Indian Political Corner | All Updates & Discussions.

[Soumitra]

1. I don't hate Modi or Shah. I just think they are inept.

That is your opinion and not the opinion of millions who elected him with a higher majority in 2019. In a democracy electoral wins trumps opinions.

2. Fact stands - what is Gujarat's contribution to the national exchequer - why is it 1/8th that if neighboring Maharashtra?

Maharashtra is a bigger state than Gujarat. Plus the companies have their headquarters in Mumbai so the taxes are paid there even if work happens elsewhere. Mukesh Ambani will earn billions from Jamnagar Refinery but he will pay income tax in Mumbai.

3. Tourists - how many of these tourists are from within Gujarat and how many tourists are from all across the country and world? Are there any 3/4/5 star hotels in the vicinity? Movie halls? Museums? Tourism needs an ecosystem - not a statue.

Again the numbers speak for themselves. Average of 15000 visitors per day. Not all will be Gujratis.

As for attractions near the statue

https://statueofunity.guide/places-to-visit-near-statue-of-unity.html

Hotels
https://statueofunity.guide/hotels-near-statue-of-unity.html

4. Bullet train - let's see. Would be nice to see it complete.

It will happen. Modi got the statue built in time. He launched the highly successful Swacch Bharat Mission.

Enough talk about Gujarat. Why don't you comment on the on ground cadre of BJP

BJP will always go to the grassroots. Before loksabha election at the village level list of people who benefitted from any central government schemes was prepared and they were used as on-the-ground mouthpieces of the party. A Modi or Amit Shah may address a rally for thousands of people but many people may not be able to hear it. A Janakibai would go door to door and tell her neighbours that she got an LPG cylinder under the Ujwalla Yojana.

People like @xeuss, @ChennaiDude or @The_Showstopper would call her a Sanghi and lament the death of secularism when BJP wins the election. They fail to understand that BJP doesn't win only on basis of anti-muslim rhetoric, the Janakibais and Hansmukhlals who benefitted from various schemes prove to be a very crucial extra plus. They easily add 20% additional vote which tips the balance.

Would you consider Jankibais and Hansmukhlals to be Sanghis because they see something which you cant see

 

[Jackdaws]

That is your opinion and not the opinion of millions who elected him with a higher majority in 2019. In a democracy electoral wins trumps opinions.


Maharashtra is a bigger state than Gujarat. Plus the companies have their headquarters in Mumbai so the taxes are paid there even if work happens elsewhere. Mukesh Ambani will earn billions from Jamnagar Refinery but he will pay income tax in Mumbai.


Again the numbers speak for themselves. Average of 15000 visitors per day. Not all will be Gujratis.

As for attractions near the statue

https://statueofunity.guide/places-to-visit-near-statue-of-unity.html

Hotels
https://statueofunity.guide/hotels-near-statue-of-unity.html



It will happen. Modi got the statue built in time. He launched the highly successful Swacch Bharat Mission.

Enough talk about Gujarat. Why don't you comment on the on ground cadre of BJP



Would you consider Jankibais and Hansmukhlals to be Sanghis because they see something which you cant see

1. Not really. In a democracy the opinion of every and all citizens matter. That's why it is a democracy

2. One swallow doesn't make a summer. 38% to 4.5% is a huge difference. Maharashtra population is 112 million, Gujarat is 60 million. Companies like Adani, Amul, Arvind Textiles are based in Gujarat. Karnataka is about the same size as Gujarat - so why does it contribute double the tax?

3. No, the only numbers that speak for themselves are economic numbers when it comes to tourism.

Thanks for giving me list of hotels which are mostly all an hour's drive from the Statue. Once again proving my point. You said "not all will be Gujarati" - what's the breakup?

Yes, BJP has good cadre. It's been built over the years. I don't consider all to be Sanghis.

 

[Bilal9]

Bhai, I agree with most of your argument. Where I disagree is about micro-finance because it will never bring most people out of poverty. Lending out small amounts for some immediate small need will not work. I don't know if Bangladeshi micro-finance corporations ( Grameen Bank ? ) charge interest but in India ever since NBFCs like SKS Microfinance began operations, more and more farmers have committed suicide because of debt bondage. To provide a staggering fact, just between 1995 ( two years prior to SKS's start ) and 2015 more than 300,000 farmers committed suicide.

I don't believe we should attribute farmer suicides to Micro finance. In fact - Grameen (and Dr. Yunus) started micro-finance with his own capital to ensure that Mahajan money lenders did not exploit poor people by charging usurious rates of interest. Grameen's interest rates are reasonable in Bangladesh and payback of loans is by using peer pressure (usually ten of the borrower's neighbors are responsible as a team) since there is no collateral.

