioned will come from collaborative efforts between nations. Eventually India will have to join that collaborative effort. Perhaps you think this is the only way India can be taken seriously and be invited to join that effort?

Time will tell that. There is no need to predetermine what India can achieve and what it cannot.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Nopes.

The speed with which the moon mission was executed had to do with the space race, not the long term goals of space exlploration.

Now that the cold war is over, space exploration has continued, but at a slower pace.

If the manned mission to the moon was a necessity, then race or no race similar efforts would have continued. It was a "frontier" that had to be conquered, and it duly was, but the efforts have since focused on more necessary and relative activities in Space - not manned missions to the moon.

That's not true at all.

India's spending on education is dictated by its goals in this area, not by how much money it can possibly spend.

The Indian space program has its own goals, which are as important as any other national program.

The goal of any nation should be to provide the most it can for its people, security is a part of that, hence the justification of military expenses. But when you squander resources on a project that provides no tangible gains then you are doing people who could be fed, clothed and receive an education a huge disservice.

That last goal is the only important one in my book.

Again, we don't NEED to balance the advantages of the space program against the needs of India's poor because they are simply not in conflict with one another.

India's strategic objectives are as important, and quite different, from India's social objectives.

I feel like a broken record here, repeating the same stuff over and over.

The needs of India's poor (who could use these billions) are not in conflict with this program? Can you add two plus two?

There is never enough money for development, not even in the developed world. How can you argue that the billions pumped into the moon mission could not help expand poverty alleviation programs or access to health and educational infrastructure?

You sound like a broken record because all you have done is just state that "the needs of the poor are not in conflict with the lunar mission" - you haven't explained to me how that child going to bed hungry, never getting an education, and farmers killing themselves, are compensated by a lunar mission?

Time will tell that. There is no need to predetermine what India can achieve and what it cannot.

Time will tell indeed.

In the meantime the actions and experiences of other nations with space programs tell a lot.

 

[Flintlock]

If the manned mission to the moon was a necessity, then race or no race similar efforts would have continued. It was a "frontier" that had to be conquered, and it duly was, but the efforts have since focused on more necessary and relative activities in Space - not manned missions to the moon.

If you feel like it, please do look up the list of upcoming manned missions to the moon.

The goal of any nation should be to provide the most it can for its people, security is a part of that, hence the justification of military expenses. But when you squander resources on a project that provides no tangible gains then you are doing people who could be fed, clothed and receive an education a huge disservice.


That last goal is the only important one in my book.

Well then we better just disagree on that one.

The needs of India's poor (who could use these billions) are not in conflict with this program? Can you add two plus two?

Yes I can, and no, they're not.

There is never enough money for development, not even in the developed world.

Then please ask the developed world to stop spending in space exploration and put all the money into development.

How can you argue that the billions pumped into the moon mission could not help expand poverty alleviation programs or access to health and educational infrastructure?

Firstly, you have no idea how much India plans to spend on the moon mission (manned or unmanned).
India's manned mission is in 2020, and I daresay that by then India will be a little richer.

You sound like a broken record because all you have done is just state that "the needs of the poor are not in conflict with the lunar mission" - you haven't explained to me how that child going to bed hungry, never getting an education, and farmers killing themselves, are compensated by a lunar mission?

They are not benifitted in the short run. I never claimed that they are.

Is that so hard to understand?

In the meantime the actions and experiences of other nations with space programs tell a lot.

and what do they tell?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Then please ask the developed world to stop spending in space exploration and put all the money into development.

Not space exploration, specifically a manned mission to the moon to bring back some moon rocks.

On the latter, I do disagree with such plans. Probes can pick up rock and soil samples and be far cheaper.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Firstly, you have no idea how much India plans to spend on the moon mission (manned or unmanned).
India's manned mission is in 2020, and I daresay that by then India will be a little richer.

It doesn't matter how rich India is, how many hundreds of million are under the poverty level, how many could be helped with the money going into the lunar program? There is an opportunity cost for every action.

That is the question and comparison you are refusing to answer. Sacrificing the present and future of some Indians may be acceptable to you in the quest for national pride, but as I said earlier, it is callous and a disservice to those who could benefit from this money.

and what do they tell?

International Space Station.

 

[Flintlock]

Not space exploration, specifically a manned mission to the moon to bring back some moon rocks.

On the latter, I do disagree with such plans. Probes can pick up rock and soil samples and be far cheaper.

LOL...why don't we just leave the specifics of space exploration to those who understand it better?

One of the objectives of space exploration is also to make it hospitable for men to survive.