We have with us, Dr. K. Radhakrishnan, Chairman of the Indian Space Research Organization giving his first ever interview at ISRO's rocket port on the eve of a big launch for India where-in India would be launching the Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle- a landmark launch indeed for ISRO.
Dr. Radhakrishnan is a man of fine tastes- a Kathakalli dancer, a devotional music singer, and also, an engineer par excellence.
Q: Dr. Radhakrishnan, why is this launch of the Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle such a big deal?
A: See for the first time we are testing the indigenously developed Cryogenic engine and stage which is an essential part of the Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle.
Q. But what is the big deal about it? You have had so many launches here, why should this one be a landmark for people?
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A: See, this is the culmination of 18 years of research and development by our engineers before we have achieved this. Cryogenics is a very complex technology- you deal with fluids at a very low temperature; and there is a high temperature, then combustion takes place so you have to manage this temperature regime.
Q. Cryogenic technology immediately brings us back to almost 2 decades ago, when Russia I believe denied us technology because America put pressure on them because of the Missile Technology Control Regime. Now is that correct? Were we really denied technology?
A: The early days the plan was that we buy the engine and stage, and then we also acquire the technology but that did not materialize. Then what we did was that the ISRO and the country took a bold step that we will develop it internally. And in 1994 the government gave us the approval for going ahead as a project about 350 crores.
Q. Yes, but it has taken you almost 16- 17 years after the technology was denied. This is not ISRO! ISRO normally does things very quickly. Why did it take you so long?
A. ISRO is ISRO. It is a great team but it's the technology that is very complex.
Q. So was it the materials which gave you trouble?
A. It is material, it is handling of these fluids, there are several such complexities.
Q. And this technology denial that happened did this come as a blessing in disguise for you?
A. Anything which happens is for the good. Since it was not available, we took a bold decision and with full determination we got it. That's how today we are the sixth in the world to have this cryogenic engine technology.Isro6.jpg
Q. So will this help us in breaking into the commercial launcher market because, not just technology denial, at that point when this technology was denied, it was also believed that the U.S. was trying to put pressure on us so that we do not compete with them in the launcher market. Is there any sense in that?
A. What this provides us or for the country is that we can build the GSLV with our own technology, our own materials, by our own people. That is the kind of infrastructural competence that we have developed for building the own launching vehicles.
Q. But it almost looks like a Russian engine...
A. See cryogenics is a liquid Oxygen and liquid Hydrogen. It is a staged combustion cycle that is there. But we have realized it, the Indians have designed it, the Indians have built it, and 75 percent of the materials are from India that is used.
Q. So it is not reverse engineered?
A. Absolutely.
Q. Because it is really one is to one so how do you say it is not reverse engineered? How can you make people believe that you did not copy the Russian design?
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A. It is not one is to one. But if you see the specifications of putting in at that class of the satellite if you work out what is the velocity that needs to be added by the upper stage of the engine- same number you have to provide. So whether it is a Russian engineer designing or Indian engineer designing, it is to the same specification.
Q. We did not get any design from the Russians or any plan...?
A. Not on this.
Q. Nothing? So you really had to work from scratch on this?
A. Basics are known from there you design, you build, but yes a few some materials had to be import it.
Q. Now on this particular launch on the eve of it we are talking, we are also carrying a fine satellite to be placed in the orbit. Is it an experimental satellite? What are the experiments that you are doing?
A. GSAT-4 which is flying on this GSLV-D3 is an advanced technology communication satellite. Advanced in the sense that for the first time we are seeing the use Ka- band transponders that is a regenerative payload. The second is a payload to augment the GPS system which is called GAGAN. And for the first time we are using in this new electric propulsion. So far we were using chemical propulsion for the station keeping of the satellite throughout its life. This time we have used electric propulsion.
Q. First time you are using that ...
A. Yes, which is a very efficient system.
Q. So this is largely an experimental launch?
A. True
Q. It is a landmark experiment. Should- if something goes wrong will you have very long faces or we can you live with that?
