Indian RFP for six new-generation submarines

[Mogambo]

Antony is a very honest and down to earth Minister !! but the thing is he goes by book , and it inevitably causes delays -- that is not the need of the hour ! my two cents.

He just wanna save his image while country goes to hell. We urgently need a strong and quick defence minister, someone like P. Chidambaram or Kapil Sibal.

 

[jha]

Yeah. May be we have got French to build a hull for us for SSNs...
If that is the case then i would like Russia to win..

 

[kashith]

till date antony has been the best defence minister if iam to give my personal view he has broken the vicious circle of midlle men surrounding evry military deal which looks to then like a pie..but trust me we also at times get a way to high looking at high prices..specially for this deal the high prices just cannot go sky rocketing high beacuse of corruption only..my 2 cents on this

Then there must be somthing which is not visible in the deal.Lets see,taking into account inflation of 10% for 5 years,and current cost to be 450 mil for type u-214, we get 675 mil for each boat.now that comes to 4.05 billion.something is wrong..

 

[sam27]

Wt a master stroke.
1) The three prime Contenders would be German, French and Russian.
2) The deal is not happening overnight. It will take atleast 15-20 years to conclude.
3) Hence, if IAF honors the contract to any party, especially Americans, nobody else would be offended.
4) 4 of them to be build in India, so more jobs etc.
5) Also, we would be able to leverage in geo-political arena.
6) Time to lock-in new technology at present day.
7) More lobbying for UPA govt, unless the present govt gets toppled because than the deal might no go thru (if we have some other party in power).
8) More add-ons and other lucrative products on offer.
9) Importantly security of the nation.
10) Ofcourse, kickbacks for our politicians.

 

[indian navy]

Then there must be somthing which is not visible in the deal.Lets see,taking into account inflation of 10% for 5 years,and current cost to be 450 mil for type u-214, we get 675 mil for each boat.now that comes to 4.05 billion.something is wrong..

cant you see what is going with china and Pakistan if we don't take step now then when will be take

it is very urgent we should take all the steps to provide all the needs of our force

we are late in mmrca ,lca,missile tech so when our guys will open eyes

good steps

 

[flaming arrow]

Flaming arrow , i would have agreed with you on the bigger picture ! But the problem over here is - the deal is publicized and the amount/budget declared and further there is an RFP between countries...so you see any under the table between two coutries in the guise of submarine project is not going to work out. There is just too much transperancy for a journalist to dig out details if he/she choose to !!
If the deal was a FMS sort of deal -- then sure lots of scope for under the table deals involving complex technologies.

Call it luck,coincidence or the smartness of few unknown men sitting in north south block here we have to see the bigger picture leave corruption angle aside for sometime...we have the MRCA deal running hot on the airforce front,and now after the french scorpian subs we have this again almost the same vendors who have applied for MRCA will be contesting here..america is out this deal coz they only make nuclear subs..leaving the french,russies and the germans...now trust me the decision of mrca deal will in my personal view affect the selection here on this front as the stragetic alliance with nation competing will have to be maintained..Again do you think in mrca the russian mig-35 is gonna win but can we have neglected like this in our aviation industry so we gave them the new orders of sukhoi..if u notice the deal which has been finalised is again very expensive as they will come with upgardes have no doubts about it read this

A high-level team from Rosoboronexport of Russia will visit India this month to finalize the technical aspects of the upgrade program for the Su-30 MKI fighter.

Avionics and radar are two major systems likely to be improved. A technical team from the Defense Research and Development Organization, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and the Indian Air Force (IAF) will represent the Indian side.

A source tells AVIATION WEEK that upgrade discussions have been underway for the last two years. Russian bureaucratic procedures are said to be the main cause for the delay, while the Indian side is said to be putting pressure on the Russians to wind up the talks quickly.

“Nearly 100 Su-30 MKIs will come for [upgrade] during overhaul,” the official says. “Every 10 years various systems need to be upgraded to current standards. However, the latter aircraft that are still to join the IAF will not be included in this module. They will probably come for a second stage upgrade later.”