I don't know the details of Grameen in India, which is a collaborative venture between CITIBank and Grameen Foundation. But apparently it is popular in Southern and Western Indian states, not so much in say, BIMARU states, for obvious reasons.

https://grameenfoundation.org/about-us/why-grameen

http://grameencapital.in/about.html

 

[Soumitra]

1. Not really. In a democracy the opinion of every and all citizens matter. That's why it is a democracy

Agreegate number matter, which translates to votes, which translates to seat in Parliament.

2. One swallow doesn't make a summer. 38% to 4.5% is a huge difference. Maharashtra population is 112 million, Gujarat is 60 million. Companies like Adani, Amul, Arvind Textiles are based in Gujarat. Karnataka is about the same size as Gujarat - so why does it contribute double the tax?

Gujarat has its own industry, Karnataka has its own and Maharashtra has its own. Different industry will contribute differently to the country.

3. No, the only numbers that speak for themselves are economic numbers when it comes to tourism.

Again your hatred for Modi-Shah which translates to your hatred for gujraties is showing. Whether the tourist is from Maharashtra or Gujarat how does it matter. Tourist are coming and are bringing the revenue. Just do a quick google search to see how much the statue has earned.

Yes, BJP has good cadre. It's been built over the years. I don't consider all to be Sanghis

Good that you accept it. These cardres will work to make BJP win in 2024

 

[Robbie]

Modi's Shwacch Abhijan was an eyewash - Indian open defecation rate still stands at around 50% despite

Do you have any data or statistics for this?

 

[Bilal9]

By the way,

Here is the latest UNICEF data on open defecation, since Sanghis are so bent on everything being so 'Mahaan' under Gujarati Sanghi rule. I am perfectly willing to call Bangladesh a dump if it qualifies, why can't that be the same in India for some things. But since the Sanghi asked for proof - here it is. India's open defecation rate is still 40% while Bangladesh is zero. We did it in fifteen years, thanks to our NGO's.

http://www.unicefrosa-progressreport.org/opendefecation.html

 

[Soumitra]

By the way,

Here is the latest UNICEF data on open defecation, since Sanghis are so bent on everything being so 'Mahaan' under Gujarati Sanghi rule. I am perfectly willing to call Bangladesh a dump if it qualifies, why can't that be the same in India for some things. But since the Sanghi asked for proof - here it is. India's open defecation rate is still 40% while Bangladesh is zero. We did it in fifteen years, thanks to our NGO's.

http://www.unicefrosa-progressreport.org/opendefecation.html

I think you need to get your eyes checked. You are quoting 2015 data as latest data in 2020.The Swachh Bharat Abhiyaan was launched on 2nd October 2014.show us the 2019 or 2020 data.

 

[Bilal9]

I think you need to get your eyes checked. You are quoting 2015 data as latest data in 2020.The Swachh Bharat Abhiyaan was launched on 2nd October 2014.show us the 2019 or 2020 data.

Please use your superior Sanghi skills to ask for and show recent UNICEF data. I could be wrong but that is the latest UNICEF data available. I don't believe Indian govt. data about this, since it is politically circumspect.

BTW, here are two stories on the failure of the much touted 'Swachh Bharat' programme from late last year. Pardon my thoughts but if Sanghi politicians are just bent on useless showpiece projects like bullet trains and 150 foot tall statues, then real TANGIBLE development will always be far off. There will always be poop on the tracks flying even at 200 plus MPH.

https://thewire.in/environment/even...rat-will-have-failed-its-open-defecation-goal

https://thewire.in/government/swachh-bharat-open-defecation-free-data

 

[Soumitra]

Please use your superior Sanghi skills to ask for and show recent UNICEF data. I could be wrong but that is the latest data available. I don't believe Indian govt. data about this, since it is politically circumspect.

So you present an old data because you don't like the new data which doesn't fit your narrative.

I will do what @Nilgiri said and let you stew in your own juice

 

[jamahir]

Grameen's interest rates are reasonable in Bangladesh and payback of loans is by using peer pressure (usually ten of the borrower's neighbors are responsible as a team) since there is no collateral.

What happens when there is a flood and a rice paddy gets totally submerged ? How will the borrower repay ?

http://grameencapital.in/about.html

Grameen Capital is a first-of-its-kind financial advisory firm with a mandate to catalyze inclusive growth and facilitate capital market access for
impact-focused enterprises across sectors. Our clients are microfinance institutions, affordable healthcare providers, low-cost education firms and other dynamic and sustainable organizations with a social development focus-from early-stage enterprises to established industry leaders.