A. See the track record of ISRO is the resilience is very high. We always come back.
Q. Hopes are very high that everything will go right. You have done the best you can- both for the satellite and for the launch?
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A. We do our best.
Q. Hope for the best?
A. Yes
Q. And work for the best?
A. Certainly
Q. Dr. Radhakrishnan you explained to us the cryogenic engine, the G-SAT technology. Now let's come back to the technology denial and what implications are there for this particular launch in the world launcher market? Will this mark India's forceful entry into the world launcher market which is a several billion dollar affair?
A. India has a niche in the world launcher market for example; using our own PSLV we have already done two dedicated commercial launches. We are also launching on PSLV, some small satellites as co-passengers. This is already on. If we have GSLV, our first priority is to meet the national target. A small percentage could certainly be used for the international market. And that also gives you a benchmarking where you stand in terms of technology, competence, capability with respect to the rest of the agencies.
Q. Can you tell me more about our costs- are our costs comparable? Are we cheaper than other launchers in this class, are we more expensive, or do we hide the costs?
A. The independent study by an agency in the country showed that our costs were far less as compared to the other agencies. Coming to this GSLV the vehicle cost is 180 crores or about 175-180 crores. The satellite that is flying GSAT-4 cost about 150 crores. Now if you put such a satellite into the orbit, you would be paying anything- double. That is the kind of scenario on cost. Our engineering costs are far as compared to what many other players in the world.
Q. So if I understand what you are saying is, the Indian costs are half of what the international market is.
A. About..
Q. But you are not paying any insurance on this so that takes a huge chunk away. When you factor that in, what happens?
A. See for the Indian launchers we do not take insurance because again the Indian insurance company will be paying for that.
Q. But when you factor that in, what happens to the cost- benefit ratio?
A. No that will be, of course we are still...
Q. You are still above half of the cost?
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A. Half to 75 percent depending upon what we are comparing with.
Q. So other nations need to worry that India is on the verge of entering the global launcher market?
A. I won't say that. See, if you see the world launch market we have a niche of the smaller satellites- not for the heavier ones.
Q. You also have for the first time, I am told, both rocket pads occupied. And people say that you are a very hard task master. You have made ISRO work very hard. PSLV and GSLV will be launched within weeks of each other. Is it really the first time?
A. It is not that I am a hard task master- ISRO is a great team. It does its work with devotion, dedication, and we have today two launch vehicles sitting on the launch pads of Sriharikota. One is with the satellite, the other is in the final testing phase at Bangalore and we would get it soon- like couple of days. And this is the way we want to do in the rest of the year. We have ten satellites to be launched; we have eight launch vehicles getting ready for launch till March 2011.
Q. You say you are not a hard task master but you are a dancer- so are you making people dance to your tunes?
A. It is for them to say (smiles)
Q. It is for the ISRO community to say? But that is what some people say. Is that justified?
A. It might be true.
Q. Will you make them work harder?
A. They do work. I do not need to make them work.
Q. This GSLV for which you will have this landmark launch is also going to be used for inter-planetary missions. What is likely to happen on that front?
A. See when you talk about planetary missions, first and foremost for the moon- Chandrayaan-2 we are planning a satellite, the mass of which will be almost 80 per cent more than Chandrayaan-1. So we will not be able to use PSLV for that. We need to have GSLV which is the first requirement.
Q. You also have studies done on the Human Space Flight Programme. Now which of the launchers are you going to use for the human space flight programme?
A. Finally we will be looking at the GSLV mark III as the human rated vehicle for taking our Indians to the orbit. But there are several steps before that. We need to have unmanned flight testing of the crew module- that is the new one that is going to be worked upon. So our plans initially in the Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV) we will test the crew module. That should happen in four year's time. Subsequently in the GSLV we will go through with the unmanned flight testing- that should happen in the next six years. And by the seventh year we should be there with our own human rated GSLV mark III, taking two Indians.