The IAF version of the BrahMos supersonic missile is expected to join the Su-30 MKI soon.

Meanwhile, another Russian team is set to visit India this month to finalize the purchase of 42 additional Su-30 MKIs for the IAF. These are beyond those already contracted by HAL from Russia under license production. The Sukhois are built under license at HAL’s five divisions — Nasik, Koraput, Hyderabad, Lucknow and Korwa — and are later assembled, integrated, test flown and delivered from the HAL Nasik Division. Fifty Sukhois initially came from Russia between 2002 and 2005.

“These additional platforms are expected to be delivered after the completion of 140 + 40 aircraft by 2015 under the compressed delivery schedule program,” the official said. “Five divisions of HAL will be participating in this raw material phase manufacturing of additional Sukhois.”

HAL’s deliveries began in 2004-2005, and so far 74 Sukhois have been rolled out from the Nasik Division. HAL expects to deliver 28 aircraft this year. The fighter is currently priced at Rs 240 crore ($51.4 million) and it will climb to about Rs 330 crore when the additional orders come in. The total value of those orders might go beyond Rs 15,000 crore considering the spare, engines, and ground handling equipment.

Russia, India To Finalize Fighter Upgrade | AVIATION WEEK
Now with the russians compensated we are left with europeansfrench and the americans... MRCA will not be the hornet alone it will either be a split order or it goes to Typhoon..so left are the french..and i think they will get the compensation with this deal..
not just this deals like these help in economic strangualtion of pakistan which are denies deals of avionics and now engines..its all the part of the game

 

[sam27]

cant you see what is going with china and Pakistan if we don't take step now then when will be take

it is very urgent we should take all the steps to provide all the needs of our force

we are late in mmrca ,lca,missile tech so when our guys will open eyes

good steps

Precisely. Even more, it is time to play wise rather than rogue. We will get wt we want but also, a question arises, wt after MMRCA? how wld we keep this countries luring towards India and at the same time get the things done. trust me, if we play well, we can bet U.N seat here. Alot of other things as well, like opposing any anti-india movement and wt all. They know, to keep the factories running, somebody has to buy their subs, especially Euro. I bet their eyes would be wide open after seeing this report. And cost?? at present our GDP is $1.3 trillion and by 2020+, it would definitely exceed. So cost financing wont be a big problem.

 

[indian navy]

Precisely. Even more, it is time to play wise rather than rogue. We will get wt we want but also, a question arises, wt after MMRCA? how wld we keep this countries luring towards India and at the same time get the things done. trust me, if we play well, we can bet U.N seat here. Alot of other things as well, like opposing any anti-india movement and wt all. They know, to keep the factories running, somebody has to buy their subs, especially Euro. I bet their eyes would be wide open after seeing this report. And cost?? at present our GDP is $1.3 trillion and by 2020+, it would definitely exceed. So cost financing wont be a big problem.

shhhh keep silence somebody will listen

 

[SpArK]

Rs 50,000 crores = $10 billion.

6 subs = $10 billion

1 sub = $1.66 billion.

Each sub at the end would cost us $1.66 billion, but these costs include infrastructure, maintenance, spares, tech etc. These costs include the development costs.

Recently Brazil purchased 4 enlarged Scorpene submarines for US$ 10 billion. That's $2.5 billion per submarine. It included much deeper tech transfer.

India might be going in for such tech transfer, and it is also a possibility that this order might not be for existing subs but a new sub which will be custom made for India, like F16IN, Gripen IN, Mig-35, etc. That's because Pakistan is already negotiating for U-214 subs, and these are supposed to be one of the finest subs available. We can't go for subs that are less capable than Pak's subs. We need better subs than them and that is why I believe that this tender might have more than what appears.


Courtesy @ jagjitnatt

 

[falconfx]

India Looking for Additional Submarines

Infodefensa relays a Negocios newspaper report [Espanol] that Navantia has submitted its S-80 Class currently under development for Spain, in response to an Indian Navy RFP for a follow-on submarine purchase. The purchase would follow India’s 2005 contract for 6 Scorpene Class submarines, and is expected to allocate almost EUR 3 million (about $4.5 billion) to buy another 6 submarines.

