Indian RFP for six new-generation submarines

[Kinetic]

Rs 50,000 crores = $10 billion.

6 subs = $10 billion

1 sub = $1.66 billion.

Rs 50,000 crores = $10.71 billion

6 submarines = $ 10.71 billion

1 submarine = $ 1.785 billion

Each sub at the end would cost us $1.66 billion, but these costs include infrastructure, maintenance, spares, tech etc. These costs include the development costs.

Than what the use of infrastructure built during Scorpene construction? What is the use of that technology? Same we will hear when third-line submarine will come up. What development cost?

Recently Brazil purchased 4 enlarged Scorpene submarines for US$ 10 billion. That's $2.5 billion per submarine. It included much deeper tech transfer.

I guess Brazilian deal includes technology for building nuke submarine.

India might be going in for such tech transfer, and it is also a possibility that this order might not be for existing subs but a new sub which will be custom made for India, like F16IN, Gripen IN, Mig-35, etc. That's because Pakistan is already negotiating for U-214 subs, and these are supposed to be one of the finest subs available. We can't go for subs that are less capable than Pak's subs. We need better subs than them and that is why I believe that this tender might have more than what appears.


Courtesy @ jagjitnatt

What the use of such tech transfer???? Same thing we are hearing from U-209, Scorpene to current submarine deal and we will hear this in future as well. This is another way of getting extra money.

If Pakistan try to buy U-214 and if its good, so why don't we just buy 6 of them on fast track at same price (~$3.5 billion) along with Scorpene to increase number of submarines for our depleting fleet. While both France and Germany are trapped. Rest of the money ($ 7 billion) we can spend on some super-duper next generation high-end cutting edge ultra-modern submarines after 2017!!!

 

[anathema]

ur getting it my dear friend and that too loud and clear
majority over here dnt even have a clue how deep things rae running and where we have reached spclly btw 2000-2010

actually flaming -- for this deal it will not be possible to slip something under the guise of submarine deal. Reason being -- the deal is publicized , budget is set and worst RFP has been sent out to many nations. These kind of under the table deals can only happen if a nation is dealing with another nation directly. The submarine deal can come under scrutiny of indian media whos known to make breaking news if Laloo farts -- this may lead to discovering to other under the radar deals.

Hope you are getting the point.

 

[sam27]

So we can count another 10 years for this deal and keep the non-winners of MMRCA at the bay. First time seen some thing like this from Indian govt.

There is no need to be apprehensive abt it. They are the decision makers. They know better than rest all of us.

 

[air marshal]

India allocates $11 bln to build six new submarines: paper

India's Defense Acquisitions Council has approved the allocation of over 500 billion rupees ($11 billion) for the construction of six new-generation diesel-electric submarines for the Indian Navy in a record military deal, The Times of India reported on Sunday.
This amount exceeds the $9 billion allocated by the Indian government for the purchase of 126 multi-role fighters from abroad for the Indian Air Force, the paper said.

Three of the six submarines will be constructed at Mazagon Docks in Mumbai and one at Hindustan Shipyard Ltd in Visakhapatnam, with the help of a foreign contractor. The other two submarines will either be imported from abroad or constructed at a private shipyard in India, the paper said.

Under the program called Project-75 India (P-75I), apart from stealth, land-attack capability and the ability to incorporate futuristic technologies, all the six new submarines will be equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems to boost their operational capabilities, the paper said.

Conventional diesel-electric submarines have to surface every few days to get oxygen to recharge their batteries. With AIP systems, they can stay submerged for much longer periods, the paper said.
Invitations to a tender for a foreign contractor are expected to be sent to Russia's Rosoboronexport, France's DCNS/Armaris, Germany's HDW and Spain's Navantia, the paper said.
"Navy has reasons to be worried. By 2015 or so, it will be left with just half of its present fleet of 15 ageing diesel-electric submarines - 10 Russian Kilo-class, four German HDW and one Foxtrot," the paper said.

India allocates $11 bln to build six new submarines: paper | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

 

[flaming arrow]

actually flaming -- for this deal it will not be possible to slip something under the guise of submarine deal. Reason being -- the deal is publicized , budget is set and worst RFP has been sent out to many nations. These kind of under the table deals can only happen if a nation is dealing with another nation directly. The submarine deal can come under scrutiny of indian media whos known to make breaking news if Laloo farts -- this may lead to discovering to other under the radar deals.