Q. We are sitting here on India's rocket port at Sriharikota. So when can exactly Indians hope to have an Indian in space from Indian soil, using an Indian rocket?
A. Seven years from now. We need the following: one we need to have the Human rated launch vehicle GSLV mark III. Second one, we need to have a mission control center, we need to have the launch complex with all the necessary modifications to handle the human being. We need to have the astronauts trained, and the new technology the crew model environmental control and support system and the flight suit on which work has started already. So seven years from now.
Q. `Now' means what? Because now is an ambiguous term.
A. Now means when the serious efforts on the project starts. As of now what we have is a pre-project study understanding what is human launch. Now we have a project report which gives the overall plan of the seven years. We are doing that in phases. The first phase that is to put the unmanned crew module; service module in the PSLV four years from now. We expect that the government will give us approval in a couple of months. We are at it.
Q. In a couple of months you hope to have the approval?
A. Yes.
Q. Shall we look forward to a 15th of August announcement?
A. Yes, even before that.
Q. Even before that?! That is fairly big news that you are giving then. We can hope to have the announcement of the human space flight programme extremely soon.
A. Yes we are optimistic, we work for that.
Q. The government is satisfied?
A. Yes we went through an exercise in the year 2009. The government had a team of very eminent experts looking at it from various angles- whether India needs to get it, whether India can do it, and if we do it, what are the benefits? And in that process are we compromising our societal focus. This has been done and the convincing answer is, yes we need to go ahead in this area that is put two Indians in an orbit around the Earth in the next 6-7 years.
Q. How much will it cost us?
A. This total programme is about 12,400 crore Indian rupees, the first phase of which would be a small one.
Q. 12,400 crore rupees is a lot of money?
A. Yes, 12,400 crore Indian rupees over seven years involve setting up of several facilities which are there for a long number of years. Launch pads, the mission control center, astronaut training center- these are all assets on the ground. What goes in the orbit will be about three to four thousand crores.
Q. Radhakrishnan sahib, we still have 400 million people in India living below the poverty line and you are hoping for the government to foot a 12 and a half crore rupee human space flight programme? Can you keep your hand on your heart and say this is the best expenditure that you can do?
A. Let me just recall, 46 years ago the country decided to get into the space programme. The same questions were asked at that time. The main focus was that we should use it for the common man. And today, after 46 years we see that we have given back to the common man and the country much-much more than what has been put into the space programme. This is the study by the independent agency. In terms of the direct benefits accruing from the remote sensing satellite, the communication satellites. So when this program is proved in the human space flight with the long term vision that we have, 30- 40 years from now, probably you could have a new source of energy. You will have several technologies which will be giving benefit to the other sectors in the economy. So these are things to be seen. We have a broad understanding of what are those areas which are important.
Q. So you are not playing with as they say 'toys for big boys'? You are asking for something which at the end of the day, the country would be happy having spent? Is that a fair assessment?
A. We are talking about something that is a logical step- a step that we can certainly do with our today's capability that will give us immense benefits- tangible, intangible and also strategic in the future. And we will be still having our front ranking position in the world comity in space. Today, if you take every other space portfolios, we are there. In space applications everyone says that India is a role model. In satellite launch vehicle technology, we are there in one of the six. In space science we are there- in planetary exploration we are there with Chandrayaan. Human space flight is one area we have not entered and this would take us there.
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Q. You found water on the moon, plus you have also helped in many places in India to find water for the poorest of the poor. In all this next.. looking away from the earth, human space flight- will you forget the Aam Aadmi?
A. This water on the ground- on the Earth is for the Aam admi. The farmer of the country is the beneficiary of the Indian space programme. The fisherman of the country is a beneficiary of the Indian space programme.
Q. So the Aam admi is on your horizon- you are not forgetting him.
A. Aam aadmi is our first priority. Whatever we do, whatever decision we take, our first touch stone is how does it benefit the aam aadmi today or tomorrow.
NDTV: Thanks a lot Dr. K. Radhakrishnan for speaking to us.