Infodefensa adds that bids for the follow-on contract have also been submitted by France’s DCNS (likely the Scorpene AIM-2000, or possibly the in-development Marlin Class), Russia’s Rubin (Advanced Kilo Class, note the recently returned Kilo refit, though), and Germany’s HDW (likely the Type 214).

Thanks to DID subscriber Pedro Lucio for his tip and translation assistance. Interestingly, the Negocios article also says that the Government of India had asked Navantia for a proposal to supply up to 7 modern frigates, but Navantia’s leadership decided not to respond after carefully analyzing the requirements, and taking into account its order book for the next few years. See “India Issues RFI for “Stealth Frigates” for more background on that topic. Navantia is currently building frigates for Spain, Norway, and Australia.

INDIA TO KICK-START SUBMARINE ACQUISITION

India Defence Online, New Delhi — The Indian Defence Ministry is expected to iron out the rough spots in the Project 75-i for the Indian Navy involving the French Scorpene submarines, which will improve the underwater combat capabilities of India. The $6 billion programme involving the second line of submarines has been plagued with constant delays.

Project 75-i is three years behind schedule and the six new submarines were to roll out in 2012 onwards, with one submarine being developed per annum. The Indian Defence Ministry has not yet been able to identify a shipyard for this crucial programme in the public or private sector.

The Indian Navy has been pressing the Defence Ministry to opt for a shipyard other than the Mazagon Docks, which has its hands full, for the initiation of Project-75I. Following this, a tie-up with the foreign manufacturer can be started for the manufacturing of the vessels. The RFP (request for proposal) to submarine manufacturers like Rosoboronexport of Russia, DCNS/Armaris of France, HDW of Germany and Navantia of Spain can be issued only after the shipyard is identified.

The project 75-i involves six Scorpene submarines to be built at the Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL) shipyard under a transfer of technology agreement with France’s DCNS for the Indian Navy. The submarines were being acquired under a $3.6 billion contract signed in 2005 and will be commissioned in the Indian Navy from 2012 through 2018. In June 2009, the Project 75-i had fallen 2 years behind schedule and France had hiked up the price of some key components resulting in a per boat price increase from $500 million to $600 million.

Meanwhile, a proposal to fit an additional section in the submarine for vertically launched Brahmos missiles was shelved with the Indian Navy preferring an Air independent propulsion (AIP) unit instead. The Indian Navy wants all the six new submarines to be equipped with AIP systems to boost their operational capabilities, apart from having stealth, land-attack capability and the ability to incorporate futuristic technologies. While conventional submarines need to surface every few days to get oxygen to recharge their batteries, AIP systems can stay submerged for much longer periods.

The Indian Navy desperately needs this second line of submarines because in a few years, the Indian Navy will be left with just five to six of its present fleet of 16 diesel-electric submarines which includes 10 Russian Kilo-class submarines, four German HDW and two virtually obsolete Foxtrot submarines. While India lags behind China and Pakistan in terms of nuclear submarines, it hopes to make its indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant operational in a couple of years. Besides, it is also inducting the Akula-II class attack submarine `K-152 Nerpa’ on the basis of a ten year lease from Russia this year.


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It seems the total price is either 4.5 or 6 billion USD (about 20,000-30,000 crores). Times of India just sensationalized it to increase their TRP as usual.

 

[Kinetic]

Wt a master stroke.
1) The three prime Contenders would be German, French and Russian.
2) The deal is not happening overnight. It will take atleast 15-20 years to conclude.
3) Hence, if IAF honors the contract to any party, especially Americans, nobody else would be offended.
4) 4 of them to be build in India, so more jobs etc.
5) Also, we would be able to leverage in geo-political arena.
6) Time to lock-in new technology at present day.
7) More lobbying for UPA govt, unless the present govt gets toppled because than the deal might no go thru (if we have some other party in power).
8) More add-ons and other lucrative products on offer.
9) Importantly security of the nation.
10) Ofcourse, kickbacks for our politicians.