So this organization is a B2B company, not B2C. And two of the things it mentions - healthcare and education - should anyway be free.

Also, the webpage shows three smiling faces. The reality is not so.

But apparently it is popular in Southern and Western Indian states

The Western state of Maharashtra is one of the most affected farmer suicide spots.

Two articles on this issue :

https://www.indiawaterportal.org/ne...ustrys-business-growth-linked-debtor-suicides

https://www.businessinsider.com/hun...ked-to-microfinance-organizations-2012-2?IR=T

And this article is from 2019. It mentions the "peer pressure" you mentioned :

Federally, the Indian government, till 2015 [ Jamahir - BJP came to power in 2014 ], used to publish annual statistics of farmer suicides in the country. But, for the last four years, the government led by Prime Minister Narendra Modi has blocked its release and publicly said that it does not maintain this data any more.

Kulkarni, from MAKAAM, agrees. "Microfinance institutions have been aggressively targeting women in the most vulnerable regions of the state and often encourage women to make multiple borrowings. What makes women even more vulnerable is that they have very little state support on healthcare, food security and pension."

Last month, Maharashtra, ruled by Modi's Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), went to the polls to elect a regional government but issues of agrarian distress were largely absent from the campaigning narrative, which was dominated by issues of nationalism and India's muscular attitude towards rival neighbour, Pakistan.

But the election results showed that voters seem to have registered their anger, with the ruling coalition losing seats in the Vidarbha region, which has been facing an agrarian crisis for decades.

Banking rules do not allow farmers who have running loans to borrow more credit. Hence, indebted families in need of credit often push female farmers to take loans, pushing them deeper into the vicious debt cycle that is now so common across this western Indian region.

The rapid rise of microfinance institutions in India has made this possible. Data released earlier this year showed that India had 93 million microfinance accounts, most of whom were women in self-help groups, a rise of 22 percent from the previous year. Microfinance lending rates are much lesser than those quoted by private money lenders, who thrive in these areas.

The local head of government, Amravati's collector, Shailesh Nawal, said that they have contributed to indebtedness in the region. "Since microfinance loans are easily available, these loans are spent on non-productive usage, like domestic expenses or repayment of other loans. As a result, they don’t lead to income-generation and hence, don't help in the long run."

Kulkarni, from MAKAAM, agrees. "Microfinance institutions have been aggressively targeting women in the most vulnerable regions of the state and often encourage women to make multiple borrowings. What makes women even more vulnerable is that they have very little state support on healthcare, food security and pension."

More than the loan, how it is structured can be problematic for many, said Aarti Bais, of Swarajya Mitra, a grassroots organisation that works with widowed and single women in the region.

Members of the women in the self-help group stand as guarantors for loans issued by microcredit companies. So, when borrowers start defaulting on loans, companies ask these guarantors to pay up instead.

"These guarantors are also women from the same village. So, this acts as a pressure tactic on defaulters," said Bais. For many women, though, this tactic often ends up in humiliation and the indebtedness is turning out to be fatal in some cases.

"There are villages where every woman has loans against her name. The borrowing is pushing women deeper into the debt trap in a way that we might soon see more women killing themselves in the future than men," said Bais.

Things only got worse

One such tale unfolded about 40km (24 miles) from Kadu's village in Ajni, a remote village consisting mainly of the tribal Gond Gowari community.

When 19-year-old Shilpa Mamankar married local man Nilesh, she soon realised that the income from the family's four-acre farm barely met the 11-member family's needs. Mamankar decided to take a $5,500 loan from the bank to buy a pick-up truck that the family could rent out.

People in drought-hit Indian region struggle with health issues

The truck helped make some money but the crops kept failing and losses piled up. Mamankar then took two more loans from microfinance companies.

"Even if they don't want to, sometimes women are forced to borrow loans by the family," her sister-in-law Alka says, gently, sitting on a pile of clothes along a wall of exposed brick.

The loans did not offer much relief; the family started defaulting on the truck loan and three months later, bank officials had confiscated the truck.

Things only got worse. "When the weather did not fail our crops, the government did by offering us such low prices that we barely recovered the costs," explained her father-in-law, Panjabrao.

In India, the government buys crops from farmers at a price called the minimum support price (MSP) when market prices slump.

The family could now no longer pay even the microfinance instalments. The companies started approaching the self-help groups for money. Mamankar, her family says, felt humiliated by this.

Amid these struggles, Mamankar started having mental health issues - her family does not know what but only remembers that she was on medication.