Hope you are getting the point.

yes buddy iam getting what ur saying that is why i said in the very begining that if u think that we are going to buy only 6 subs we are mistaking..rest all will stay under wraps of secrecy

 

[Nishan_101]

Was it possible if (which is not possible due to un-availability of funds) funds are available to PN, then they might gone for 6 Scorpion and 6 Type-214. And can easily stop Germans and French for signing a deal with the IN.
Please post your replies.

 

[Ishan]

We shud go for Type 214 German Submarine

 

[Archie]

India Looking for Additional Submarines

Infodefensa relays a Negocios newspaper report [Espanol] that Navantia has submitted its S-80 Class currently under development for Spain, in response to an Indian Navy RFP for a follow-on submarine purchase. The purchase would follow India’s 2005 contract for 6 Scorpene Class submarines, and is expected to allocate almost EUR 3 million (about $4.5 billion) to buy another 6 submarines.

Infodefensa adds that bids for the follow-on contract have also been submitted by France’s DCNS (likely the Scorpene AIM-2000, or possibly the in-development Marlin Class), Russia’s Rubin (Advanced Kilo Class, note the recently returned Kilo refit, though), and Germany’s HDW (likely the Type 214).

Thanks to DID subscriber Pedro Lucio for his tip and translation assistance. Interestingly, the Negocios article also says that the Government of India had asked Navantia for a proposal to supply up to 7 modern frigates, but Navantia’s leadership decided not to respond after carefully analyzing the requirements, and taking into account its order book for the next few years. See “India Issues RFI for “Stealth Frigates” for more background on that topic. Navantia is currently building frigates for Spain, Norway, and Australia.

INDIA TO KICK-START SUBMARINE ACQUISITION

India Defence Online, New Delhi — The Indian Defence Ministry is expected to iron out the rough spots in the Project 75-i for the Indian Navy involving the French Scorpene submarines, which will improve the underwater combat capabilities of India. The $6 billion programme involving the second line of submarines has been plagued with constant delays.

Project 75-i is three years behind schedule and the six new submarines were to roll out in 2012 onwards, with one submarine being developed per annum. The Indian Defence Ministry has not yet been able to identify a shipyard for this crucial programme in the public or private sector.

The Indian Navy has been pressing the Defence Ministry to opt for a shipyard other than the Mazagon Docks, which has its hands full, for the initiation of Project-75I. Following this, a tie-up with the foreign manufacturer can be started for the manufacturing of the vessels. The RFP (request for proposal) to submarine manufacturers like Rosoboronexport of Russia, DCNS/Armaris of France, HDW of Germany and Navantia of Spain can be issued only after the shipyard is identified.

The project 75-i involves six Scorpene submarines to be built at the Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL) shipyard under a transfer of technology agreement with France’s DCNS for the Indian Navy. The submarines were being acquired under a $3.6 billion contract signed in 2005 and will be commissioned in the Indian Navy from 2012 through 2018. In June 2009, the Project 75-i had fallen 2 years behind schedule and France had hiked up the price of some key components resulting in a per boat price increase from $500 million to $600 million.

Meanwhile, a proposal to fit an additional section in the submarine for vertically launched Brahmos missiles was shelved with the Indian Navy preferring an Air independent propulsion (AIP) unit instead. The Indian Navy wants all the six new submarines to be equipped with AIP systems to boost their operational capabilities, apart from having stealth, land-attack capability and the ability to incorporate futuristic technologies. While conventional submarines need to surface every few days to get oxygen to recharge their batteries, AIP systems can stay submerged for much longer periods.

The Indian Navy desperately needs this second line of submarines because in a few years, the Indian Navy will be left with just five to six of its present fleet of 16 diesel-electric submarines which includes 10 Russian Kilo-class submarines, four German HDW and two virtually obsolete Foxtrot submarines. While India lags behind China and Pakistan in terms of nuclear submarines, it hopes to make its indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant operational in a couple of years. Besides, it is also inducting the Akula-II class attack submarine `K-152 Nerpa’ on the basis of a ten year lease from Russia this year.