Well said dude. But your last assumption seems to be most accurate.

 

[jha]

India Looking for Additional Submarines

Infodefensa relays a Negocios newspaper report [Espanol] that Navantia has submitted its S-80 Class currently under development for Spain, in response to an Indian Navy RFP for a follow-on submarine purchase. The purchase would follow India’s 2005 contract for 6 Scorpene Class submarines, and is expected to allocate almost EUR 3 million (about $4.5 billion) to buy another 6 submarines.

Infodefensa adds that bids for the follow-on contract have also been submitted by France’s DCNS (likely the Scorpene AIM-2000, or possibly the in-development Marlin Class), Russia’s Rubin (Advanced Kilo Class, note the recently returned Kilo refit, though), and Germany’s HDW (likely the Type 214).

Thanks to DID subscriber Pedro Lucio for his tip and translation assistance. Interestingly, the Negocios article also says that the Government of India had asked Navantia for a proposal to supply up to 7 modern frigates, but Navantia’s leadership decided not to respond after carefully analyzing the requirements, and taking into account its order book for the next few years. See “India Issues RFI for “Stealth Frigates” for more background on that topic. Navantia is currently building frigates for Spain, Norway, and Australia.



=======================================



It seems the total price is 4.5 billion USD (about 20,000 crores). Times of India just sensationalized it to increase their TRP as usual.

well this is more likely....

 

[anathema]

Call it luck,coincidence or the smartness of few unknown men sitting in north south block here we have to see the bigger picture leave corruption angle aside for sometime...we have the MRCA deal running hot on the airforce front,and now after the french scorpian subs we have this again almost the same vendors who have applied for MRCA will be contesting here..america is out this deal coz they only make nuclear subs..leaving the french,russies and the germans...now trust me the decision of mrca deal will in my personal view affect the selection here on this front as the stragetic alliance with nation competing will have to be maintained..Again do you think in mrca the russian mig-35 is gonna win but can we have neglected like this in our aviation industry so we gave them the new orders of sukhoi..if u notice the deal which has been finalised is again very expensive as they will come with upgardes have no doubts about it read this

Russia, India To Finalize Fighter Upgrade | AVIATION WEEK
Now with the russians compensated we are left with europeansfrench and the americans... MRCA will not be the hornet alone it will either be a split order or it goes to Typhoon..so left are the french..and i think they will get the compensation with this deal..
not just this deals like these help in economic strangualtion of pakistan which are denies deals of avionics and now engines..its all the part of the game

Flaming -- i was not refering to corruption as that is least of my worries. I think corruption is a given , it has to happen (over here).... i was talking about making a deal but in the guise of that deal slip something else....For example (purely my brain farting) -- Barak or Phalcon deal for XX amount of dollars is not just that deal but also includes intelligence equipment which cannot be published to outside world --see the point.

With regards to your other point , yeah i agree with you principally in the sense that India will use this is a bargaining chip to ease of the pressure of MRCA decision...

 

[brahmastra]

give order to germans, they build best subs.

they might rethink selling subs to pak as France did in few deals.

 

[flaming arrow]

Flaming -- i was not refering to corruption as that is least of my worries. I think corruption is a given , it has to happen (over here).... i was talking about making a deal but in the guise of that deal slip something else....For example (purely my brain farting) -- Barak or Phalcon deal for XX amount of dollars is not just that deal but also includes intelligence equipment which cannot be published to outside world --see the point.

With regards to your other point , yeah i agree with you principally in the sense that India will use this is a bargaining chip to ease of the pressure of MRCA decision...

ur getting it my dear friend and that too loud and clear
majority over here dnt even have a clue how deep things rae running and where we have reached spclly btw 2000-2010
Plain and blunt these deals apart from increasing our capabilty aims at simply denying pakistan evrythng and anythng which they plan to put against us..thats pure chanakya niti