Mamankar's worries were compounded by the growing losses. "She would never be convinced when we told her that we would find a way out," says Alka.

On October 14 last year, Mamankar cooked the family's Sunday lunch, as she always did for her family that included her two daughters - aged nine and five.

The family bonded over lunch and then went on to enjoy a lazy Sunday siesta.

A couple of hours later, Panjabrao, wanting a cup of tea, called out for Mamankar. He received no response; his daughter-in-law was missing from home.

A few hours later, he found Mamankar floating in a well behind the house.

A year later, the family's struggles continue, with debt hanging over their head.

 

[Bilal9]

So you present an old data because you don't like the new data which doesn't fit your narrative.

I will do what @Nilgiri said and let you stew in your own juice

Don't be a useless LAZY Sanghi. Use some of your own cheap Dataplan minutes (which in India I hear is cheapest in the world) to search for the data instead of Kanjoosi moves like asking favors from others. Ball is in your own court.

What happens when there is a flood and a rice paddy gets totally submerged ? How will the borrower repay ?



So this organization is a B2B company, not B2C. And two of the things it mentions - healthcare and education - should anyway be free.

Also, the webpage shows three smiling faces. The reality is not so.



The Western state of Maharashtra is one of the most affected farmer suicide spots.

Two articles on this issue :

https://www.indiawaterportal.org/ne...ustrys-business-growth-linked-debtor-suicides

https://www.businessinsider.com/hun...ked-to-microfinance-organizations-2012-2?IR=T

And this article is from 2019. It mentions the "peer pressure" you mentioned :

Wow - things ARE different in India I guess...

In Bangladesh Micro loans are just that, micro. Typically no more than say $100 dollars or so. And there is much more scrutiny (and extensive analysis prior to fund disbursal) about whether borrowers have the needed skills or wherewithal to pay. Clearly these factors are absent in India and more training is needed to avoid lending amounts that cannot be repaid (and the possible ensuing tragic circumstances).

Here is a paper that discussed this for the Indian situation. (PP.16)

"The answer will at least partly depend on whether either the SHGs established by the program continue to operate – possibly adjusting the services offered to the level of member development – and, related to this, whether beneficiary households will be able to use the one-time injection of credit and capacity to push them on a permanently higher trajectory of economic activity and asset accumulation. Answering this question is beyond the scope of this paper and will require additional information based on group and individual activity after external support had been terminated."

http://documents.worldbank.org/curated/en/473751468268776052/pdf/WPS4886.pdf

 

[Jackdaws]

Agreegate number matter, which translates to votes, which translates to seat in Parliament.



Gujarat has its own industry, Karnataka has its own and Maharashtra has its own. Different industry will contribute differently to the country.



Again your hatred for Modi-Shah which translates to your hatred for gujraties is showing. Whether the tourist is from Maharashtra or Gujarat how does it matter. Tourist are coming and are bringing the revenue. Just do a quick google search to see how much the statue has earned.



Good that you accept it. These cardres will work to make BJP win in 2024

Lol, I don't hate Gujaratis since I happen to be one. What is showing is your complete lack of grasp of India and inability to answer -

1. "Every state has its own economy". I know. The question is - if Gujarat is so successful economically, why is it such a laggard compared to a state with equal seats and equal population like Karnataka? If you don't want to answer - just say so.

Even aggregate numbers and seats in Lok Sabha - if Gujarat was equal to MH, it would still be at 19% at least.

2. Of course it matters where the tourists are coming from. Why advertise Incredible India campaigns in Western Europe and North America and not in Africa? Richer tourists spend more money - this is not rocket science. Except for Guju NRIs and religious tourists, there is absolutely hardly any luxury or leisure toursism in Gujarat.

 

[xeuss]

Again the numbers speak for themselves. Average of 15000 visitors per day. Not all will be Gujratis.

As for attractions near the statue

https://statueofunity.guide/places-to-visit-near-statue-of-unity.html

Hotels
https://statueofunity.guide/hotels-near-statue-of-unity.html

Why was the Statue of Unity built in China and not by Gujaratis themselves?

 

[Soumitra]

Why was the Statue of Unity built in China and not by Gujaratis themselves?

Fake news from JNU

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...-of-unity-being-made/articleshow/65980312.cms

 

[xeuss]

Fake news from JNU

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...-of-unity-being-made/articleshow/65980312.cms

"The bronze cladding work was contracted out by Larsen & Toubro, the engineering firm that has built the statue and surrounding complex, to Chinese foundry Jiangxi Tongqing Metal Handicrafts."

Note that this was a huge contributor to the fiscal trade deficit with China.