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It seems the total price is either 4.5 or 6 billion USD (about 20,000-30,000 crores). Times of India just sensationalized it to increase their TRP as usual.

Thats exactly what i was going to say , simply becoz when the RFI was issued the price for acquring the 6 subs was Rs 30000 crore ,which translate into 6.4 Billion USD at current exchange rate .
And another thing the price of 6 scorpene subs has risen to Rs 21000 crore ie 4.5 Billion USD Mainly on account of price excalation and the fact that navy wants all 6 subs to be equiped with AIP instead of just the last 3 .
Many guys have quoted the price of 10 C17 Globemasters at 5.8 Billion USD , which is both right and wrong , ie currently the fly away cost of each C17 is 220 million USD while you can expect the per unit cost to rise to 300 million USD by the time india gets the delivery in 2014 , the remaining amount is for setting up infrastructure regarding operation mentainence and training as well as the service and upg of aircraft over the timespan of 20 yrs operation
It is similar to the MMRCA deal where the vendor has to provide mentainence over the next 10 yrs.
And yeah TOI Defintilely screwed big time with the price figure

 

[Marxist]

India should go for amur class submarine (russia)

BrahMos on Amur-class Submarine

 

[Lord Snow]

Hi everyone
first post, so here goes -
all the reports i've seen says the pakistan deal is for 3 type 214's and it is still undergoing negotiation - is not signed - yet.....
also the money being allocated is huge for just 6 subs so wat i think is that the winner of this competition is already decided- type 214..... the extra money is for them to cancel the deal with pakistan and make subs for india with tot....
toi quotes the guy saying he wants the subs in india in next 7 yrs and that is only going to be possible if winner is already decided and there r no lengthy trials like those going on for mrca.....

 

[jha]

Hi everyone
first post, so here goes -
all the reports i've seen says the pakistan deal is for 3 type 214's and it is still undergoing negotiation - is not signed - yet.....
also the money being allocated is huge for just 6 subs so wat i think is that the winner of this competition is already decided- type 214..... the extra money is for them to cancel the deal with pakistan and make subs for india with tot....
toi quotes the guy saying he wants the subs in india in next 7 yrs and that is only going to be possible if winner is already decided and there r no lengthy trials like those going on for mrca.....

Very good analysis..but we dont have to spend that much money to stop pakistan from getting the subs...thats not how it is done.
This extra money must be for something which cant be made public.
Our Govt. is not stupid to buy something at higher price just to stop pakistan from getting it

 

[Ras]

Just playing the devil's advocate...now the MRCA competition is about to get over and along with it the associated leverage in defense deals,India has started the next 10 billion competition to keep countries on the hook and for continued leverage.

 

[jha]

Jha ji TOT to any weapons platform is not entirely useless...first of all we all know it makes us immune to sanction..dont know if many know or not but during kargil war we were refused parts for our sea harriers which had affected the operational capabilty..apart from that the tech for AIP propulsion is required in future we would want make something on our own too if the need arises..apart from that this incredibly high price could be beacuse:

making up of infrastructure,training,life cycle cost.it may be possible that deal includes the cost of MLU also.

as i have mentioned already do you really think it just 6 subs looking at the future with 3 Aircraft carriers..the delivery these subs would match that to the delivery of IAC-1 & IAC-2

Obvious reasons new generation subs would incorporate the best of what we get from all the world..french,indian,isreali and what not
This news is old its just this that the price has come in for the first time..n yes last but not the least
agar dulha khana kha raha hain toh barati bhi toh kuch kahenge

you are right ...came through this old article (courtesy BR )...in which it clearly says india is planning to make 12 subs on its own when Project-75 and 75-I are over..

Navy worried about submarine force depletion​

The Indian Navy is viewing with concern the likely depletion of the strength of its submarine fleet, in the event of any further delays in beginning the construction of a second line of submarines. This would compound the already delayed acquisition of boats due to the hold-ups in the construction of the first of its six Scorpene submarines.

The navy’s submarine strength is projected to fall by 30 per cent in 2015 and 50 per cent in 2020, at the current pace of the acquisition process.

The Defense Acquisition Council (DAC), which met on Tuesday to discuss the issue of identification of shipyards for the purpose of building the second line of submarines, failed to reach a decision and has delayed the initiation of a process that is anyhow tedious and complicated.

The navy currently operates 16 submarines, of which two are Foxtrot class boats, acquired in 1967 and described by one defense ministry source as ‘museums’. “We’ve already operated these two boats for two and a half times their scheduled lives,” he said, hoping for a decision from the DAC that would prevent further delays in submarine construction.

India has a 30-year plan for acquiring 24 submarines, which was approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security in 1999. The acquisition was divided into three batches, with six Scorpene submarines to be acquired under Project 75, six more submarines with, as yet, undefined specifications to be built under Project 75 (India) and the remaining 12 to be constructed indigenously, under the presumption that by the time construction were to begin on the last batch, India would have acquired the expertise and technology to build the submarines independently.

Although the construction of the six Scorpene submarines was planned for the period 2000-2012, the first of the lot is yet to be completed and has been delayed by around two years. According to current projections, the six boats will not be completed before 2017. “There’s already a delay of ten years. At the current state of affairs, there will be an amplified gap between the required and available fleet strength,” said the source, adding, “Even if the process is initiated now, it could still be a couple of years or more before construction actually begins. That’s why its critical to decide this issue.”

This delay notwithstanding, the navy would like the government to initiate work on Project 75 (India) by identifying shipyards for the construction of the next batch of six submarines. Once the shipyard is identified, the navy will then provide its requirements of the planned vessels after which, the onus will be on the shipyard to search for and tie-up with foreign or domestic collaborators, who can provide the expertise and technology in the construction of the submarines.

The shipyards under consideration are likely to include Mazagaon Docks Limited, Mumbai, Garden Reach Shipbuilders, Kolkata, Hindustan Shipyard Limited in Visakhapatnam, and Cochin Shipyard Limited in Cochin. Larsen and Toubro’s Ennore shipyard near Chennai could also figure as a contender.

The designated shipyard would need to have the infrastructure and expertise to handle such a task, which may require additional investment and time. Of the above, Mazagaon Docks Limited and Hindustan Shipyard Limited are seen as being the stronger players in this regard. But the former is perceived as having its hands full, with the construction of the Scorpenes taking place there.

The navy’s strength of 130 vessels is already under the sanctioned number of 140. Of the 16 submarines, two are Foxtrot class, four HDW submarines and 10 Kilo class boats. The navy has called the present induction rate of three to four vessels ‘inadequate for maintaining (our) present force levels’, according to a statement made earlier this month.

Navy worried about submarine force depletion | StratPost

 

[Spitfighter]

The navy will probably end up refurbishing its existing submarines to extend their service length for a few years. Eventually though, with all these acquisitions, our navy will be quite formidable in another decade or so.

 

[Choppers]

Old Article

Indigenous AIP Submarine in 4-5 yrs​

04 October 2008

New Delhi: The Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) hopes to develop an indigenous Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) submarine in four to five years, chief controller, Research and Development, A Sivathanu Pillai has said.

Research and development work was going on at the DRDO Naval Material Research Laboratory (NMRL) in Mumbai to develop hydrogen-based fuel cells for the diesel-powered submarines, Pillai told mediapersons in Kochi on Friday.

“NMRL already has developed number of fuel cells,” Pillai, who was at Trikkakara near Kochi in connection with a national symposium at the Naval Physical and Oceanographic Laboratory (NPOL), said.

Diesel power submarines will have to surface everyday for air, while the hydrogen based technology is new and presently not operational anywhere in the world.

“It is being developed by one or two countries. We are also going to develop that technology and that will be installed in the diesel submarines,” he said.

The hydrogen based technology could enable submarines operate for long duration, may be 20 to 25 days under water, he said.

To a query, he said while Pakistan got AIP developed by France last month under the deal to purchase the Agosta submarines, India would be able to to develop the technology indigenously.

India may also go in for AIP system from France or some other countries for the six submarines that are being constructed at Mazgaon.

“But, we are not interested in that system and want a better system that is based on hydrogen,” Pillai said. — DD News

http://www.theistimes.com/indegenous-aip-submarine-in-4-5-yrs/